Why some people hate the suburbs

[Ethanra]

Easy...anything inside the beltway is inner city...anything outside of it it's suburbs.

I don't think so... Maybe inside the west side of Houston inside the beltway (some parts). Travel outside the loop north, east, and south. Looks anything but inner city.

[memebag]

Because a suburb is a general location, not construction style. You can't bulldoze Toyota Center, install tract-style family houses with lawns and garages and call that a suburb.

Neither can you build Toyota Center in an empty field at some specified distance from the city center and call that a suburb. You'd have to build single family homes with yards.

Its not in the right place. There are building styles often found in the suburbs, certainly, but its their location, not the building style, that makes them a suburb.

But Westbury isn't any nearer to the center of Houston today than it was when it was built. If it's location made it a suburb in the 50s and 60s, then it's still a suburb. It's location hasn't changed.

Location is a subjective measure without something concrete like population density and dwelling type to calibrate it. You can't say suburbs start at n miles from a CBD center, and exurbs start at n+m miles. You have to look at how many people live there and what they live in on a case by case basis to come up with useful models.

Easy...anything inside the beltway is inner city...anything outside of it it's suburbs.

Then the term "inner city" has no meaning. The beltway is full of classic suburbs. We can't start calling that inner city. What will we call real inner city areas?

[Jeebus]

Are you going to lose some sort of tax-credit if Haifers refuse to acknowledge Westbury as a suburb?

And if a major sports stadium was built in an empty field, lets say out on 288 south of 610, then yes, it would be in the "suburbs".

[citizen4rmptown]

Eh.. This whole conversation has lost focus. We can't even agree on what exactly is suburban in a city like Houston.

Like i said no one will win any argument about suburbs vs inner city

when a proper term AND examples are agreed upon EVERYBODY

[memebag]

Are you going to lose some sort of tax-credit if Haifers refuse to acknowledge Westbury as a suburb?

Are you going to lose a tax credit if they do?

And if a major sports stadium was built in an empty field, lets say out on 288 south of 610, then yes, it would be in the "suburbs".

Only if it was surrounded by suburbs. The location doesn't make it a suburb.

And 288 south of 610 is closer to the center of Houston than Westbury.

[Jeebus]

Only if it was surrounded by suburbs. The location doesn't make it a suburb.

You'll have to explain this one to me, and probably everyone else here.

[memebag]

You'll have to explain this one to me, and probably everyone else here.

OK. Let's say the proposed locational definition for a suburb in Jeebus City is 40 miles from the center. Then let's say there's an empty 1,000 acre field 40 miles from the center of Jeebus City. A lone sports stadium built in that field won't be a suburb by anyone's understanding of the term. Location isn't the key factor.

If the sports stadium was built at the same location, but among single family dwellings with a population density of, say, 1,500 people per square mile, then it would be in the suburbs. It wouldn't matter if those dwellings were 40 miles or 20 miles from the city center, the land use would be suburban.

[Jeebus]

Semantics. I give up. Westbury is the burbs.

I'm out.

[HtownWxBoy]

Some people like suburbs, some like cities, some like farms... live where you like... I definitely prefer cities... that's just my preference.

Why I dislike the suburbs...

- they are further away from city centers and things that come with cities (better restaurants, shopping, clubs, bars, museums, theaters, etc.)

- very little diversity

- homes seem more "mass produced"

- people tend to be more socially conservative / close-minded

- lifestyles of those who live in suburbs (not everyone of course!) seem more "robotic"... they get up, go to work, drive home from work, make dinner, watch tv, go to bed... *yawn*.

- too quiet! too boring! too slow-paced!

- larger percentage of residents belong to cults... I believe they call them "churches"

- too many kids and minivans... also too many soccer / cheerleader moms and football fathers trying to relive their "glory days" through their kids since their lives now suck

- people interact with each other much less

- people, on average, tend to be more stupid (they think all blacks want to rob them... all gays want to steal and eat their children... all muslims are terrorists... you get the picture.) I work with more than 1 surburbanite who are afraid to go Downtown b/c they believe will get robbed or run over by the light rail... those words have come out of their mouths... either has yet to happen to me.

I could go on but I'll stop there. These are must my opinions... some people love suburbs and if they do they should live there... I would probably kill myself... but that's just me.

[memebag]

Why I dislike the suburbs...

...

- people, on average, tend to be more stupid (they think all blacks want to rob them... all gays want to steal and eat their children... all muslims are terrorists... you get the picture.) I work with more than 1 surburbanite who are afraid to go Downtown b/c they believe will get robbed or run over by the light rail... those words have come out of their mouths... either has yet to happen to me.

Yeah, stereotyping is bad. (Mmmkay?) And, on average, suburbanites are all a bunch of stereotypers.

[Jeebus]

Why I dislike the suburbs...

- they are further away from city centers and things that come with cities (better restaurants, shopping, clubs, bars, museums, theaters, etc.)

- very little diversity

- homes seem more "mass produced"

- people tend to be more socially conservative / close-minded

- lifestyles of those who live in suburbs (not everyone of course!) seem more "robotic"... they get up, go to work, drive home from work, make dinner, watch tv, go to bed... *yawn*.

- too quiet! too boring! too slow-paced!

- larger percentage of residents belong to cults... I believe they call them "churches"

- too many kids and minivans... also too many soccer / cheerleader moms and football fathers trying to relive their "glory days" through their kids since their lives now suck

- people interact with each other much less

All these are valid reasons, but most of them stem from children. If you ever have one, no matter how much you love urban environments, suddenly all its flaws will reveal themselves. You'll at some point debate the suburbs the exact same as we have: better (public) schools, percieved to be safer, more quiet, and more assimilation which seems less stressful.

I know to any urbanite these are horrible things to wish for, but I'm telling you, kids will make you at least consider it - and in most cases make it happen. To those that are brave enough to stay in the city with children I commend you though. It takes twice as much money and/or work to give your kid the same amenities as the suburbs. I wish I was as brave/wealthy as a friend of mine who raises his kids in Pecan Park on the southeast side. Actually, I wish my wife was!

- people, on average, tend to be more stupid (they think all blacks want to rob them... all gays want to steal and eat their children... all muslims are terrorists... you get the picture.) I work with more than 1 surburbanite who are afraid to go Downtown b/c they believe will get robbed or run over by the light rail... those words have come out of their mouths... either has yet to happen to me.

Well, you're absolutely right. I blame the news media. If they would start reporting on all the white on white crimes, versus choosing to racially single out Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims as the criminal element in the suburbs, maybe those living in said suburbs would start to change their thinking.

As for the gay-hating, blame your local church. I'm no major proponent of homosexuality (not for it, not against it), but I refuse to go to a church that wastes it's time "scaring everyone straight". Actually, since moving to the burbs four years ago, I have YET to go to church. Yay for me! (I hope my wife never reads this.. )

[houstonmacbro]

All these are valid reasons, but most of them stem from children. If you ever have one, no matter how much you love urban environments, suddenly all its flaws will reveal themselves. You'll as some point debate the suburbs the exact same as we have: better (public) schools, percieved to be safer, more quiet, and more assimilation which seems less stressful.

I know to any urbanite these are horrible things to wish for, but I'm telling you, kids will make you at least consider it - and in most cases make it happen. To those that are brave enough to stay in the city with children I commend you though. It takes twice as much money and/or work to give your kid the same amenities as the suburbs. I wish I was as brave/wealthy as a friend of mine who raises his kids in Pecan Park on the southeast side. Actually, I wish my wife was!

Well, you're absolutely right. I blame the news media. If they would start reporting on all the white on white crimes, versus choosing to racially single out Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims as the criminal element in the suburbs, maybe those living in said suburbs would start to change their thinking.

As for the gay-hating, blame your local church. I'm no major proponent of homosexuality (not for it, not against it), but I refuse to go to a church that wastes it time "scaring everyone straight". Actually, since moving to the burbs four years ago, I have YET to go to church. Yay for me! (I hope my wife never reads this.. )

You make some good points. I feel there is a lot of inner-loop snobbery on this board. It seems that if you're not inside the Loop (610 not the Beltway) you're somehow a weirdo or whacko.

As I've said before, people often live where they can afford and what makes sense for their lifestyles and commutes.

I bought a house here (well, actually the bank did and I am just leasing it from them) because it is 5 miles to my suburban job. I'd love to live IN the city, but I'd have a 20+ mile reverse commute which seems pretty illogical to me.

[kylejack]

But Westbury isn't any nearer to the center of Houston today than it was when it was built. If it's location made it a suburb in the 50s and 60s, then it's still a suburb. It's location hasn't changed.

Its not a suburb of Houston...it is Houston. It can't be both a suburb of the thing as well as the thing itself.

Location is a subjective measure without something concrete like population density and dwelling type to calibrate it. You can't say suburbs start at n miles from a CBD center, and exurbs start at n+m miles. You have to look at how many people live there and what they live in on a case by case basis to come up with useful models.

Then the term "inner city" has no meaning. The beltway is full of classic suburbs. We can't start calling that inner city. What will we call real inner city areas?

I agree, the term inner city has no meaning. Still, anything within Houston city limits is not a suburb of Houston.

And if anyone brings up Kingwood I'll throttle them.

[memebag]

Its not a suburb of Houston...it is Houston. It can't be both a suburb of the thing as well as the thing itself.

Houston annexes its suburbs. Being inside the city limits doesn't change the land use.

The term "urban" has meaning, and Westbury isn't urban.

[kylejack]

You make some good points. I feel there is a lot of inner-loop snobbery on this board. It seems that if you're not inside the Loop (610 not the Beltway) you're somehow a weirdo or whacko.

Of course not. Its just that people prioritize differently. Some people thing having every chain restaurant within a 5 to 10 minute drive is something positive, and others would be displeased in such an environment. Maybe if I had kids I would feel differently.

I bought a house here (well, actually the bank did and I am just leasing it from them) because it is 5 miles to my suburban job. I'd love to live IN the city, but I'd have a 20+ mile reverse commute which seems pretty illogical to me.

Reverse commutes are awesome, no traffic.

[BryanS]

Reverse commutes are awesome, no traffic.

Reverse commutes... can still kinda suck. I lived in Montrose for a few years, and even up around 610-290 for a few years... and did a lot of reverse commuting. Traffic is still pretty heavy, especially after work. Every now and then, I'll need to drive to downtown, after work. Traffic jam. Not as bad as on the other side of the freeway, but still. Then I ask myself: I did this for how long?

[VicMan]

Since Houston has many centers of employment it is difficult to define what a suburb is. A suburb of what? How do you define it? It's easier with northeastern cities than it is for Houston, Dallas, and Atlanta.

Anyhow, as for families there are some neighborhoods even in 610 very much dominated by families. Some neighborhoods are gaining an influx of families.

[BryanS]

Some people like suburbs, some like cities, some like farms... live where you like... I definitely prefer cities... that's just my preference.

Why I dislike the suburbs...

- they are further away from city centers and things that come with cities (better restaurants, shopping, clubs, bars, museums, theaters, etc.)

Pho Hoang, on NASA road 1, is better than Mai's and Hollywood Vietnamese. I have gay friends, who live in midtown, that will purposely drive down here to eat.

- very little diversity

I used to live within an arms length - literally - of a diverse night club, called Club Rainbow, at the Westheimer curve. It was a lesbian bar, full of diversity. The kind of diversity that, at 2:00 a.m., would become raucous and near-violent to violent, as the alcohol consumption was cut off.

- homes seem more "mass produced"

Everything is mass produced. The Heights was mass produced. Idylwood, mass produced. Midtown? Urban Lofts? Stepford Wives mass produced.

- people tend to be more socially conservative / close-minded

I've lived everywhere in this city. All I can say is... gay, gay, gay... all over the place. I just cannot escape the gay. No shortage of homosexual activity, no matter where I live.

- lifestyles of those who live in suburbs (not everyone of course!) seem more "robotic"... they get up, go to work, drive home from work, make dinner, watch tv, go to bed... *yawn*.

My reverse commute to work was "robotic." Except the drive was 40 to 50 minutes, usually frustrated sitting in traffic, telling myself: "This shouldn't be working like this. It's a reverse commute! I don't understand! Damn it!" Even you have to get up, eat, go to work, drive home from work, eat again, probably watch tv, and go to bed... that is what humans do.

- too quiet! too boring! too slow-paced!

Like I said, live behind a lesbian bar if you want to experience loud, exciting, fast-paced bar fights, at 2:00 a.m. Or live by the pool in a corp run nice, new apt complex over on Dallas...

- larger percentage of residents belong to cults... I believe they call them "churches"

Who cares. I just take the opportunity to "educate" them, when they knock on my door.

- too many kids and minivans... also too many soccer / cheerleader moms and football fathers trying to relive their "glory days" through their kids since their lives now suck

If you have kids, gay or straight, you are going to need a larger vehicle.

- people interact with each other much less

Thank you, Lord.

- people, on average, tend to be more stupid (they think all blacks want to rob them... all gays want to steal and eat their children... all muslims are terrorists... you get the picture.) I work with more than 1 surburbanite who are afraid to go Downtown b/c they believe will get robbed or run over by the light rail... those words have come out of their mouths... either has yet to happen to me.

It's happened. And I wouldn

[kylejack]

Pho Hoang, on NASA road 1, is better than Mai's and Hollywood Vietnamese. I have gay friends, who live in midtown, that will purposely drive down here to eat.

Mai's and Hollywood suck. Try Hoang Son (inside Kim Hung Market on St. Emanuel), Thiem Hung (on Leeland, killer beef stew), or Cali Sandwich.

[TheNiche]

Since Houston has many centers of employment it is difficult to define what a suburb is. A suburb of what? How do you define it? It's easier with northeastern cities than it is for Houston, Dallas, and Atlanta.

Anyhow, as for families there are some neighborhoods even in 610 very much dominated by families. Some neighborhoods are gaining an influx of families.

Subculturally. "Urban" doesn't actually necessitate a specific architectural or spatial form. It is defined by demographics and especially psychographic metrics. It is also defined, IMO, by how visible an area is to middle- or upper-income white people who believe themselves to be opinion leaders--and by virtue of that they're obnoxious and won't shut up--actually are. For instance 3rd Ward gets to be urban because white people have to drive through it to get to UH. And the Bellaire Blvd. Chinatown gets to be urban well beyond Beltway 8 because white people consider it to be a kind of ethnic theme park. But Pasadena, whose spatial form and demographics are very similar to many parts of "urban" Houston, may as well not exist. It isn't very visible to white people of sufficiently-high income. Same thing for La Porte or Highlands or Baytown. Even 5th Ward is sort of on the periphery of influential white people's awareness; again it has less to do with proximity to a Central Business District and more to do with how often it gets to be experienced in an "urban" context by white people.

People who place a great deal of social importance on whether an area is "urban" or "suburban" are in actuality just being uber-snobs. They're equally repugnant creatures regardless of habitat, like fashionistas who readily write someone off on account of the brand of clothing that is worn. They need to focus less on a definition of image or subcultural segregation from those whose image differs, and more on just doing what they really want to do with their life as individuals. Theirs can't be a happy existence.

[kylejack]

What I would like to do with my life as an individual is to stay inside the Loop.

[TheNiche]

What I would like to do with my life as an individual is to stay inside the Loop.

Well lets see, you gave five reasons in post #2.

Reasons to hate the suburbs:

1. Longer distances between things

2. The "things" are all cookie-cutter strip centers with national chains, few authentic interesting places

3. Less history

4. New uninspired cookie-cutter architecture

5. "family people" i.e. PTA Nazis, ragin' soccer dads, crappy bars full of old boring men who smoke like chimneys and bad karaoke

My response:

1. Less traffic congestion, higher average speeds, lower trip times between things

2. The "things" are all car-friendly with plentiful parking and many drive-throughs, many authentically-copied examples of canned architecture, interesting places are promoted by the local municipality or economic development council; interesting places might include your lawn, the community's private park and jogging trails, your extra bedroom which you've converted to a home theater with all your extra disposable income, or the Wal-Mart that acts as a gathering place and as a venue for exercise.

3. The same amount of history (x years in urban areas = y years in suburban areas).

4. Old (obsolete) uninspired cookie-cutter architecture

5. "cool kids" i.e. snotty DINKs, ironic youth, clannish closed-minded gay people, crappy bars full of made-up sexualized gold diggers that will later insist on moving to the suburbs to raise their kids among white people while they play out the role of the Stepford Wife

In all seriousness, you can find ugliness in just about any collection of humanity. You can also find very good reasons that any particular collection of humanity happened to have collected there and (general) redemption on account of it. For instance, my personal preference is to be in areas that are typically considered "urban", but if I had a good job in a suburban area I would move there. Same for a small town in a rural area. I don't let the subcultural aspects sway me. Most people are decent enough if you just give them a chance, no matter where they call home.

[kylejack]

1. Less traffic congestion, higher average speeds, lower trip times between things

Disagree, things like groceries, hardware stores, drug store, these things are all closer to me inside the Loop.

2. The "things" are all car-friendly with plentiful parking

Gee, huge parking lots, that is so cool.

and many drive-throughs

We're not even speaking the same language.

the community's private park and jogging trails

This I will grant.

In all seriousness, you can find ugliness in just about any collection of humanity. You can also find very good reasons that any particular collection of humanity happened to have collected there and (general) redemption on account of it. For instance, my personal preference is to be in areas that are typically considered "urban", but if I had a good job in a suburban area I would move there. Same for a small town in a rural area. I don't let the subcultural aspects sway me. Most people are decent enough if you just give them a chance, no matter where they call home.

I don't fault people for liking miles of parking space. Some people are into that kind of thing. I was just explaining why the suburbs are not for me.

[Pumapayam]

Reasons to hate the suburbs:

1. Longer distances between things

2. The "things" are all cookie-cutter strip centers with national chains, few authentic interesting places

3. Less history

4. New uninspired cookie-cutter architecture

5. "family people" i.e. PTA Nazis, ragin' soccer dads, crappy bars full of old boring men who smoke like chimneys and bad karaoke

I mean uh, what's to LIKE about the suburbs. Lower crime? Yeah, okay. Eyeroll.

These type of threads are like crack for me, but I must resist and stay away.

[TAK]

this thread explains my current predicament in total... well, almost...

1. i live OTL but inside the beltway (ITB?)

2. i have 2 little kids (2 and 5 mos)

3. i have a small 3 br home and use 1 br for a required home office.

4. i want to move to a bigger home (room for beds AND toys would be nice) on a bigger lot.

5. the 'suburbs' are FAR. we've looked at houses just about everywhere - south, southwest, northwest, northeast, west and we've come to the conclusion that any burb we live in would be far from everything we do...

we DO go to the children's museum regulary, including during the week. our oldest goes to a day school 2x a week in West U - one that we like and he likes, and if we move any further out, that ends. all of our relatives and friends are spread the hell out over the burbs. if we move to one burb, anyone on the other side is pretty much done for (her parents are in galveston county, my parents and grandmother are in north houston).

i'd actually like to stay near where I am now (Inwood Forest area) but the schools and crime are unacceptable. We can afford to move in closer, but refuse to spend the money just to live close (that would, indeed, be selfish). another suburb is the ONLY real answer, but it needs to still be close (meaning an older suburb).

So, where are the older, closer suburbs with good schools and housing that isn't overpriced?

this 'issue' is actually working in my favor for now. my youngest is 2.5 years away from school... I plan to have this house paid off by then, which would give me even more options (financially) and possibly more of a reason to be close to this area (leasing this home).

i don't hate the burbs... i hate the distance they are from everything we currently do, and i haven't figured out how we'd shift our lives and not drive 200 miles on a saturday.

[memebag]

Mai's and Hollywood suck. Try Hoang Son (inside Kim Hung Market on St. Emanuel), Thiem Hung (on Leeland, killer beef stew), or Cali Sandwich.

Have you ever been to Pho Hoang, or are you just assuming it isn't as good as the places you listed?

[ldogg]

wow.. this thread is awful...

people claim there are better restaurants in the city and one example is given in Clear Lake and that becomes a rallying point?? jeez.... maybe the best is outside of the city, but the lure IN the city is the variety and number of excellent options...

people claiming diversity issues and illegal aliens in schools etc... really people?? are you all that juvenile?

so here is something to chew on in the suburb/not suburb debate... I submit that suburbs are a combination of design/planning, architectural similarities, and density...

I live in Timbergrove (oh noes, snotty inner looper!!) which is quite clearly a former suburb of Houston.... note former... this was a mass planned subdivision with 14 sections built from the mid 50s-mid 60s... over time however the population density around the subdivision has increased and development surrounding it has changed... the 610 loop didn't exist when the neigborhood was built... but growth and density in the area swallowed it up and it is no longer a suburb... the same can be said for Meyerland, Westbury, Oak Forest, Garden Oaks, Inwood Forest, Memorial...etc...etc....

I grew up in Inwood Forest throughout the 80s and it was clearly a suburb... back then you had large gaps in development up 290 and out 249... I remember the construction of the Beltway... much like 610, the Beltway sectioned off the city and even more development occurred inside it... more density, more redevelopment... it doesn't take a genius to drive down the Beltway even today and note how much more dense the city seems inside of it than out... that to me says more about what is a suburb than any house construction style... density, infill, redevelopment are the keys to knowing whether you're in a suburb or not...

allow me to take offense at the school issue that is constantly brought up... a quality education can be obtained whether in HISD or CFISD or SBISD etc..etc... it is up to the parents to stress education and work with their kids... a kid can go to Waltrip, Lamar, Bellaire, Jones, wherever and still get into Rice, UT, A&M, Yale, Duke etc...etc... clearly there may be more challenges faced in an urban setting, but it can be done.. and frankly if more parents who live in the loop would stay and keep their kids in public school then more funds would be available for those schools whereby improving the quality of the experience for all... don't be afraid of the minorities, keep your kids in the schools here and lets make them better!! one needs only to look at the work done in the Garden Oaks/Oak Forest area to see how much that elementary school has improved...

[kylejack]

Have you ever been to Pho Hoang, or are you just assuming it isn't as good as the places you listed?

Anything outside the Loop is dead to me with a few exceptions, especially something on Nasa Road One. The poster says it is good and I have no reason to doubt him. I just questioned him using Mai's as a standard. Mai's is a late-night attraction, not excellent food imo.

[kylejack]

this thread explains my current predicament in total... well, almost...

1. i live OTL but inside the beltway (ITB?)

2. i have 2 little kids (2 and 5 mos)

3. i have a small 3 br home and use 1 br for a required home office.

4. i want to move to a bigger home (room for beds AND toys would be nice) on a bigger lot.

5. the 'suburbs' are FAR. we've looked at houses just about everywhere - south, southwest, northwest, northeast, west and we've come to the conclusion that any burb we live in would be far from everything we do...

we DO go to the children's museum regulary, including during the week. our oldest goes to a day school 2x a week in West U - one that we like and he likes, and if we move any further out, that ends. all of our relatives and friends are spread the hell out over the burbs. if we move to one burb, anyone on the other side is pretty much done for (her parents are in galveston county, my parents and grandmother are in north houston).

i'd actually like to stay near where I am now (Inwood Forest area) but the schools and crime are unacceptable. We can afford to move in closer, but refuse to spend the money just to live close (that would, indeed, be selfish). another suburb is the ONLY real answer, but it needs to still be close (meaning an older suburb).

So, where are the older, closer suburbs with good schools and housing that isn't overpriced?

this 'issue' is actually working in my favor for now. my youngest is 2.5 years away from school... I plan to have this house paid off by then, which would give me even more options (financially) and possibly more of a reason to be close to this area (leasing this home).

i don't hate the burbs... i hate the distance they are from everything we currently do, and i haven't figured out how we'd shift our lives and not drive 200 miles on a saturday.

I've actually seen some surprisingly affordable older homes and etc. for sale or rent in Bellaire, especially the west side of it around Newcastle @ Bissonnet. Beware, though, these affordable places are slowly being driven under for more expensive townhomes.

[memebag]

Anything outside the Loop is dead to me with a few exceptions, especially something on Nasa Road One.

So all of the best stuff is inside the loop, and you've come to that conclusion by rejecting any evidence to the contrary. Enjoy your tiny world.