Crime In The Woodlands

[KatieDidIt]

i agree with most of what your saying, red. however, since kuykendahl and gosling were completed through to sterling ridge and indian springs, and the woodlands parkway was opened up to 2978 between tomball and magnolia, it seems that crime has increased in the area. there are loads of trailer parks and low income areas across spring creek south of the newer neighborhoods. these "lower elements" are within five minutes, not forty-five minutes.

Not to mention all the yard crews, construction crews and cleaning crews have a pretty good working knowledge of homes/vehicles/daily routines/dogs or no dogs/etc. They talk to friends back in the "hood," which as bach said is literally only a few miles away.

[RedScare]

i didn't mean for the oberg piece to be of any info except to me that i'm so naive about certain things, like the info on alarms. the last captain at mykawa road i found to be eye opening about how bold they are. i don't think burglars are organized like a frat and target a specific homeowner (unless there's a nice car in the driveway perhaps) but i do believe they talk about areas where crime is easy.

Absolutely, they talk. The point I was making is that burglary is a part time job for the overwhelming majority of burglars. In our world, they would be considered amatuers. They are crackheads or bored youth first, burglars as an afterthought. The general perception of "cat burglars", or the silly alarm commercials that show a well prepared burglar, dressed as a deliveryman is such a minute percentage of the 25,000 burglaries committed in the City each year as to be laughable. This is why intelligent homeowners will protect against opportunists versus professionals. The opportunists are far more likely to hit your home, and the pro will get in anyway.

That was the point of Oberg's piece, and why it was much better than the typical Houston fluff piece. Oberg talked to typical burglars, the kind we are most likely to see. And, like so many other things, it is the simple things like barking dogs that are most effective.

EDIT: Again, bach, show me your evidence. I've never seen it. If what you say is true, then we should have seen sky high crime rates in Tomball prior to the Woodlands. I have never heard that, and I grew up in the Kuykendahl area.

[TheNiche]

The general perception of "cat burglars", or the silly alarm commercials that show a well prepared burglar, dressed as a deliveryman is such a minute percentage of the 25,000 burglaries committed in the City each year as to be laughable. This is why intelligent homeowners will protect against opportunists versus professionals. The opportunists are far more likely to hit your home, and the pro will get in anyway.

Say, isn't that about the same argument I was trying to make to you many months ago in an analysis of property crime patterns between urban and suburban locales?

Did I win? In an argument with Red?

[musicman]

Absolutely, they talk. The point I was making is that burglary is a part time job for the overwhelming majority of burglars. In our world, they would be considered amatuers. They are crackheads or bored youth first, burglars as an afterthought.

i would separate real burglars vs. crackheads or bored youth. i think the latter would tend to stay around their home while a real burglar would target more.

[bachanon]

Absolutely, they talk. The point I was making is that burglary is a part time job for the overwhelming majority of burglars. In our world, they would be considered amatuers. They are crackheads or bored youth first, burglars as an afterthought. The general perception of "cat burglars", or the silly alarm commercials that show a well prepared burglar, dressed as a deliveryman is such a minute percentage of the 25,000 burglaries committed in the City each year as to be laughable. This is why intelligent homeowners will protect against opportunists versus professionals. The opportunists are far more likely to hit your home, and the pro will get in anyway.

That was the point of Oberg's piece, and why it was much better than the typical Houston fluff piece. Oberg talked to typical burglars, the kind we are most likely to see. And, like so many other things, it is the simple things like barking dogs that are most effective.

EDIT: Again, bach, show me your evidence. I've never seen it. If what you say is true, then we should have seen sky high crime rates in Tomball prior to the Woodlands. I have never heard that, and I grew up in the Kuykendahl area.

i didn't claim to have evidence. i simply stated "it seems that crime has increased in the area".

[RedScare]

Say, isn't that about the same argument I was trying to make to you many months ago in an analysis of property crime patterns between urban and suburban locales?

Did I win? In an argument with Red?

It is entirely possible that you tried to make this point months ago, but that in the mountain of verbiage spewing forth from your keyboard, the point was entirely trampled, never to be seen again.

If you are asking if I have stated something different than I did months ago, the answer is no.

musicamn, agreed as to the two groups. My point is that the real burglars are an extremely small group. I only recall dealing with one in my 20 years in this business. A guy I prosecuted in Fort Worth confessed to hundreds of burglaries across the entire country. He would move on frequently, so as to lessen his risk of capture. Pretty interesting dude, who would never waste his valuable time on your house or mine. He was after the BIG stuff.

On the other hand, I have dealt with so many punks and crackheads, I cannot remember the ones from last year alone.

[bachanon]

with nearly 30% of the woodlands population being minors, i'm not surprised when i hear stories like these. the new census estimates show that out of nearly 400k residents in montgomery county, over 100k are under 18. i don't know if this is true throughout the country. it seems excessive to me.

March 23, 2007, 12:56PM

Church hopes to stem spike in vandalism

Leaders want more patrols around nearby Woodlands park

By LAURA ISENSEE

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

After suffering nearly 20 incidents of vandalism in a span of three months, a church in the Panther Creek neighborhood is seeking help from park rangers in The Woodlands.

Since Dec. 28, 2006, Trinity Episcopal Church, 3901 S. Panther Creek Drive, has seen vandalism ranging from minor mischief to the criminal. Vandals have marked graffiti on walls, dumped motor oil on cars and caused $100,000 in damages to the sanctuary's air-conditioning system.

The church's junior warden Bill Merchant recently asked the Community Associations of The Woodlands to pay for undercover park ranger surveillance at the nearby Creekwood Park. The idea was one of several discussed at a recent community meeting the church held with local law enforcement agencies and the community associations.

"I think there's just a couple of bad apples," Merchant said.

The church feels that Creekwood Park, with a skate park and near McCullough Junior High, is a haven for culprits and possibly has drawn more mischief since the closing of other skate parks around The Woodlands, Merchant said.

While the church looks to stop the spike in vandalism, The Woodlands is working to fully launch its new community-oriented policing program sometime in May.

The new $2.4 million contract with the Montgomery County Sheriff's Department funds 30 deputies on patrol in five new beats in The Woodlands.

The final 10 deputies will be hired from outside local law enforcement agencies and are expected to be interviewed this week, said Lt. Andrew Eason of Montgomery County Sheriff's Department Precinct 2. Depending on the new recruits' experience, their training could take up to 13 weeks, he said.

full story

[RedScare]

Undercover park ranger?

Are you kidding me?

Sounds like this has all the markings of a hit Hollywood crime drama. Ace Ventura...Undercover Park Ranger

[TheNiche]

It is entirely possible that you tried to make this point months ago, but that in the mountain of verbiage spewing forth from your keyboard, the point was entirely trampled, never to be seen again.

If you are asking if I have stated something different than I did months ago, the answer is no.

As I recall, you were arguing that people are at least as at risk from crime in The Woodlands as in the Heights on account of there being lots of dead-end streets, wooded trails, and privacy fences that can hide the activities of burglars. I argued that those areas would be subject to planned crimes but that most criminals aren't that well organized and would strike opportunistically, with gridded streets and mixed demographics of the Heights contributing to a property crime rate that was likely higher.

[woody_hawkeye]

As I recall, you were arguing that people are at least as at risk from crime in The Woodlands as in the Heights on account of there being lots of dead-end streets, wooded trails, and privacy fences that can hide the activities of burglars. I argued that those areas would be subject to planned crimes but that most criminals aren't that well organized and would strike opportunistically, with gridded streets and mixed demographics of the Heights contributing to a property crime rate that was likely higher.

Architects of The Woodlands agreed with you. That is a primary reason of the convoluted streets design. It is so easy to get lost here. I still can get turned around in some places.

[RedScare]

Architects of The Woodlands agreed with you. That is a primary reason of the convoluted streets design. It is so easy to get lost here. I still can get turned around in some places.

So, you are agreeing that it is likely local thieves committing burglaries then, since non-locals would get lost? While I seriously doubt the Woodlands layout was done to foil non-local burglars (in fact, that has never been stated in any article I've ever read about it's street design), it would have been a colossal blunder for the architects to design a neighborhood that is safe from a small minority of criminals (non-locals) while making it more susceptible to the large majority of them (locals).

Nitche, you'll have to do better than a dim recollection for me to respond to your post. I remember the thread about fences providing cover for burglars, and cul-de-sacs and curved streets shielding burglars from nosy neighbors. However, I would never argue that the Heights has fewer burglaries than the Woodlands, or that a large number of burglaries are opportunistic. I WOULD argue that, all things being equal, gridded streets provide better visibility, and therefore better supervision by neighbors, than cul-de-sacs.

[TheNiche]

Nitche, you'll have to do better than a dim recollection for me to respond to your post.

I'd post a link to the appropriate thread if I remembered which one it was.

I WOULD argue that, all things being equal, gridded streets provide better visibility, and therefore better supervision by neighbors, than cul-de-sacs.

Gridded streets are a double-edged sword, though. On the one hand, they provide greater visibility for non-criminals of possible criminal acts, but on the other hand, they also make prospective targets more visible to opportunistic criminals.

Gridded streets also give rise to more thru-traffic, and the neighbors will think less of the many unfamiliar vehicles passing by than they would if the streets were cul-de-sacs and traffic volume was light. I've toured many subdivisions for work and frequently get long dirty stares from people living on dead-end streets as I drive by and make the u-turn...I'll never get a dirty look like that from someone on a grid, even in as uppity a place as Bellaire.

[musicman]

The church feels that Creekwood Park, with a skate park and near McCullough Junior High, is a haven for culprits and possibly has drawn more mischief since the closing of other skate parks around The Woodlands, Merchant said.

now they are blaming skaters too? this is something the city of houston did too. a few bad people give the whole group a bad name.

I'd post a link to the appropriate thread if I remembered which one it was.

Gridded streets are a double-edged sword, though. On the one hand, they provide greater visibility for non-criminals of possible criminal acts, but on the other hand, they also make prospective targets more visible to opportunistic criminals.

Gridded streets also give rise to more thru-traffic, and the neighbors will think less of the many unfamiliar vehicles passing by than they would if the streets were cul-de-sacs and traffic volume was light.

i'd have to agree here.

[RedScare]

I patially disagree, as I did before. BOTH types of streets are double-edged. Less visibility and less traffic gives more cover to the burglar. But, an alert neighbor who can see the traffic may be suspicious of an unfamiliar vehicle or pedestrian.

On the other hand, heavier traffic may cause less vigilance, but the heavier traffic is itself a deterrent, as the burglar prefers no one around. The same theory applies to parking lots, where one is advised to park near other vehicles, not in isolated areas, and studies also show that busier areas with pedestrian traffic are safer than more isolated ones. The studies I have seen all come to the conclusion that more visibility and heavier traffic is preferable to less when it comes to safety and burglary. It may seem counterintuitive, but it makes sense from the standpoint of a burglar preferring not to be seen.

[musicman]

everyone needs a mrs kravitz next door

[TheNiche]

I patially disagree, as I did before. BOTH types of streets are double-edged. Less visibility and less traffic gives more cover to the burglar. But, an alert neighbor who can see the traffic may be suspicious of an unfamiliar vehicle or pedestrian.

On the other hand, heavier traffic may cause less vigilance, but the heavier traffic is itself a deterrent, as the burglar prefers no one around. The same theory applies to parking lots, where one is advised to park near other vehicles, not in isolated areas, and studies also show that busier areas with pedestrian traffic are safer than more isolated ones. The studies I have seen all come to the conclusion that more visibility and heavier traffic is preferable to less when it comes to safety and burglary. It may seem counterintuitive, but it makes sense from the standpoint of a burglar preferring not to be seen.

I agree with your reasoning, but if we remove that assumption that the burglar is acting rationally and intelligently (which is reasonable considering that smarter people tend to have better ways to come up with cash than to risk being sent to jail), then opportunism clearly becomes the dominant motivator. Grids are more conducive to opportunism, and so they are at higher risk to crime, all other factors being the same, IMO.

[PureAuteur]

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formt...amp;ambiguity=1

http://www.click2houston.com/news/13356292/detail.html

I believe this neighborhood is merely a couple miles from the Woodlands. Some black guys busted into a house with guns, tied up two women, and pistol whipped them, before taking all their valuables and stealing their car.

[hbcu]

ok...so I guess it's time to move now to Huntsville....pack up the kids and leave

as funny as it sounds, crime is everywhere and alot of times high end areas are targeted more because of the perception people have more

I knew that area where the crime occurred was changing....at Louetta and I-45 is a HUD Housing Development....when the folks get enough means to move out, they're going to establish themselves in the local area...

[Vertigo58]

This is why some of my family left Spring. One day my brother is cutting grass, two cops come running down the street with guns in hand chasing 2 guys that just robbed the gas station around the corner. The kids just happened to be inside the house. Just too close for comfort. There were other similar incidents and an ever growing visible presence of trouble so they left. The area has gone downhill since. End of story.

[PureAuteur]

The only low income area of Spring I know of is at Aldine Westfield and Hirschfield Road, so I'm not sure how the entire area of Spring could go downhill. It's the knee-jerk responses of people who pack up and move after hearing something bad on the news that make property values go down. The east side of Spring is a beautiful area with lots of potential. They just need to redevelop it with some better neighborhoods and better planning.

[hbcu]

me personally...if I'm buying in Houston now...Spring is out the question...why?

I've followed the demographic changes in town for years as my old side of town (SW) mirrors growth in the north...only difference is minorities in the SW area in Missouri City are more affluent than minorities off of 1960 as the metro routes are abundant along with an abundance of apartments..

anyway...with the apartments, folks will eventually want to move out from where they are located and Spring is the "hot" area now...Imperial Valley, a Greenspoint Area road, will eventually extend from Greenspoint to 1960...as you can see now, that street is heavily minority now and easy to afford for folks....

One trip to Wal-Mart on Cypresswood Drive gives you an indication of what's going to happen

[TexasArchitect]

i don't think it really matters where u are. there's crime everywhere. a friend of mine was so naive in saying once that his neighborhood is upscale and nothing would happen there etc. well of course something eventually happened there, now what. if ur looking for safe anywhere you almost have to be consistently moving or move to a very upscale neighborhood that has constant patrolling like river oaks (which i might add i dont notice them as much at night).

every1 has this notion that crime happens in low income areas, which is true..but i would think criminals would target the more wealthy areas as that would probably have a better pay off for them. quite unfortunate.......ppl just need to learn to work for what they want and respect others.

[bachanon]

the neighborhoods near old town spring are well known crack house areas. some of the older neighborhoods along aldine westfield were inundated with katrina refugees (many rental properties in the area) and some of the areas have seen an increase in crime. i'm not surprised to hear of this latest report.

[nmainguy]

i don't think it really matters where u are. there's crime everywhere. if ur looking for safe anywhere you almost have to be consistently moving or move to a very upscale neighborhood that has constant patrolling like river oaks (which i might add i dont notice them as much at night).

The really experienced thugs pick up Paper City. They scope the up-coming social season and hit the Wyatts, Farbs, Laniers, etc-who rarely report the hits-on the nights they know they'll be out at Becca's whore-fest or the opening of Opera season. It's not rocket science. Alot of these guys know the in's and out's of these homes from either working there as servants or because of construction/remodeling. TA is right: crime is everywhere. Many times performed by clever RO thugs or clumsy suburban thugs.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I think the answer isnt to pack up and run. I think the answer is more gated communities! Many if not most of the neighborhoods in the N and NW are built around cul de sacs. It would not be hard to close those neighborhoods off from the rest. Gated communities with strict access control will put a halt to stuff like this.

[PureAuteur]

Gated communities would keep these crimes from occurring, but there's something very unlikable about a gated community. I'd rather have openness and faith than safety and a divider.

[KatieDidIt]

I think the answer isnt to pack up and run. I think the answer is more gated communities! Many if not most of the neighborhoods in the N and NW are built around cul de sacs. It would not be hard to close those neighborhoods off from the rest. Gated communities with strict access control will put a halt to stuff like this.

Plenty of nieghborhoods in inner Houston have very minimal problems with crime. It has more to do with personal responsibilty, good alarms and a great Association Patrol that is ever present. Its hard to beat an off duty cop that works for your association showing up 2-3 minutes after the alarm goes off.

Gating is expensive. The homeowners have to buy the street and maintain the roads. They must do this as well as pay for the association. This makes walled communities cost prohibitive to even the upper-middle class. And what is to protect you from the people who live inside the walls?

Crime is everywhere, and if you think you can avoid by moving farther and farther out you are mistaken. It can find you anywhere. If someone wants your stuff bad enough, they will try to get it no matter where you are.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I stand by my statements. Think outside of one dimension. The very fact that you need a cop, on or off duty to show up in a few minutes is bad news. Gated communities do not typically attract trash. Only gated communities i know that attract trash are apartment complexes.

[KatieDidIt]

I stand by my statements. Think outside of one dimension. The very fact that you need a cop, on or off duty to show up in a few minutes is bad news. Gated communities do not typically attract trash. Only gated communities i know that attract trash are apartment complexes.

\

Well the flip side is, that if you live in an area that is so bad that you need to wall yourself off from the general population, that is bad news.

A wall or a patrol are both a deterent. Both tell criminals that they aren't welcome.

As to walling the "trash" out: I have a few friends in Royal Oaks that claim walls don't keep out trash.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

\

Well the flip side is, that if you live in an area that is so bad that you need to wall yourself off from the general population, that is bad news.

No it isnt. It is a first and very major step in removing scum from the area.

As to walling the "trash" out: I have a few friends in Royal Oaks that claim walls don't keep out trash.

Gets its true......southwest is southwest is southwest.