Sugar Land Public Transportation

[VicMan]

I think it's time for Sugar Land, Texas to get public transportation.

With Minute Maid being headquartered there, Schlumberger with significant offices there, and with other businesses moving in, Sugar Land is becoming a city of its own. For the convenience of its residents it needs public transportation.

But the question is: How to do it.

*Should Sugar Land join METRO? Or should it found its own transit agency?

*Should the high schools within the city limits (Clements, Dulles, Kempner) be served by transit stops?

*Should the libraries in the city limits (Sugar Land, Mamie George, First Colony) be served?

*Should the airport be served?

*How should it connect with services to Houston and Missouri City?

*Should it convince Stafford, TX to join the agency that it is a part of?

[TheNiche]

All it needs is a Park & Ride service. Model it after The Woodlands' service.

[citizen4rmptown]

I agree with TheNiche, having its own transit agency is a bad idea for the city.

No matter how much Sugar Land expands, it will always have ties to Houston,

so might as well use the same public transportation.

[Jeebus]

Being a bedroom community, Sugar Land has grown into a small city of residents who don't need public transportation. I agree with a P&R into Houston, but nothing more.

Those working at those companies you listed chose to work there, therefore make the choice to drive to their work. I doubt many who live in Sugar Land would use a Sugar Land specific bus service. I would be willing to guess that only an extensive METRO route would have any ridership, and it would probably only be the blue collar service employees that work in those buildings that would be traveling from outside Sugar Land to go to work - and not any Sugar Land residents.

[VicMan]

Those working at those companies you listed chose to work there, therefore make the choice to drive to their work. I doubt many who live in Sugar Land would use a Sugar Land specific bus service. I would be willing to guess that only an extensive METRO route would have any ridership, and it would probably only be the blue collar service employees that work in those buildings that would be traveling from outside Sugar Land to go to work - and not any Sugar Land residents.

In that case, maybe the first steps of public transport would be to add a park and ride and to serve blue collar service workers at those companies, city hall, and possibly at the airport too.

[Fringe]

NO Metro in SL please. Next there will be low income housing and before you know it, SL will be facing the same crime problems as Houston. This is why SL opted out of Metro to begin with. I'll settle for a park and ride.

[VicMan]

NO Metro in SL please. Next there will be low income housing and before you know it, SL will be facing the same crime problems as Houston. This is why SL opted out of Metro to begin with. I'll settle for a park and ride.

Erm, I don't see how that computes. In order for Sugar Land to get more low income housing, city hall would have to rezone whatever land is left for multi-family housing. That wouldn't happen.

Therefore adding METRO to Sugar Land wouldn't cause an abundance of low income housing to appear.

If you recall the thread about Sobti's proposed development, that is regarding an unincorporated part of northeast Fort Bend, not something within the Sugar Land city limits. Sobti's development would be at 16827 Old Richmond Road; that is outside of the Sugar Land city limits, as the map shows:

Sugar Land has its zoning maps available here: http://svrch15.sugarlandtx.gov/website/zoning/viewer.htm

On City Data forums, this is what I proposed:

* Extend the U.S. 59 corridor Park and Ride services to Schlumberger and Sugar Land City Hall

* A local service going from Sugar Land City Hall -> Schlumberger -> Sugar Land Airport -> Sugar Land City Hall (and the reverse)

* A local service following the U.S. 59 corridor to connect Sugar Land City Hall and Schlumberger with southwest Houston

The above I propose would be entire in the Sugar Land city limits when being in Fort Bend County.

Lunatic, how many Sugar Land residents work in Westchase? Would there be enough to justify a park and ride going to Westchase as well?

[TheNiche]

NO Metro in SL please. Next there will be low income housing and before you know it, SL will be facing the same crime problems as Houston. This is why SL opted out of Metro to begin with. I'll settle for a park and ride.

That's not really how it works. There's public transportation in River Oaks, but no low income housing around there. Likewise, Missouri City isn't part of METRO, but that isn't preventing demographic change for the worse. North Katy is a similar situation to Missouri City except that it is within the METRO service area yet doesn't have any bus routes through it. Clearly there are other much more dominant factors at play, such as the quality of the pre-existing housing stock and the nature of commerce within a part of town.

The fact is that even if Sugar Land opted in to the METRO service area, they probably wouldn't get very much service because--aside from P&R--there's just not enough demand for it.

But you illustrate the mentality of the typical Sugar Land voter. That is why METRO will never happen in Sugar Land, nor will a Sugar Land-only transit system ever provide bi-directional service into and out of Houston. Even if it were good for the commercial areas (which I would dispute, myself), Sugar Land is restrained by its voters...a problem that The Woodlands Development Corporation has no issue with, because they control everything.

[VicMan]

Likewise, Missouri City isn't part of METRO, but that isn't preventing demographic change for the worse.

Missouri City doesn't get a lot of METRO service, but it is officially a METRO member city: http://www.ridemetro.org/AboutUs/Default.aspx

But you illustrate the mentality of the typical Sugar Land voter. That is why METRO will never happen in Sugar Land, nor will a Sugar Land-only transit system ever provide bi-directional service into and out of Houston. Even if it were good for the commercial areas (which I would dispute, myself), Sugar Land is restrained by its voters...a problem that The Woodlands Development Corporation has no issue with, because they control everything.

That is until this thread, and the city-data thread, educate Sugar Landers about the possibilities of having a P&R in Sugar Land.

[TheNiche]

Missouri City doesn't get a lot of METRO service, but it is officially a METRO member city: http://www.ridemetro.org/AboutUs/Default.aspx

...ok then. Stafford will serve as an example in place of Missouri City.

That is until this thread, and the city-data thread, educate Sugar Landers about the possibilities of having a P&R in Sugar Land.

Don't count on it.

[VicMan]

...ok then. Stafford will serve as an example in place of Missouri City.

Speaking of Stafford, do you think it would make sense for Stafford to join METRO as well? It is so inter-connected with Houston and Missouri City, both of which are METRO member cities.

Don't count on it.

If Sugar Landers know that this won't cause more low income housing to appear (due to extensive development within the SL city limits and the lack of zoning for multi-family complexes), then I'm sure there would be more people in favor of this.

[TheNiche]

Speaking of Stafford, do you think it would make sense for Stafford to join METRO as well? It is so inter-connected with Houston and Missouri City, both of which are METRO member cities.

Probably not. It's pretty low-density.

If Sugar Landers know that this won't cause more low income housing to appear (due to extensive development within the SL city limits and the lack of zoning for multi-family complexes), then I'm sure there would be more people in favor of this.

I tend to disagree. HAIF and City-data don't have much reach in the grand scheme of things.

[VicMan]

Probably not. It's pretty low-density.

Is it low density in terms of businesses?

From my understanding, compared to similarly-sized cities in METRO, it is not as dense, but it is denser than some of the cities.

In 2000 Stafford had 15,681 people. It has 7 square miles of land. That is 2,240 people per square mile.

Small METRO member cities from most to least dense:

*Southside Place had 1,546 people. It has .2 square miles of land. That is 7,730 people per square mile.

*West University Place had 14,211 people. It has 2 square miles of land. That is 7105.5 people per square mile.

*El Lago had 3,075 people. It has .7 square miles of land. That is 4,393 people per square mile.

*Bellaire had 15,642 people. It has 3.6 square miles of land. That is 4,345 people per square mile.

*Taylor Lake Village had 3,694 people. It has 1.2 square miles of land. That is 3,078 people per square mile.

*Spring Valley Vilage had 3,611 people. It has 1.3 square miles of land. That is 2,778 people per square mile.

*Hedwig Village had 2,334 people. It has .9 square miles of land. That is 2,593 people per square mile.

*Bunker Hill Village had 3,654 people. It has 1.5 square miles of land. That is 2,436 people per square mile.

*Hilshire Village had 720 people. It has .3 square miles of land. That is 2,400 people per square mile.

*Hunters Creek Village had 4,374 people. It has 1.9 square miles of land. That is 2,302 people per square mile.

*Piney Point Village had 3,380 people. It has 2.1 square miles of land. That is 1,610 people per square mile.

*Humble had 14,579 people. It has 9.8 square miles of land. That is 1,488 people per square mile.

*Katy had 11,775 people. It has 10.7 square miles of land. That is 1,110 people per square mile.

[Fringe]

Erm, I don't see how that computes. In order for Sugar Land to get more low income housing, city hall would have to rezone whatever land is left for multi-family housing. That wouldn't happen.

Therefore adding METRO to Sugar Land wouldn't cause an abundance of low income housing to appear.

I realize that unlike Houston, Sugar Land has a pretty good grasp on it's zoning but things can change. Also, what about the areas immediately outside of the incorporated city that will someday probably be a part of SL? Probably unnecessary worry but I'd rather not take any chances thank you. Still would love to see P&R.

[VicMan]

I realize that unlike Houston, Sugar Land has a pretty good grasp on it's zoning but things can change. Also, what about the areas immediately outside of the incorporated city that will someday probably be a part of SL? Probably unnecessary worry but I'd rather not take any chances thank you. Still would love to see P&R.

Yes, P&R should be the starting point for SL, and it would be wonderful for the city. I would encourage your neighbors to make a petition to become a METRO member city so a P&R could happen. I'm listing small METRO member cities, which include Katy and some Clear Lake/Bay Area cities.

All of the local proposals I thought of would be firmly in the city limits. Having service only to Schlumberger, the airport, and city hall would not involve the unincorporated areas. For some reason METRO only serves unincorporated areas in Harris County.

[Trae]

Plano, Texas has mass transit (light rail + bus) and is apart of DART. Sugar Land is like a clone of Plano. Only difference is that it has about 100K less people (Sugar Land does).

[TheNiche]

Is it low density in terms of businesses?

From my understanding, compared to similarly-sized cities in METRO, it is not as dense, but it is denser than some of the cities.

In 2000 Stafford had 15,681 people. It has 7 square miles of land. That is 2,240 people per square mile.

Stafford has a large number of business/industrial parks and churches, as well as a fair bit of vacant land intermingled amonst them. It's not the least bit pedestrian-friendly, very much in contrast with a City like Bellaire or West U, which are completely built out and with more or less gridded street patterns, and because there's a P&R lot right at the boundary between Houston and Stafford, the big prize has already been given away without Stafford participating in METRO's 1% sales tax. There's no incentive for them to join up.

[Jeebus]

Vicman, do you actually know of Sugar Land residents who desire METRO services that would take them into the city? Do you have any docuementation in the form of a scientific survey that proves that a majority of Sugar Land citizens even want METRO services?

Of course this does NOT count P&R services, which we all know would be greatly used.

[VicMan]

and because there's a P&R lot right at the boundary between Houston and Stafford, the big prize has already been given away without Stafford participating in METRO's 1% sales tax. There's no incentive for them to join up.

Looking at this map of the METRO lots: http://www.ridemetro.org/SchedulesMaps/Pdf...-System-Map.pdf

And this map of the City of Stafford: http://www.cityofstafford.com/PDF%20Files/ZoneMap2005.pdf

The West Bellfort Park and Ride is pretty close to the City of Stafford - but it doesn't seem to be exactly on the border.

I can see how it makes Stafford joining METRO a bit less likely. Still, it's not quite the same having to rely on a P&R there versus getting on near Stafford City Hall.

[VicMan]

If by "the city" you mean Downtown Houston, then isn't that what the P&R services would be for? Or are you referring to intra-Sugar Land services (between the airport, Schlumberger, and city hall)?

On City-Data I pointed out that there were plans around 2003 from the Fort Bend County government to install commuter rail to take Fort Bend County-area residents into the Texas Medical Center: http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summa...286-9044560_ITM (Hanson, Eric. "Fort Bend County, Texas, Draws up Commuter Rail Plan." - Houston Chronicle - October 6, 2003)

In 2005 Fort Bend County began a kind of "park and ride" service involving minibuses that would go from the county to Houston employment centers: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headli...ro/5304824.html

Do these points answer your questions?

Vicman, do you actually know of Sugar Land residents who desire METRO services that would take them into the city? Do you have any docuementation in the form of a scientific survey that proves that a majority of Sugar Land citizens even want METRO services?

Of course this does NOT count P&R services, which we all know would be greatly used.

[VOL13]

A small P&R in Sugar Land would be great, by the UH Sugar Land. The W.Bellfort P&R can get too busy.