The US automakers and their troubles

[TheNiche]

I can make a Camaro or Stang destroy a Miata

Uh, yah! You're pitting 450 hp monster against a lightweight 4 cyl. Not even a chance.

[ricco67]

Which is why I say the Jap cars are too vanilla for my taste. Safe, reliable and boring. Maybe when I am 50.

And Niche, how much smaller can you go from a Mazda 6? Don't you ever travel or take people in your car? How many people and gear can you really fit in a Yaris?

actually you would be surprised at how much you can put in one. i am looking to get one myself.

certain cars are designed to fit certain demographics. a good example is the honda element and another that totally slipped my mind.

[MidtownCoog]

So which Toyota model did they rebadge for the GS, LS, SC and IS? I'm having a bit of difficulty figuring that one out...

The LS/ GS and ES are your Camary, Avalon. The LX, GX and RX are your Land Cruiser, Forerunner and RAV4.

I guess the IS and the SC are the only unique ones.

Like I even care. They could all be free and I'd pass on them.

[TJones]

The LS/ GS and ES are your Camary, Avalon. The LX, GX and RX are your Land Cruiser, Forerunner and RAV4.

I guess the IS and the SC are the only unique ones.

Like I even care. They could all be free and I'd pass on them.

Nope the IS is a Corolla on steroids. SC is a Solara mod.

[woolie]

but I've experienced two spinouts on the winding Hill Country roads of Hays County. It also fishtailed on wet roads really badly and had multiple AC problems.

That's why I loved my Miata. It brings you close enough to Death to make life more vibrant. :)

Seriously, I loved my Miata. I wish I had another one.

[webdude]

The LS/ GS and ES are your Camary, Avalon. The LX, GX and RX are your Land Cruiser, Forerunner and RAV4.

I guess the IS and the SC are the only unique ones.

Like I even care. They could all be free and I'd pass on them.

Good thing you are the exception rather than the norm. Americans are getting smarter and giving american brand cars a pass. But car rental companies keep buying those unwanted cars to keep the 3 in business. Even that is changing

[MidtownCoog]

How in the world is that a good thing?

Let the sheeple celebrate and drive around the fire in their Hondas and Toyotas!

Judging by a number of posts in this thread you'd think many of you hope Detroit fails.

[jm1fd]

Nope the IS is a Corolla on steroids. SC is a Solara mod.

I don't buy that for a second. The Solara and Corolla are both front wheel drive platforms. Cite a source, or I call BS.

[webdude]

I would say a Ford GT would pretty much be the whole friggin Baskin Robbins 31 flavors store as far as performance, and looks are concerned. I will be happy to put a Z06 Vette or GTS Viper against an M3 M5 or Supra Turbo, anyday of the week.

I can make a Camaro or Stang destroy a Miata or IS300 any day of the week. All you'll see is the tailights as you are left sitting at the greenlight. But yes, they are fun cars, if you want to run in a soapbox derby ? J/K, I am strictly American Muscle though when it comes to cars, but I can appreciate a fine engineered anything, carwise.

isn't gt, vette and viper more expensive than supra turbo, m3 and m5?

[webdude]

How in the world is that a good thing?

Let the sheeple celebrate and drive around the fire in their Hondas and Toyotas!

Judging by a number of posts in this thread you'd think many of you hope Detroit fails.

By giving them false hopes, thats what will make Detroit fail. We want them to be competitive based on it being good in all areas, not just because they are American. We are not doing ithem any favors if we don't make them see reality. Because they think there will always be brand royalty based on it being an American brand, they will not focus on real market needs, which is the only thing that will make them a success in the long run.

[jm1fd]

The LS/ GS and ES are your Camary, Avalon.

The LS and GS are derived from front wheel drive platforms? Uhmmm...no. You know not of what you speak.

The LS is, and always has been its very own platform.

The first generation GS was derived from the Crown (JDM only).

The latter generations are their own platforms.

[TheNiche]

Good thing you are the exception rather than the norm. Americans are getting smarter and giving american brand cars a pass. But car rental companies keep buying those unwanted cars to keep the 3 in business. Even that is changing

Rental car companies go to the lowest-cost provider. They've never cared who that was.

[MidtownCoog]

Whoopie-doo! They all still look the same. Especially the new Camary. Noboday said they are bad cars if you take time to read this thread.

I just said they are BORING vanilla. You can still drive yours with pride.

And WebDude, enough with the Oprah act. Not all American cars are bad. Try to find one person here that said they buy them just becuase they are American.

[Mr. Chenevert]

The LS/ GS and ES are your Camary, Avalon. The LX, GX and RX are your Land Cruiser, Forerunner and RAV4.

I guess the IS and the SC are the only unique ones.

Like I even care. They could all be free and I'd pass on them.

Since this is way off topic and all...

The LS and GS are both seperate RWD platforms... the ES is a FWD platform. The ES and Camry are indeed siblings. The Avalon however is also a FWD platform and has nothing to do with the platform used on the GS or LS.

The LS has its very own platform, not shared with any other car/truck on the planet.

The current GS and IS share a platform, the GS one being stretched a few inches. The previous IS (the IS300) actually was known as the Toyota Altezza in Japan although it came with a 2.0 litre engine rather than the 3.0 litre that came to America. If there ever was such a thing as a rebadged Toyota, that was the one and they did a hell of a job.

I dont care about SUV's and wish they didnt exist, but I cant help but correct you. The LX is indeed your Land Cruiser, but the GX is not based off of the 4 Runner, it has its own platform. The RX is not based off of the Rav 4, it is based of the same platform as the camry. BMW uses the same strategy when building the X3 and X5. The X3 is based off of the 3 series platform and the X5, well hopefully I dont need to spell it out for you. So if you believe that Toyota's use of platform sharing is "cheap" or "bad", I just wanted to alert you that your sacred and overpriced BMW counterparts do the exact same thing.

A 3 series without the optional sport package handles like ____. I will say that one more time in all caps so you read it. S-H-I-T. If you believe that suspension really is everything, you really really need to move away from Houston. Our wonderful city has no twisties or hills. Nothing to make a suspension shine other than by its ability to absorb potholes well, in which the 3 series sucks with its aluminum control arms that cost $2000 to replace or its lack of a spare tire when you puncture a tire at 1am.

I think my rant is done, but Im sure you will reply with something like "Ford forever" and I will again slam my head into my desk for wasting the time to explain to you why you are mistaken. I fall into this trap every 6 months or so...

[MidtownCoog]

I dont care about SUV's and wish they didnt exist, but I cant help but correct you.

This statement says all I need to know about you. One day when you have kids you just might need an SUV.

Until then live large in your tin-roof (rusted) townhome and drive that rice burner baby-car like you mean it!

[TheNiche]

This statement says all I need to know about you. One day when you have kids you just might need an SUV.

Until then live large in your tin-roof (rusted) townhome and drive that rice burner baby-car like you mean it!

...since when is an SUV a prerequisite for childrearing?

[Mr. Chenevert]

This statement says all I need to know about you. One day when you have kids you just might need an SUV.

Until then live large in your tin-roof (rusted) townhome and drive that rice burner baby-car like you mean it!

My gf drives a Toureg.... dont get me wrong, they are handy at times. I see the attraction...

but everytime I consider purchasing an Audi S4 with the 6 speed, I cant get over the fact that I would have to pay a $1800 gas guzzler tax while anyone driving a Hummer H2 (or any of the large SUV's) gets off scott free due to tax loopholes. It's absolute BS.

If we are actually trying to decrease our dependance on foreign oil, then why are we giving tax breaks to people that increase our dependance on it????

[TJones]

I don't buy that for a second. The Solara and Corolla are both front wheel drive platforms. Cite a source, or I call BS.

Corolla and IS share basically the same dimensions different platform codes, that is why I said, "Corolla on STEROIDS".

I did mispeak about the SC though, it is based off the Soarer NOT Solara platform. So, You got me. Toyota is the king of platform sharing, so it gets confusing with all the names. Nissan is a close second. I read that Toyota has dropped from 40 platforms to just 14, that is quite a feat.

[TJones]

...since when is an SUV a prerequisite for childrearing?

Niche, trust me, Having an SUV to take the kiddos from school to soccer practice to McDonald's and whatever else happens in a day, makes life MUCH easier my friend. My wife begged me for a car, because she thought she was tired of driving an SUV around, she wasn't feelin' the whole "Soccermom" mentality thing yet, so she has been in a car for the last year. Guess what she has been asking for the last 6 months. "Honey, can we get another Expedition ?" I didn't want to give up the Expedition in the first place. It was a NICE Expedition, it was all black and chrome with, 20" rims, leathered up, not ghetto, but not vanilla either. It was just right. But NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, Momma wants a car, so Momma gets a car.

Sorry for the double post.

[webdude]

Whoopie-doo! They all still look the same. Especially the new Camary. Noboday said they are bad cars if you take time to read this thread.

I just said they are BORING vanilla. You can still drive yours with pride.

And WebDude, enough with the Oprah act. Not all American cars are bad. Try to find one person here that said they buy them just becuase they are American.

For equally priced cars, american brand cars do not compare.

And the market has already determine that, not me.

Sorry, oprah calling not going change that.

[jm1fd]

Corolla and IS share basically the same dimensions different platform codes, that is why I said, "Corolla on STEROIDS".

I did mispeak about the SC though, it is based off the Soarer NOT Solara platform. So, You got me. Toyota is the king of platform sharing, so it gets confusing with all the names. Nissan is a close second. I read that Toyota has dropped from 40 platforms to just 14, that is quite a feat.

I see. So major differences between vehicles can just be glossed over if they're dimensionally similar. Excellent. I've got a lovely 575 Maranello for sale...don't mind that badge on the back that says Accord Coupe....those crazy Italians have SUCH pranksters.

The Soarer is the branding of the SC for the JDM...same car, same trim levels, different badge. BTW, the Soarer brand is no more in Japan. They dropped it last year...they're calling it a Lexus SC 430 now.

[Mr. Chenevert]

Corolla and IS share basically the same dimensions different platform codes, that is why I said, "Corolla on STEROIDS".

I did mispeak about the SC though, it is based off the Soarer NOT Solara platform. So, You got me. Toyota is the king of platform sharing, so it gets confusing with all the names. Nissan is a close second. I read that Toyota has dropped from 40 platforms to just 14, that is quite a feat.

Not to nit pick, but you are wrong again.

The SC has its own platform. Soarer is simply the name of the car in Japan. Prior to last year, there was no Lexus brand in Japan, so the SC was sold as the Toyota Soarer in Japan.

VW/Audi/Porsche are the kings of platform sharing, with a close second to Nissan.

Golf/Beetle/Jetta/TT/A3

Passat/A4/upcoming SUV

Toureg/Cayenne/Q7

Thats 11 cars out of 3 platforms, and Im probably forgetting one.

[Mr. Chenevert]

Nissan was on the verge on bankruptcy a few years back, and Ghosn, who turned Renault around, took the helm.

Out of necessity, they produced the:

G35

G35 Coupe

FX35

350Z

Out of one platform, one engine, and two transmissions (Auto and Manual). Impressive feat, albeit they had to make a lot of sacrifices. Check out the control arms on a 350Z sometime, they look like they came off of a tank... err, FX35... no wonder the curb weight of the 350Z is heavier than any of its competitors.

[jm1fd]

Nissan was on the verge on bankruptcy a few years back, and Ghosn, who turned Renault around, took the helm.

Out of necessity, they produced the:

G35

G35 Coupe

FX35

350Z

Out of one platform, one engine, and two transmissions (Auto and Manual). Impressive feat, albeit they had to make a lot of sacrifices. Check out the control arms on a 350Z sometime, they look like they came off of a tank... err, FX35... no wonder the curb weight of the 350Z is heavier than any of its competitors.

Ahhh yes, the good 'ol FM platform. Every one of the cars based on it was a huge hit 'cept the tree fiddy.

[nmainguy]

I guess bad drivers all drive American brands.....and Mercedes.

My SO and I are good drivers. Our pristine 98' Ford 150 has 65,000 miles. My 83' 350 Mercedes has over 200,000 miles. Our 06' Lexus was stolen the day after we bought it. My little sister is still driving an 04' Toyota built in the US.

Her boss mocked her for driving a "foreign car." She asked him why he drove a Canadian built Buick while she drove a US built Toyota. She was dismissed 3 months later and immediately went to work for Harold Farb. The hypocrisy is stunning.

[TJones]

I see. So major differences between vehicles can just be glossed over if they're dimensionally similar. Excellent. I've got a lovely 575 Maranello for sale...don't mind that badge on the back that says Accord Coupe....those crazy Italians have SUCH pranksters.

The Soarer is the branding of the SC for the JDM...same car, same trim levels, different badge. BTW, the Soarer brand is no more in Japan. They dropped it last year...they're calling it a Lexus SC 430 now.

Hate to break it to you,but the Soarer was around long before they decided to make it part of the Lexus brand. I am talking about 1st generation Lexus SC which was 3rd generation Toyota Soarer at the time. Not the SC430 introduced in 2001. Btw, Toyota dropped Soarer in 2005.

[jm1fd]

Hate to break it to you,but the Soarer was around long before they decided to make it part of the Lexus brand. I am talking about 1st generation Lexus SC which was 3rd generation Toyota Soarer at the time. Not the SC430 introduced in 2001. Btw, Toyota dropped Soarer in 2005.

I see. So you're saying that they haven't changed the basic engineering of the car since it was a Toyota-only product back in 1981? WRONG. It has had 3 ground up redesigns since then.

The first generation SC (3rd generation Soarer) was designed in California (at the Calty facility) first and foremost as a Lexus product for American tastes. They tweaked some of the feature sets and drivetrains for the JDM Soarer.

[TJones]

I see. So you're saying that they haven't changed the basic engineering of the car since it was a Toyota-only product back in 1981? WRONG. It has had 3 ground up redesigns since then.

The first generation SC (3rd generation Soarer) was designed in California (at the Calty facility) first and foremost as a Lexus product for American tastes. They tweaked some of the feature sets and drivetrains for the JDM Soarer.

It could have had 20 redesigns, still doesn't change the fact that the SC was on the Soarer platform cheif.

[jm1fd]

It could have had 20 redesigns, still doesn't change the fact that the SC was on the Soarer platform cheif.

I see. So that logic would mean that every Ford product is based on the Model T platform.

[MidtownCoog]

Sure, just like Toyo and Corolla.