Rail To Uptown In Time For The Super Bowl?

[kdog08]

OTC and Rodeo don't really compare to the Superbowl. The Superbowl is a large party that will be spread across many of Houston's scenes that will involve not only out of towners but a large crowd drawn from Houston's 6 million peeps. 

[Slick Vik]

It has everything to do with what your saying.  Public transit has a cost and it has a value.  Houston has assigned a low value to transit and has chosen to spend its money in other areas.  It is excelling economically well above cities that have assigned a high value to public transit at the cost of other things.  I think that it's very much open to discussion whether Houston is choosing a wiser path.

 

No, it has nothing to do with that. Other areas = highway expansion and toll roads, which has not eliminated the problem of hellacious traffic during rush hour in mornings and evenings.

[Slick Vik]

I can't speak for Sydney, Athens or Vancouver, but I was living in Atlanta during the Olympics in 1996 and there were no significant public transit upgrades other than adding HOV lanes. Having lived in Atlanta during the 90's I can also tell you Houston's bus system is far, far better than what they had in Atlanta.

Given Houston's track record for growth, there's a good chance some of the things they do elsewhere are stupid. I'm not advocating we do nothing. I'm just not fixated on trains as the solution for every transit problem.

 

What about MARTA expansion?

[kdog08]

That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

 

Houston has the worst public transit system of any large city in North America. And it's due to the citizens and politicians.

 

They've also left tremendous public transportation upgrades for the cities that hosted them. Atlanta, Sydney, Athens, Vancouver, etc.

 

You're right, let's just do nothing, like we have for the last 30 years. We're Houston and we know what's best, the rest of the world is just stupid.

 

 

We certainly need to improve our system but in terms of hosting events I would argue we have a very underrated transit system. We will soon have all of our major sports venues connected to rail and hotels and night life. We could open up the park&ride and make flexible bus schedules to accommodate events, like this superbowl. Then us Houstonians can leave our cars at the park&ride or carpool to the P&R.  

That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

 

Houston has the worst public transit system of any large city in North America. And it's due to the citizens and politicians.

 

They've also left tremendous public transportation upgrades for the cities that hosted them. Atlanta, Sydney, Athens, Vancouver, etc.

 

You're right, let's just do nothing, like we have for the last 30 years. We're Houston and we know what's best, the rest of the world is just stupid.

 

 

We certainly need to improve our system but in terms of hosting events I would argue we have a very underrated transit system. We will soon have all of our major sports venues connected to rail and hotels and night life. We could open up the park&ride and make flexible bus schedules to accommodate events, like this superbowl. Then us Houstonians can leave our cars at the park&ride or carpool to the P&R.  

[Slick Vik]

We certainly need to improve our system but in terms of hosting events I would argue we have a very underrated transit system. We will soon have all of our major sports venues connected to rail and hotels and night life. We could open up the park&ride and make flexible bus schedules to accommodate events, like this superbowl. Then us Houstonians can leave our cars at the park&ride or carpool to the P&R.  

 

I honestly think if we finished the university and uptown lines, with an extra two lines, one going to each airport (and also greenspoint as a result), we would have a fairly good transit system for the city. After that, all the expansions would basically be commuter rail like westpark ROW, galveston, hempstead, Fort Bend, etc. Katy could've been another one but those tracks were ripped out unceremoniously.

OTC and Rodeo don't really compare to the Superbowl. The Superbowl is a large party that will be spread across many of Houston's scenes that will involve not only out of towners but a large crowd drawn from Houston's 6 million peeps. 

 

This

[august948]

No, it has nothing to do with that. Other areas = highway expansion and toll roads, which has not eliminated the problem of hellacious traffic during rush hour in mornings and evenings.

Is there a city of comparable size that doesn't have rush hour traffic?

[august948]

What about MARTA expansion?

I will assume by MARTA you mean the rail system, since MARTA is the name for the overall transit authority, like METRO is for us. Which expansion are you talking about? The only one I can think of that happened in that time frame was the extension up GA 400. That only added two stations and didn't even cross the Perimeter.

[urban909]

Is there a city of comparable size that doesn't have rush hour traffic?

 

I'll take that a step further: Is there a city of comparable size (with multimodal transit options) that doesn't have rush hour traffic?

[kylejack]

Vancouver was left with a $1B debt hangover, an Olympic village that was rebranded and eventually went into receivership, and still haven't paid off all the debt.

[C2H]

It would be nice if the ULine could be put back on the board, but I think BRT would be the next best thing.

[shasta]

Vancouver was left with a $1B debt hangover, an Olympic village that was rebranded and eventually went into receivership, and still haven't paid off all the debt.

 

I believe the Houston Olympic Plan was a bit more responsible, if not the most fiscally responsible bid ever put out there. The City was prepared to use already built, and financed,  stadiums and arenas (Reliant, Toyota, Minute Maid, etc.). The Olympic Village was slatted to be built on the campus of the University of Houston and were planned to be  converted to dorms after the Olympics were over. 

[august948]

Vancouver was left with a $1B debt hangover, an Olympic village that was rebranded and eventually went into receivership, and still haven't paid off all the debt.

Montreal lost $2 Billion and it took 30 years to pay it off.

[ricco67]

I'm late for this one, but here's my view:

 

 

Rodeo IS bigger than OTC because of the sheer number of people that do come from out of town and is a 21 day event vs 4 days.  During this time almost every hotel is booked up from downtown to anywhere near the 610 loop.  Business people that normally book inside of the loop are generally pushed into lower ranked hotels or those that are even further out.

 

With traffic at reliant, the typical event strategy won't work;  Typically they have officers at various signal lights immediately surrounding the stadium with little central coordination between them.  Add to that that the other lights further out are useless at handling the additional traffic.

 

They will need to not only beef up the bus routes too and from downtown, but create a route to the galleria where a fair share of the hotels are located. Perhaps this will be the motivation they will need add some badly needed "Quickline" routes.  Hopefully, they will do it so you can easily cross one side of the city to another, and I don't just mean east to west, but north to south.

 

The number of cars on the rail line will need to be increased to beyond the typical "Rush hour" intervals. 

 

[Slick Vik]

Vancouver was left with a $1B debt hangover, an Olympic village that was rebranded and eventually went into receivership, and still haven't paid off all the debt.

 

It also had expansion of the SkyTrain which has helped the general population immensely. I go twice a year and have seen it for myself.

 

 

I'll take that a step further: Is there a city of comparable size (with multimodal transit options) that doesn't have rush hour traffic?

 

 

 

I'll play devil's advocate and ask how much worse would the traffic be without any options besides bus? And, are you admitting that freeway expansion doesn't stop rush hour traffic as well?

[samagon]

??

 

The Olympics have been terrible for many cities that hosted it, leaving them with a legacy of debt and useless facilities that can't be transitioned into something usable again. I will fight tooth and nail to keep the Olympics out of Houston.

 

I like this post so much that I want to like it again.

 

You'd think after people see the amount of money we've wasted on the Astrodome just since it was abandoned and still we have no direction for the thing.

 

The 'dome was a losing proposition, just as most stadiums are, but we got some fair use out of it, now what? 

 

And like there'd be any other destiny for the Olympic dive pool and Olympic swimming pool complexes in Houston?

[urban909]

I'll play devil's advocate and ask how much worse would the traffic be without any options besides bus? And, are you admitting that freeway expansion doesn't stop rush hour traffic as well?

 

What I am saying is that transit options shouldn't be looked at from a single viewpoint, i.e. "traffic reduction". (See induced demand to answer both of your questions).

[Nate99]

I'm contemplating orchestrating a hoax wherein all of the celebrity spotters get duped in to showing up for an open party hosted by Jay-Z on board a cargo ship docked in LaPorte the night before the game. 

 

It could be used to clear out the uptown traffic with some official sponsorship. PM me Annise if you want in on it.

[august948]

I'll play devil's advocate and ask how much worse would the traffic be without any options besides bus? And, are you admitting that freeway expansion doesn't stop rush hour traffic as well?

There's an assumption here that it is possible or desirable to stop rush hour traffic. There's only one way to do that and that would be to eliminate the economic activity that generates it. In other words, plow the city under, disperse the population to the countryside, and make everyone farm or fish for a living. Is that your vision? Does having the Sky Train in Vancouver stop rush hour traffic? I know from experience that the trains in San Francisco, Portland, and Atlanta don't.

[Slick Vik]

There's an assumption here that it is possible or desirable to stop rush hour traffic. There's only one way to do that and that would be to eliminate the economic activity that generates it. In other words, plow the city under, disperse the population to the countryside, and make everyone farm or fish for a living. Is that your vision? Does having the Sky Train in Vancouver stop rush hour traffic? I know from experience that the trains in San Francisco, Portland, and Atlanta don't.

 

The skytrain in vancouver has significantly higher ridership than what was initially projected (speaking for the canada line), so in that sense, rush hour traffic has reduced to an extent. The point is if you make transit that is fast, frequent, and affordable over a busy corridor it will make life easier for thousands, if not millions of people. At the end of the day that's what it is about, the convenience and satisfaction of the populace. Unfortunately, it seems slowly this country is going away from that as we are getting rid of pension plans and talking about cutting Medcare and Social Security, and any in many places any improvements to public transportation or adapting universal health care are hit with severe backlash. It's more about what's best for me and not about what's best for US as a society. And that is tragic.

[totheskies]

Here's my view....

 

Super Bowl or no, we know that this metropolitan area is growing at such a fast clip that it will soon be critical to connect all of our major CBDs by multiple transportation modes.  Whether that is a BRT system or rail system, it just needs to move forward... sooner than later.  SB isn't going to change that reality, but it very well may reveal it to the rest of the world, as was done with the All-Star game.  A metropolitan area that has 6 million people needs to have options for moving them around. 

 

If we're going to build something, it needs to be rail... at least eventually.  But that's not going to be possible to finish before SB.  We could however build a decent BRT system with grade-separated rights-of-way and have that operational in time.  Then come back when Houston decides to take the leap and convert it to a rail line.  At-grade lines may be ok for the eastern half of the inner city, but we really need to INVEST for the University Line (or whatever line would connect Downtown and the Galleria).   

[Slick Vik]

Here's my view....

 

Super Bowl or no, we know that this metropolitan area is growing at such a fast clip that it will soon be critical to connect all of our major CBDs by multiple transportation modes.  Whether that is a BRT system or rail system, it just needs to move forward... sooner than later.  SB isn't going to change that reality, but it very well may reveal it to the rest of the world, as was done with the All-Star game.  A metropolitan area that has 6 million people needs to have options for moving them around. 

 

If we're going to build something, it needs to be rail... at least eventually.  But that's not going to be possible to finish before SB.  We could however build a decent BRT system with grade-separated rights-of-way and have that operational in time.  Then come back when Houston decides to take the leap and convert it to a rail line.  At-grade lines may be ok for the eastern half of the inner city, but we really need to INVEST for the University Line (or whatever line would connect Downtown and the Galleria).   

 

Grade seperated will never happen in our city, our best chances were the 1983 referendum that got shot down and the monorail that Bob Lanier shot down and handed money over to HPD. These short sighted decisions put the city decades behind in terms of quality transit.

[RedScare]

We already have several grade separations under construction now.

[august948]

The skytrain in vancouver has significantly higher ridership than what was initially projected (speaking for the canada line), so in that sense, rush hour traffic has reduced to an extent. The point is if you make transit that is fast, frequent, and affordable over a busy corridor it will make life easier for thousands, if not millions of people. At the end of the day that's what it is about, the convenience and satisfaction of the populace. Unfortunately, it seems slowly this country is going away from that as we are getting rid of pension plans and talking about cutting Medcare and Social Security, and any in many places any improvements to public transportation or adapting universal health care are hit with severe backlash. It's more about what's best for me and not about what's best for US as a society. And that is tragic.

So in Vancouver the transit agency didn't get the initial projections right (shock!) and therefore traffic has been reduced by exactly how much? I thought you were talking about stopping rush hour traffic not reducing it, or more likely it's growth, by a insignificant fraction. And at what cost?

[Slick Vik]

So in Vancouver the transit agency didn't get the initial projections right (shock!) and therefore traffic has been reduced by exactly how much? I thought you were talking about stopping rush hour traffic not reducing it, or more likely it's growth, by a insignificant fraction. And at what cost?

Government money's top priorities should be spent on transit, health care, and education. These are very important issues for ordinary people. I would call you cheap but its not that, libertarians want money spent but only on what they like. I don't see you complaining when billions are spent on freeways, please stop the hypocrisy.

[mfastx]

It has everything to do with what your saying.  Public transit has a cost and it has a value.  Houston has assigned a low value to transit and has chosen to spend its money in other areas.  It is excelling economically well above cities that have assigned a high value to public transit at the cost of other things.  I think that it's very much open to discussion whether Houston is choosing a wiser path.

 

Houston is doing well economically but that is not the only factor in determining the quality of the city.  The fact is Houston falls behind other US cities in terms of global economic impact, and the cities it trails assign a higher value to public transportation than we do. 

 

Houston is very inefficient when it comes to infrastructure spending, public transportation is a more efficient way of moving people.

[jt16]

Houston is doing well economically but that is not the only factor in determining the quality of the city. The fact is Houston falls behind other US cities in terms of global economic impact, and the cities it trails assign a higher value to public transportation than we do.

Houston is very inefficient when it comes to infrastructure spending, public transportation is a more efficient way of moving people.

We fall behind in global economic impact because of a lack of rail line? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Our port is infinitely more important to global impact than a rail line. And I'm a libertarian in favor of rail. At least people will pay for that mode of transport.

[mfastx]

We fall behind in global economic impact because of a lack of rail line? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Our port is infinitely more important to global impact than a rail line. And I'm a libertarian in favor of rail. At least people will pay for that mode of transport.

 

The word rail isn't in my post.  I was responding to someone who asserted that we are doing better economically than cities who assign a higher value to public transit, and that isn't the case. 

 

We spend more on roads per capita than any other major city.  And we are not at the top economically.  Obviously public transit isn't the main factor that determines that, but having a good public transportation system in a large city is important.  Rail isn't the only thing either.  Just building rail doesn't automatically make your public transportation system better, although it helps. 

[RedScare]

Government money's top priorities should be spent on transit, health care, and education. These are very important issues for ordinary people. I would call you cheap but its not that, libertarians want money spent but only on what they like. I don't see you complaining when billions are spent on freeways, please stop the hypocrisy.

 

It sounds like you want money spent only on what you like as well.

 

Are you libertarian?

[Slick Vik]

Houston is doing well economically but that is not the only factor in determining the quality of the city. The fact is Houston falls behind other US cities in terms of global economic impact, and the cities it trails assign a higher value to public transportation than we do.

Houston is very inefficient when it comes to infrastructure spending, public transportation is a more efficient way of moving people.

The level of air pollution takes away from the quality of the city also

[Slick Vik]

It sounds like you want money spent only on what you like as well.

Are you libertarian?

Those are the most common sense issues for any average joe. Education helps your mind grow so you can achieve anything, health care takes care of you when you get sick, not if but when, and transport takes you from a to b.