Texas pledge of allegiance

[Orikal]

You know, in all honesty I can't provide you with any stat that techinically takes into effect school prayer, however I can use my brain and look at what has happened in my lifetime. Can I prove on paper it's because of school prayer, no. But again, I either see it as one big coincidence, or I see it as having some merit.

No one can logically argue that our kids haven't changed for the worst over the last 4 decades. It's painfully obvious. I believe the gradual removal of God from public life has been done to our detriment, and is not only effecting our children, but is effecting our entire society. All you have to do its watch TV to see what I'm talking about.

I'm going round and round here so I'm going to drop off of this subject for a while.

Then I'm going to make the assertion that since we landed on the moon, the population of the Earth is now exponentially larger than before. Would you honestly correlate the two? Of course you wouldn't, because despite the fact that both are verifiable, one has nothing to do with the other. But using your logic, you'd have to be a fool not to see the correlation. How can you not see the disconnect?

Edit: And yes, you're going around and around because you're using circular logic. Why can't you understand that your belief is not reality?

[Gary]

Quote from your source.

Another quote from your source.

Still another quote from your source.

Why do these rates keep falling, some to the lowest levels recorded, if there is no prayer in schools?

Yeah Red I'm aware of the stats.

Let me ask you this.... Do you think that schools are better off today than they were 40 years ago?

[Gary]

Then I'm going to make the assertion that since we landed on the moon, the population of the Earth is now exponentially larger than before. Would you honestly correlate the two? Of course you wouldn't, because despite the fact that both are verifiable, one has nothing to do with the other. But using your logic, you'd have to be a fool not to see the correlation. How can you not see the disconnect?

First of all that's a strange analogy to make your point. Secondly... No I do not see the disconnect.

Edit: And yes, you're going around and around because you're using circular logic. Why can't you understand that your belief is not reality?

No my friend I'm not using circular logic, I'm repeating myself.

I would love for you to prove to me that that my belief is not reality.

[RedScare]

Yeah Red I'm aware of the stats.

Let me ask you this.... Do you think that schools are better off today than they were 40 years ago?

1967? Honestly, I think they are both better and worse. Lots of advancements in education have been made. However, lots of other issues have arisen. Plus, some schools are great, while others are terrible. It is not a simple answer.

I can state with absolute certainty that a 30 second non-specific prayer has had no effect on the schools or their ability to teach, nor the children. It is just not an issue, not when children are influenced by so many other people and things. School prayer, like gods in pledges, is merely a symbolic gesture, which is why both sides fight it. Those against want to keep the government secular, while those for want to bring religion into government.

PS - For a hint as to why youth homicide jumped from 1985 to 1995, then plummetted, Google "crack epidemic".

[Gary]

1967? Honestly, I think they are both better and worse. Lots of advancements in education have been made. However, lots of other issues have arisen. Plus, some schools are great, while others are terrible. It is not a simple answer.

I can state with absolute certainty that a 30 second non-specific prayer has had no effect on the schools or their ability to teach, nor the children. It is just not an issue, not when children are influenced by so many other people and things. School prayer, like gods in pledges, is merely a symbolic gesture, which is why both sides fight it. Those against want to keep the government secular, while those for want to bring religion into government.

PS - For a hint as to why youth homicide jumped from 1985 to 1995, then plummetted, Google "crack epidemic".

That's a fair enough argument, however I will never believe in a million years that taking God out of schools was a good thing, so were getting back to the same ending we had the last time we argued about God. You believe prayer means nothing in the schools, and I believe it means alot, so lets leave it at that.

[sevfiv]

You believe prayer means nothing in the schools, and I believe it means alot, so lets leave it at that.

just out of curiosity:

if your belief became reality and some sort of prayer was enacted in public schools, how would non-praying students (non-religious and also religious students that do not wish to pray in public) be handled? (the pledge issue will require a note from parents of kids that do not wish to participate).

[gwilson]

You missed the part in the above quote about "the preference of one religion over another, or religion over non-religion".

It doesn't say that, but whatever.

If gwilson's interpretation is the only correct one, then why does the supreme court have a problem with it?

I'm proud to be American too, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my issue with the "under god" pledge. I'd be more okay with "under the god of your choice" though.

You can be proud without a silly pledge, you know. Anything I am forced to do feels artificial. I know many don't agree with me on that, but I want people out there to know that just because I have a problem with the pledge doesn't mean I'm not proud to be American.

No one, including the supreme court, should be interpreting something that is written in very plain absolutes.

[Orikal]

First of all that's a strange analogy to make your point.

My assertion is no stranger than yours. Why is that? Because A + B does not equal D.

Secondly... No I do not see the disconnect.

Do you understand the term "disconnect"? If so, then you are asserting there is a direct link between landing on the moon and the population increase on the planet. Are you?

No my friend I'm not using circular logic, I'm repeating myself.

DEFINITION -- Circular logic is a logical error, caused by first making some assumption that can't be proven true, then, on the basis of that assumption, deriving some result that is then used to "prove" that the first assumption is true.

Correct, you are in fact repeating your use of circular logic.

I would love for you to prove to me that that my belief is not reality.

Oh, that's very dissapointing. I figured you would resort to that question after failing to prove your stance. It's not my position to disprove your argument friend, for I am not making any assertions, other than the fact that there is no proof the removal of prayer from public education has directly caused an increase in violence, teen pregnancy, etc, which you have verified for me.

If your assertion were such a foregone conclusion, don't you think you would be able to easily provide scientific data to back it up? After all, we've had some four decades to gather data.

[gwilson]

It's widely accepted that Benjamin Franklin actually was not a Christian. The bulk of evidence suggests that he was, in fact, a deist. The vast majority of the founding fathers were deist Freemasons. The nation itself was not founded on Christ, but was founded upon ideas that were produced in the so-called Age of Reason.

As far as the issue of the separation of Church and state, I am certainly a supporter of it. The Church was made for Christ, not to be used as a tool to garner more votes or anything else. In light of the selfishness of man, if the Church were heavily involved with the state, she would be taken advantage of in the worst way.

Incidentally, I believe that if there were ever a truly Christian nation, that is, a nation founded entirely on the person of Jesus Christ, and one that was in total obedience to God, then it would look nothing like any nation currently in existence. It certainly would not look like the United States.

I laugh every time I hear these theories.

These men were ADMITTED Christians and were very open about it. Being a Freemason, even at that time, did not negate you being a Christian either. In fact, just as today, it required you be a Christian.

[gwilson]

This thread has moved WAY off topic.

Also, I am not arguing whether Under God should be present in the pledge, I am arguing the constitutionality of people saying it SHOULDN'T BECAUSE of the Constitution.

Every statement made pointing out anything about a preference is NOT from the Constitution, but rather someones interpretation of it.

[Gary]

Oh, that's very dissapointing. I figured you would resort to that question after failing to prove your stance. It's not my position to disprove your argument friend, for I am not making any assertions, other than the fact that there is no proof the removal of prayer from public education has directly caused an increase in violence, teen pregnancy, etc, which you have verified for me.

First of all smart guy, I have already explained, and let me repeat that I have no evidence on paper that states "the removal of prayer in schools has adversly effected our children". I have made that clear. Consequently you have no proof to substantiate your argument, or lack thereof as you have basically talked to the wind through your posts, and used your "superior writing skills" to say nothing.

Whether I'm right or not I have provided founding fathers quotes, given a link, and have made my opinions clear. You have done nothing but try to make me look like an idiot, and I sir am not an idot. When you have something substansive to talk about let me know.

[Orikal]

First of all smart guy, I have already explained, and let me repeat that I have no evidence on paper that states "the removal of prayer in schools has adversly effected our children". I have made that clear. Consequently you have no proof to substantiate your argument, or lack thereof as you have basically talked to the wind through your posts, and used your "superior writing skills" to say nothing.

Now, now, no need to get frustrated.

I'm not required to present proof, because I'm not making an assertion. It's very simple: Your inability to produce a cogent, reality-based connection between two unrelated facts speaks volumes about the veracity of your assumption.

It's false, by the simple lack of evidence, after four decades of this same discussion. There are no studies correlating the two. Do you know why there are no studies correlating the two? Because there is no correlation.

Whether I'm right or not I have provided founding fathers quotes, given a link, and have made my opinions clear.

Now you're trying to take our discussion elsewhere. I have no issue with the fact our founding fathers may or may not have been religious. It's of no concern. As previously stated, you have failed to correlate your opinions (which you stated as fact) with reality, which is the crux of this discussion.

You have done nothing but try to make me look like an idiot, and I sir am not an idiot.

Why would I make such a conclusion based only on the fact you present assumption and belief as fact? I'm sure you're a relatively agreeable person. Whether or not you feel like an idiot is not of my doing. You have chosen to use and assign that label.

When you have something substansive to talk about let me know.

Look, I realize that we all become more and more ingrained in our thinking as time goes on, facts and reality be damned. Standing up for your opinions and assertions using logic and reasoning is substansive to me, but I realize it's not that way with everyone.

All the best, my friend.

[west20th]

look like an idiot, and I sir am not an idot.

What an inopportune spot for a typo. Just pointing that out to lighten things up a bit.

[gwilson]

ROFL!

Awesome catch! I literally laughed for a full minute at that.

That is great.

[TheNiche]

What an inopportune spot for a typo. Just pointing that out to lighten things up a bit.

I think Gary may have been the one trying to keep it light. He also mispelled substantive immediately thereafter.

[Gary]

Now, now, no need to get frustrated.

I'm not required to present proof, because I'm not making an assertion. It's very simple: Your inability to produce a cogent, reality-based connection between two unrelated facts speaks volumes about the veracity of your assumption.

You just made an assertion by stating that I have no ability to produce a cogent, reality based connection regarding this subject. Prove it.

Now, now, no need to get frustrated.

Do you know why there are no studies correlating the two? Because there is no correlation.

Really? No correlation? Can you give me some explanation, or maybe a little proof to back up this little tid bit? You have done nothing but tell me how stupid my argument is, yet you conveniently give no information or stat to prove a statement like above. I believe that there is a direct correlation because I see it, read it, and hear it. I also happen to live here on planet Earth.

Now you're trying to take our discussion elsewhere. I have no issue with the fact our founding fathers may or may not have been religious. It's of no concern. As previously stated, you have failed to correlate your opinions (which you stated as fact) with reality, which is the crux of this discussion.

No I'm not. The reason I brought up quotes from the fathers of this country was to show how many obviously felt about God in the public life, so it's of vital concern to this argument. Especially if you happen to value their opinions as leaders, and those leaders happen to believe that God was integral to the government and it's entities. You May dissagree with that philosophy, but it is not a failure to correlate the two.

[Gary]

Why would I make such a conclusion based only on the fact you present assumption and belief as fact? I'm sure you're a relatively agreeable person. Whether or not you feel like an idiot is not of my doing. You have chosen to use and assign that label.

Show me where I presented assumption as fact. I simply stated that the schools are continually getting worse as a whole, and have been for years. Yes it's true that violence in the schools have gone down over the last few years, but in genral, they are far worse off than they were when I was growing up. That is a fact, and anyone who argues that is either ignorant, or makes a concience choice against the obvious. No I don't have a batch of stats to throw your way, holy crap man, should I really have to? Isn't it obvious?

While you could argue that that has nothing to do with kicking God out of the schools, certainly you wouldn't argue that were worse off than what we once were.

Look, I realize that we all become more and more ingrained in our thinking as time goes on, facts and reality be damned. Standing up for your opinions and assertions using logic and reasoning is substansive to me, but I realize it's not that way with everyone.

You and yer damn fancy werds (country music playing in the background).

I will say that your consistant. You have yet to offer a damn thing to me, well other than being a smart ass. By the way your good at it. Oh and I'll be waiting for you or anyone else to prove your side of the argument or lack thereof. Of course you'll most assuredly mention the burden of proof is on me, and you would be right. However I think I've run out of things to say that I haven't already said 94 times, soooooo.... This dumb hillbilly needs someone to set him straight on this subject but I've yet to find that person. You sound well read and intelligent how about you?

[Gary]

What an inopportune spot for a typo. Just pointing that out to lighten things up a bit.

Yeah I'm "idot". If trying to argue with an intelectual wasn't hard enough.

[musicman]

Yeah I'm "idot". If trying to argue with an intelectual wasn't hard enough.

[ChampionsAdam]

Ms. Riddle is obviously a very self-serving individual, I can't imagine she had nothing better to do than to crusade for this. She should have been more focused on the education aspect of the schools and less on worrying about the lack of the word God in the Texas Pledge of Allegiance. Texas has more pressing issues to focus on than this sort of thing, shame on her and those that supported her bill.

[VicMan]

Ms. Riddle is obviously a very self-serving individual, I can't imagine she had nothing better to do than to crusade for this. She should have been more focused on the education aspect of the schools and less on worrying about the lack of the word God in the Texas Pledge of Allegiance. Texas has more pressing issues to focus on than this sort of thing, shame on her and those that supported her bill.

That was the thesis of the letter I sent. If she replies, I will post the response here

[sevfiv]

That was the thesis of the letter I sent. If she replies, I will post the response here

i'm thinking a form letter if anything, but we shall see

You believe prayer means nothing in the schools, and I believe it means alot

just out of curiosity:

if your belief became reality and some sort of prayer was enacted in public schools, how would non-praying students (non-religious and also religious students that do not wish to pray in public) be handled? (the pledge issue will require a note from parents of kids that do not wish to participate).

maybe this got lost in the back-and-forth, but i was still curious.

[TJones]

I don't even know why there has to be a pledge of allegiance to Texas ? Is there a small group or miltia that are still trying to find a way to seceed from the USA ? I am proud to be an American first, a Texan second. You pledge allegiance to your country, NOT your state. I don't think we'll ever be going to war against Montana, so pledging allegiance to Texas is not on my list of important things to be patriotic about. If and when we become The Republic of Texas again, I may reconsider my values, until then, let's just let sleeping dogs lie. There are much bigger fish to fry around Texas, than worry about whether God is watching over this great state or not, because if you are a true Texan, you already know he does.

[Gary]

maybe this got lost in the back-and-forth, but i was still curious.

QUOTE(Gary @ Friday, August 3rd, 2007 @ 4:06pm)

You believe prayer means nothing in the schools, and I believe it means alot

QUOTE(sevfiv @ Friday, August 3rd, 2007 @ 4:12pm)

just out of curiosity:

if your belief became reality and some sort of prayer was enacted in public schools, how would non-praying students (non-religious and also religious students that do not wish to pray in public) be handled? (the pledge issue will require a note from parents of kids that do not wish to participate).

I 've been thinking about this a little more and I must admit that you have a valid point. While arguing about this yesterday I failed to point out, that I am by no means for forcing any student to pray, ever. Hopefully through my rants I didn't come across as believing that way.

The United States was founded on Christian principals, and that has been our culture for over 200 years. At least until recently. Now I constantly hear how he should be removed from almost every form of government because of the whole "seperation of church and state" issue. I have a very hard time with that personally. I see my country changing before my eyes, and quite frankly it scares the hell out of me. By the way, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

I also understand that todays "Christian" and his or her pushy ways are a big turnoff. I also understand that God cannot, and should not be forced on anyone. So now I am left with the question.... Did the modern day Christians ruin God's place in America?

As I said, I DO NOT believe that prayer should be forced, but I do believe that God belongs in our public life. To what extent is hard to answer, but I thought "The Great Generation's" time would be a good measuring rod.

Edit: I know that's not much of an answer, but I'm honestly having a hard time with the logistics. I'll have to think about it a little more.

[VicMan]

I found a copy of Texas Monthly - specifically the July 2007 Volume (Volume 35, Issue 7) and it has a story that rates Texas house members.

"The Best and Worst Legislators 2007"

And Debbie Riddle was on the worst list.

Senior executive editor Paul Burka, in an e-mail to writer-at-large Patricia Kilday Hart, describes her (this was printed on pages 103-104):

"There is never a shortage of would-be Worsts in the House. Most are malevolent, but some, like Debbie Riddle, are so innocent that I ought to turn myself in to the Humane Society for putting them on the list. (She once happened by the two Democrats who were looking at the Bibles that remain in members' desks from session to session, with notations of the previous occupants' favorite verses. "Oh," said the Riddler, as she is known by those who have been stumped by her vacuousness. "I didn't know Democrats read the Bible.") Riddle represents the largest gap between sincerity and talent in the Legislature. She wouldn't harm a fly, but she is lethal to bills that require a depth of understanding. I can't imagine who thought it would be a good idea for her to manage the floor debate on Jessica's Law. Obviously the bill had widespread support, but it also raised some difficult issues, such as the constitutionality of imposing the death penalty for repeat sex offenders who don't take a life. Riddle made such a mess of answering queries that two fellow Republicans, both respected lawyers, called a halt to the proceedings ("It doesn't do us any good to pass a bill that gets struck down by the courts, one told the House) and suggested that the members use the weekend to confer with prosecutors and victims' rights groups back home. When the House reconvened, Riddle was no longer the bill's floor manager. While other members passed her bill, she hovered in the background, still clueless."

So, Riddle seems to be a fairly weak politician.

[pineda]

Vic-

You graduated from high school this year, right? What college/university did you decide to attend? Are you going to major in education?

[VicMan]

Vic-

You graduated from high school this year, right? What college/university did you decide to attend? Are you going to major in education?

St. Edward's University in Austin - And, I will major in either history or global studies.

[pineda]

Congrats! We were just there this weekend visiting St. Ed's. That place is really growing! Good luck to you in your studies there this fall. If I can figure it out later, I'll try and post some pics from there of the buildings and some of the dorms.

[Montrose1100]

QUOTE(Gary @ Friday, August 3rd, 2007 @ 4:06pm)

You believe prayer means nothing in the schools, and I believe it means alot

QUOTE(sevfiv @ Friday, August 3rd, 2007 @ 4:12pm)

just out of curiosity:

if your belief became reality and some sort of prayer was enacted in public schools, how would non-praying students (non-religious and also religious students that do not wish to pray in public) be handled? (the pledge issue will require a note from parents of kids that do not wish to participate).

I 've been thinking about this a little more and I must admit that you have a valid point. While arguing about this yesterday I failed to point out, that I am by no means for forcing any student to pray, ever. Hopefully through my rants I didn't come across as believing that way.

The United States was founded on Christian principals, and that has been our culture for over 200 years. At least until recently. Now I constantly hear how he should be removed from almost every form of government because of the whole "seperation of church and state" issue. I have a very hard time with that personally. I see my country changing before my eyes, and quite frankly it scares the hell out of me. By the way, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

I also understand that todays "Christian" and his or her pushy ways are a big turnoff. I also understand that God cannot, and should not be forced on anyone. So now I am left with the question.... Did the modern day Christians ruin God's place in America?

As I said, I DO NOT believe that prayer should be forced, but I do believe that God belongs in our public life. To what extent is hard to answer, but I thought "The Great Generation's" time would be a good measuring rod.

Edit: I know that's not much of an answer, but I'm honestly having a hard time with the logistics. I'll have to think about it a little more.

I don't pray or go to church or anything. However, I don't mind one bit that our currency, or pledge says "Under god". I also don't mind if the 10 commandments are outside of a courthouse. That stuff is silly. We have bigger problems to worry about.

[Orikal]

You just made an assertion by stating that I have no ability to produce a cogent, reality based connection regarding this subject. Prove it.

LOL! Prove you haven't produced a reality based connection? My proof lies in the fact you haven't shown anyone here, in any way, shape, or form, proof that the removal of prayer from schools has increased violence.

What you have shown, however, is that you made the leap from one fact (prayer was removed from public schools in 1962) to another (our society is more violent) and assumed, based on nothing other than the fact you are a religious individual, that the first is the cause of the latter.

Really? No correlation? Can you give me some explanation, or maybe a little proof to back up this little tid bit? You have done nothing but tell me how stupid my argument is, yet you conveniently give no information or stat to prove a statement like above. I believe that there is a direct correlation because I see it, read it, and hear it. I also happen to live here on planet Earth.

Here ya go, tough guy. I'll expect your sources shortly. And just to stop you before you start, let's try and keep it as centered as possible. No far right zealot sites, unless they link to a scholarly or scientific study that leans toward your assertion.

------------------------------------------------------------------

"It is difficult to believe the Conservative Christian claim that the removal of school prayer from public school in the early 1960s is the significant cause of societal problems. Though Christians from various denominations and theological perspectives accept the theological basis for school prayer, many of these same individuals doubt the appropriateness and ability of school prayer to solve societal problems. A growing number of conservative, evangelical Christians are concerned about the difficulties that school prayer creates regarding matters of faith, conscience, and civility (Loconte 1995). School prayer has never played a major role in maintaining a moral or religious consensus, nor will prayer either slow or reverse current moral trends or lead to a spiritual or cultural renewal (Loconte 1995).

Institutionalizing prayer will not help the current moral crisis or solve societal problems. Instead, school prayer will do nothing more than further trivialize religious and spiritual matters, diminishing religion's place in human life and academics, and as a legitimate way of understanding the world."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa40...i_n9020250/pg_3

"It is important to realize that schools are relatively safe places. An average of about two dozen students have been shot in U.S. schools annually in recent years. This compares with thousands shot outside of school buildings each year.

Major factors involved in past in-school shootings have been:

very serious mental illness on the part of the perpetrator(s), or

revenge for years of hate, marginalization and rejection of the perpetrators by the school's social elite.

If prayers from a single religion were re-introduced into public classrooms, they would provide one more criteria by which the majority could discriminate against and marginalize minorities. The end result would probably be more school violence, not less."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_pra8.htm

And here's a someone who actually *gasp* used logic to get from point A to B, to perhaps explain the increase in school violence. Imagine that. Not saying I necessarily agree, but you get the point. Or do you?

"School Violence Worldwide Linked to Competitive Test Scores

A Penn State study by two researchers, Dr. David P. Baker, professor of education and sociology, and Dr. Gerald K. LeTendre, associate professor of education shows a significant link between school violence on a global scale and educational inequality.

Contrary to popular perceptions, the United States is not the front-runner in school violence but places roughly in the middle of the international pack. Despite keen media attention, outbreaks of mass violence such as the Columbine High School massacre of 1999 are still comparatively rare. A far more pervasive problem is violence in the form of physical assaults, bullying, and threats of violence, say the researchers.

National patterns of school violence have little or no correlation with the amount of violence among adults in a country or social trends such as the rate of divorce. Instead, these patterns are strongly influenced by inequities in the educational systems that, in turn, create inequities in academic attainment. Regarding root causes, school violence must be considered a separate issue from juvenile delinquency: