Can Houston Go Back To The Good Ol' Days Of Architecture?

[crunchtastic]

How exactly do you give documentation to an opinion. All I was doing was stating an opinion and asking a question. Nothing more nothing less.

And I have yet to be persuaded that this is the forum of mature adults in favor of intelligent discussion. It feels like a boys club here. Where if you're not praising the "accomplishments" of Houston, you'll be frowned upon.

I just want to know why everybody seems to have something against improvement.

A friendly tip: drop the defensiveness, but be prepared to defend, if that makes sense. If you're reading only a small portion of the threads and you come away with the idea that this is some boosters club; it is most definitely not.

[memebag]

Please don't take anything I'm saying as a personal attack. I enjoy spirited discussion of architecture and aesthetics. If I get too spirited, I'm sorry. I mean no harm.

Heritage Plaza is very bulky and plain (emphasis on "very"). It looks cheap, and I see no beauty in it. It's wide and fat.

OK, I'm trying to keep up. Bulky, plain, wide, stucco and fat are out. Slender, complicated, Italian renaissance, art deco, elaborate and classic are in.

What about wide, fat, stucco Italian renaissance? Complicated is good, but it has to be at least twice as tall as it is wide (the approximate aspect ratio of Heritage Plaza, an objectively complicated building) to be beautiful.

My "aesthetic" comes from class and taste. Two things that this amazing city's downtown has little of, unfortunately.

I agree Houston has a lack of class and taste. That's one of the things I love about it. It would be dishonest to pretend we were full of class and taste here.

I'm just sick of outsiders saying that Houston is ugly and has no potential for greatness, while I think that this city has all the potential in the world.

But outsiders are right about the ugly.

Jeez, I guess I chose the wrong website to have an opinion.

Not at all. You picked the wrong forum to express an opinion without hearing a different one. A blog is good for single opinions. Fora, not so much.

And I have yet to be persuaded that this is the forum of mature adults in favor of intelligent discussion. It feels like a boys club here. Where if you're not praising the "accomplishments" of Houston, you'll be frowned upon.

Don't take it so personally. Different people have different ideas about what's beautiful and what's ugly. I understand that I have a minority opinion. You might as well.

I just want to know why everybody seems to have something against improvement.

Just because someone disagrees with you they are against improvement? I'm bored with most Italian renaissance and art deco. I can take complicated, tall and slender in moderate doses, but Houston has enough of that for my taste. The world is full of buildings and people I find ugly. I just don't look at them more than I have to.

[mpope409]

A friendly tip: drop the defensiveness, but be prepared to defend, if that makes sense. If you're reading only a small portion of the threads and you come away with the idea that this is some boosters club; it is most definitely not.

This is not the first thread I've participated in. Up until now, I was sure that everybody was open to views. That may be true, but how do you explain me being disrespected almost immediately after my first post?

[mpope409]

Please don't take anything I'm saying as a personal attack. I enjoy spirited discussion of architecture and aesthetics. If I get too spirited, I'm sorry. I mean no harm.

I understand. I guess I took it too personal.

OK, I'm trying to keep up. Bulky, plain, wide, stucco and fat are out. Slender, complicated, Italian renaissance, art deco, elaborate and classic are in.

What about wide, fat, stucco Italian renaissance? Complicated is good, but it has to be at least twice as tall as it is wide (the approximate aspect ratio of Heritage Plaza, an objectively complicated building) to be beautiful.

I'm not saying that all buildings in the downtown area need to be like the ones I'm fond of. I just wish there was more of a mixture of what was put up. Rather than the same old large, imposing structures.

I agree Houston has a lack of class and taste. That's one of the things I love about it. It would be dishonest to pretend we were full of class and taste here.

The city itself does not lack class and taste, but several of Houston's past developers do, in my opinion. I see absolutely no reason why anybody should be against building something that's beautiful. Sure, Houston's "ugliness" might be considered a unique trait to many natives here, but trying to explain to visitors why there's not much nice to look at isn't fun.

Mind you, I wasn't trying to imply that either one of you guys had no class or taste. But hey, I'm a girl, and while the way Houston looks may not bother guys, it sure bothers us.

But outsiders are right about the ugly.

Maybe. Maybe not. What they aren't right about, though, is that Houston doesn't have the potential.

Not at all. You picked the wrong forum to express an opinion without hearing a different one. A blog is good for single opinions. Fora, not so much.

I'm completely open to different opinions.

Don't take it so personally. Different people have different ideas about what's beautiful and what's ugly. I understand that I have a minority opinion. You might as well.

I don't feel that way. Many people believe that had it not been for Houston being fairly unattractive, the city would be even better off than it is now.

Just because someone disagrees with you they are against improvement? I'm bored with most Italian renaissance and art deco. I can take complicated, tall and slender in moderate doses, but Houston has enough of that for my taste. The world is full of buildings and people I find ugly. I just don't look at them more than I have to.

You have a point, and I guess that's not what I meant to say. What I mean is that why does it seem that nobody is open to change?

[jfre81]

Bank of America Center is a fine example of good architecture here, but it's certainly not the norm here in Houston, Texas.

Okay. So Houston has no problem holding the attention of businesses. What about holding the attention of tourists and the media? What about having structures to be proud of? Something beatiful to look at for a change.

Not that I'm comparing, but places like New York and Chicago wouldn't be what they are today if they looked like us.

New York and Chicago were also way ahead of Houston at the time of the Art Deco era etc. This was still a frontier town. All the big 'scrapers here went up in the '70s and early '80s and most anything built in any other city in the same era looks very similar. With the exception of BoA, which I think serves very well for a widely recognizable Houston landmark.

[musicman]

This is not the first thread I've participated in. Up until now, I was sure that everybody was open to views. That may be true, but how do you explain me being disrespected almost immediately after my first post?

making statements like those below might explain it.

You would think that with Rice U's acclaimed architecture program, some of the best would be right here in the city.

Well if that's the case, Houston seems to be the only city that's making such poor decisions.

My "aesthetic" comes from class and taste. Two things that this amazing city's downtown has little of, unfortunately.

[bachanon]

This is not the first thread I've participated in. Up until now, I was sure that everybody was open to views. That may be true, but how do you explain me being disrespected almost immediately after my first post?

actually, it was posts #14 and #17 that started the downhill direction away from polite discussion.

i too wish for more craftsmanship in building projects, especially here in houston. however, it simply isn't feasible in most cases. yes, beautiful architecture and artistic details create a sense of pride and make news, but an investment group or a corporation building a new headquarters will be less concerned with the aesthetics and more concerned with the bottom line for their shareholders. the benefits to the city and perceived value of high style are not, will not be in the foreseeable future, intrinsic to new construction. one can dream though.

another thought, perhaps what we view as artistic detail and high style should change, as memebag has stated? this is one reason i love lake/flato architects. they can take simple elements and ideas to a new level. they've designed buildings that i continue to admire in the same way i adore the espersons buildings (for different reasons).

this building, for instance (not by lake/flato). i'm really enjoying this building. it is complicated, has depth, has a certain level of detail. will people fifty years from now admire the details of this building as we admire the espersons? i realize this may be a leap for some. however, i think there is merit to the thought.

[mpope409]

New York and Chicago were also way ahead of Houston at the time of the Art Deco era etc. This was still a frontier town. All the big 'scrapers here went up in the '70s and early '80s and most anything built in any other city in the same era looks very similar. With the exception of BoA, which I think serves very well for a widely recognizable Houston landmark.

Exactly. So why not make more buildings look as beautiful as BoA. Just my opinion.

making statements like those below might explain it.

You would think that with Rice U's acclaimed architecture program, some of the best would be right here in the city.

Well if that's the case, Houston seems to be the only city that's making such poor decisions.

My "aesthetic" comes from class and taste. Two things that this amazing city's downtown has little of, unfortunately.

Excuse yourself. I was given problems before I said either of those things.

[musicman]

Excuse yourself. I was given problems before I said either of those things.

some of those are in post 8. i don't see anything offensive before that. you're excused.

[mpope409]

actually, it was posts #14 and #17 that started the downhill direction away from polite discussion.

Exactly.

i too wish for more craftsmanship in building projects, especially here in houston. however, it simply isn't feasible in most cases. yes, beautiful architecture and artistic details create a sense of pride and make news, but an investment group or a corporation building a new headquarters will be less concerned with the aesthetics and more concerned with the bottom line for their shareholders. the benefits to the city and perceived value of high style are not, will not be in the foreseeable future, intrinsic to new construction. one can dream though.

I knew I wasn't alone in that aspect.

another thought, perhaps what we view as artistic detail and high style should change, as memebag has stated? this is one reason i love lake/flato architects. they can take simple elements and ideas to a new level. they've designed buildings that i continue to admire in the same way i adore the espersons buildings (for different reasons).

this building, for instance (not by lake/flato). i'm really enjoying this building. it is complicated, has depth, has a certain level of detail. will people fifty years from now admire the details of this building as we admire the espersons? i realize this may be a leap for some. however, i think there is merit to the thought.

I too enjoy that building. The same can be said for much of the architecture in TMC.

I'm not saying that all post modern architecture isn't beautiful, all I'm saying is that a lot of the fine craftsmenship is gone. I'd like to get it back.

[memebag]

I'm not saying that all buildings in the downtown area need to be like the ones I'm fond of. I just wish there was more of a mixture of what was put up. Rather than the same old large, imposing structures.

How could it be more of a mixture? We have examples of just about every style downtown. Don't you mean a different mixture, a mixture that you personally approve of?

The city itself does not lack class and taste...

Sure it does. It was founded by swindlers and built up by big oil, all on a mosquito-ridden coastal plain previously populated by outcast Indians that the other Indians couldn't tolerate. One of our top tourist attractions is a house covered with beer cans. By any objective criteria, Houston lacks class and taste.

... but several of Houston's past developers do, in my opinion. I see absolutely no reason why anybody should be against building something that's beautiful.

But you understand that not everyone shares your taste, right? That there are people who like Heritage Plaza, and people who like Houston's downtown skyline, right?

Sure, Houston's "ugliness" might be considered a unique trait to many natives here, but trying to explain to visitors why there's not much nice to look at isn't fun.

Then why torture yourself? Why do you care so much about what visitors think? They're going to leave soon enough. Let them be.

Mind you, I wasn't trying to imply that either one of you guys had no class or taste. But hey, I'm a girl, and while the way Houston looks may not bother guys, it sure bothers us.

Even if you weren't trying, that's what you imply. Your idea of beauty is built on class and taste, therefore my idea of beauty must not be. But I'm OK with that. I'm not big on "good taste" and I absolutely despise class.

Maybe. Maybe not. What they aren't right about, though, is that Houston doesn't have the potential.

And that potential exists no matter what they think. At least it has so far.

I don't feel that way. Many people believe that had it not been for Houston being fairly unattractive, the city would be even better off than it is now.

You seem to be in a minority in this thread.

You have a point, and I guess that's not what I meant to say. What I mean is that why does it seem that nobody is open to change?

I'm totally open to change, just not the change you want. Plus, I accept the economic realities that produce the buildings you think are ugly.

P.S. I just asked my seven year old daughter what she thought of downtown. She said she likes it, because it makes a lot of people happy to work there.

[mpope409]

For just a minute, let's forget about the past-era architecture.

These are some post modern structures that I find appealing and show a great deal of art, elaboration, and fine work.

Conde Nast Building, New York (a green building, with average post modern materials but great detail and creativity)

Bank of America Center: Atlanta

191 Peachtree Center, Atlanta

Bank of America: Houston (a very fine piece of work, but the ball was dropped for everything else)

Respectively, One Worldwide Plaza and the Carnegie Hall Tower (two fine examples that using brick for post modern structures is still very doable, not to mention beautiful)

What I don't like...

See the trend in these? Their designs are very plain, simple, and uninspiring. Groundbreaking they are not. They look as if a child could build them with their Legos.

[bachanon]

Sure it does. It was founded by swindlers and built up by big oil, all on a mosquito-ridden coastal plain previously populated by outcast Indians that the other Indians couldn't tolerate. One of our top tourist attractions is a house covered with beer cans. By any objective criteria, Houston lacks class and taste.

lmao! this is so true. i love this city and perhaps it is these facts coupled with the people, and the crazy entrepreneurial spirit, that keeps me addicted to this town. awesome statement. still chuckling. thanks!

[Saddleman]

Wow! Transco is uninspiring. And here I was all these years being inspired by it. Boy was I an idiot!

[bachanon]

For just a minute, let's forget about the past-era architecture.

These are some post modern structures that I find appealing and show a great deal of art, elaboration, and fine work.

Conde Nast Building, New York (a green building, with average post modern materials but great detail and creativity)

Bank of America Center: Atlanta

191 Peachtree Center, Atlanta

Bank of America: Houston (a very fine piece of work, but the ball was dropped for everything else)

Respectively, One Worldwide Plaza and the Carnegie Hall Tower (two fine examples that using brick for post modern structures is still very doable, not to mention beautiful)

What I don't like...

See the trend in these? Their designs are very plain, simple, and uninspiring. Groundbreaking they are not. They look as if a child could build them with their Legos.

i disagree on williams tower! i think it is in the same league with some of the towers you say you like. is it the glass that you do not prefer? philip johnson took a page from old school designs and glammed it up a bit. i think it retains the same class as the era in which it gives nod. i can't see how BOA in atlanta is not on par (or less so) than williams tower. i'm wondering if you prefer stone over glass?

[musicman]

[see the trend in these? Their designs are very plain, simple, and uninspiring. Groundbreaking they are not. They look as if a child could build them with their Legos.

the designs are very similar actually just with different exterior materials. i guess they ran out of money on the bank of american building in atl.

[mpope409]

How could it be more of a mixture? We have examples of just about every style downtown. Don't you mean a different mixture, a mixture that you personally approve of?

No. The lackluster structures in downtown highly outnumber the more impressive ones. If it were even then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Sure it does. It was founded by swindlers and built up by big oil, all on a mosquito-ridden coastal plain previously populated by outcast Indians that the other Indians couldn't tolerate. One of our top tourist attractions is a house covered with beer cans. By any objective criteria, Houston lacks class and taste.

That's your opinion, not mine. You seem to praise this whole idea of being outcasted and disliked, but that's not always a good thing.

But you understand that not everyone shares your taste, right? That there are people who like Heritage Plaza, and people who like Houston's downtown skyline, right?

That's a given. I knew that coming on here. But what about those of us who do want something different? Most of you are satisfied with downtown Houston, but what about those who aren't? Shouldn't we be able to enjoy looking at it, too? Our opinions matter just as much as yours.

Even if you weren't trying, that's what you imply. Your idea of beauty is built on class and taste, therefore my idea of beauty must not be. But I'm OK with that. I'm not big on "good taste" and I absolutely despise class.

Take it how you want, but that's not what I was trying to say.

And that potential exists no matter what they think. At least it has so far.

I agree.

You seem to be in a minority in this thread.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out why.

I'm totally open to change, just not the change you want. Plus, I accept the economic realities that produce the buildings you think are ugly.

P.S. I just asked my seven year old daughter what she thought of downtown. She said she likes it, because it makes a lot of people happy to work there.

It's not as if this problem keeps me up at night. No matter whether Houston changes or not, I'm still going to love it more than any place in the world. I just thought I'd start a conversation on something I usually think about.

What I'm saying is that there is no excuse for mediocrity.

[memebag]

Wow! Transco is uninspiring. And here I was all these years being inspired by it. Boy was I an idiot!

You fool! Become expired!

I'm still a little confused, though. My dad worked on a French film about Houston back in the 80s. He said that tons of French people were ga-ga over the Transco Tower. How could a nation with so much class and taste get worked up over such a plain, simple and uninspiring building? Is it like that Jerry Lewis thing?

[mpope409]

i disagree on williams tower! i think it is in the same league with some of the towers you say you like. is it the glass that you do not prefer? philip johnson took a page from old school designs and glammed it up a bit. i think it retains the same class as the era in which it gives nod. i can't see how BOA in atlanta is not on par (or less so) than williams tower. i'm wondering if you prefer stone over glass?

I guess I do prefer stone over glass, but I do like glass. It just depends on what the architect does with the glass. Note, the Conde Nast Building up above.

Transco might have been okay if it wasn't in a city where flat, glass buildings are PLAYED.

[memebag]

No. The lackluster structures in downtown highly outnumber the more impressive ones. If it were even then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I bet we could. I'm really good at this.

That's a given. I knew that coming on here. But what about those of us who do want something different? Most of you are satisfied with downtown Houston, but what about those who aren't? Shouldn't we be able to enjoy looking at it, too? Our opinions matter just as much as yours.

Yes, your opinion matters just as much as mine. Which is: not at all. Unless you're going to pay for a new building, or you've been hired to design one, you will keep wanting something different.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out why.

I'm no genius, but I can't figure it out. What do you mean?

What I'm saying is that there is no excuse for mediocrity.

Oh, I can think of thousands of excuses for mediocrity. I can even think of many good reasons for it.

[mpope409]

I bet we could. I'm really good at this.

Really good at what?

Yes, your opinion matters just as much as mine. Which is: not at all. Unless you're going to pay for a new building, or you've been hired to design one, you will keep wanting something different.

I can only hope that's not true. I can only hope that some city leaders will notice the same problems I do.

I'm no genius, but I can't figure it out. What do you mean?

This is the Houston Architecture Info Forum. I'm positive that most users of this forum are 100% pro-Houston. Okay with just about anything that's put up. If there was a great deal of non-Houstonians here, I'm sure I would not be the minority.

Oh, I can think of thousands of excuses for mediocrity. I can even think of many good reasons for it.

Lol, you got me there. But I just don't understand why Houston has to be so different (that sounds so shallow, but think about what I'm trying to say). I could understand if we were a poor city, but we're far from that. To me, Houston just does not look like the world city that it is.

[memebag]

Really good at what?

Having this conversation. I could have it without you. I'm just that good.

I can only hope that's not true. I can only hope that some city leaders will notice the same problems I do.

As a rule, city leaders don't build skyscrapers.

This is the Houston Architecture Info Forum. I'm positive that most users of this forum are 100% pro-Houston. Okay with just about anything that's put up. If there was a great deal of non-Houstonians here, I'm sure I would not be the minority.

You really ought to read a bit more of this forum, then. You can find just about every possible opinion about Houston here.

Lol, you got me there. But I just don't understand why Houston has to be so different (that sounds so shallow, but think about what I'm trying to say).

I'll try, but you try to listen to what your are actually saying. You want Houston to look less like it does, and more like other cities do. Think about that.

I could understand if we were a poor city, but we're far from that. To me, Houston just does not look like the world city that it is.

Houston looks like a poor city to you? What poor cities have you been looking at?

[mpope409]

Having this conversation. I could have it without you. I'm just that good.

If you say so.

As a rule, city leaders don't build skyscrapers.

You know what I mean.

You really ought to read a bit more of this forum, then. You can find just about every possible opinion about Houston here.

Like I said, if there were a great deal of non-Houstonians here, I would not be the minority.

I'll try, but you try to listen to what your are actually saying. You want Houston to look less like it does, and more like other cities do. Think about that.

No, that's what y'all think I'm saying, but that's not it exactly. Houston can be as unique as it wants to, but it needs to do it in a way that can be celebrated by all citizens.

Houston looks like a poor city to you? What poor cities have you been looking at?

Well, y'all said it yourselves. Developers and city planners have been trying to squeeze as much out of one dollar as they can. Which is why you get the cheap, plastic look that serves as the face of Houston's downtown.

If there was more of a variety of architectural styles and materials in DT, this might not be so bad. But there isn't a good variety, so we're stuck looking at this. And I speak for many people all over the city and the country when I say that I'm sick of it.

[musicman]

Developers and city planners have been trying to squeeze as much out of one dollar as they can.

which cities aren't doing the same thing? even from the pictures you posted, the buildings around them are basic buck buildings not architectural masterpieces.

[mpope409]

which cities aren't doing the same thing? even from the pictures you posted, the buildings around them are basic buck buildings not architectural masterpieces.

Yes, but those cities are not just making basic buck buildings. Their buildings that stand out are beautiful, and they make sure of it.

[musicman]

Bank of America Center: Atlanta

yeah i see how the at&t building is phenomenal.

[mpope409]

yeah i see how the at&t building is phenomenal.

Who said it was? That's one of the basic buck buildings you speak of. No one recognizes that building.

[musicman]

Who said it was? That's one of the basic buck buildings you speak of. No one recognizes that building.

exactly we are just like other cities....there are some premier buildings that standout but most are basic buck ones.

[lockmat]

I think this is all just a matter of opinion and nothing will be resolved. Honestly, I don't see the greateness of the other buildings posted, and I'm not saying that just to be disagreeable. And I actually love the width of our scrapers. When I drive up to downtown it gives me the feeling that it's strong and masculine, like a stout man's broad shoulders.

[memebag]

No, that's what y'all think I'm saying, but that's not it exactly. Houston can be as unique as it wants to, but it needs to do it in a way that can be celebrated by all citizens.

OK, everyone. Stop being unique in ways celebrated by only a few. All of you, be unique in ways that we can all celebrate!

Well, y'all said it yourselves. Developers and city planners have been trying to squeeze as much out of one dollar as they can. Which is why you get the cheap, plastic look that serves as the face of Houston's downtown.

Houston doesn't look cheap, though. These buildings you dislike cost millions of dollars to build, and they generate millions of dollars for their owners. They don't look "plastic", they look like glass.

If there was more of a variety of architectural styles and materials in DT, this might not be so bad. But there isn't a good variety, so we're stuck looking at this.

You don't like it. That doesn't mean it isn't a "good variety", it just means you don't like it.

And I speak for many people all over the city and the country when I say that I'm sick of it.

What are you doing about it?