Texas pledge of allegiance

[Gary]

Some random quotes from religious founding fathers doesn't convince me that it was their intention to inject religion into the classrooms of public school. By the way you forgot to quote Jefferson.

Random quotes from religious founding fathers? This truth (what was intended for the US) is repleat throughout the vast majority of our founders. These are men that started this country, and were among the most respected leaders of all time. How can you just brush that off that easily? it's like laughing in the face of the truth.

[moni]

I agree with Jax. The phrase "under God", was added to the U.S. Pledge in 1956 and my generation never included it. It was largely the influence of the Catholic Church in America that insisted this be added and my tongue still trips over it. Pledges have absolutely no meaning as far as I am concerned. I believe that showing your allegiance to a country by service is the best way to let others know how you feel. Remember, we also have freedom from religion.

[Captain Impossible]

It's widely accepted that Benjamin Franklin actually was not a Christian. The bulk of evidence suggests that he was, in fact, a deist. The vast majority of the founding fathers were deist Freemasons. The nation itself was not founded on Christ, but was founded upon ideas that were produced in the so-called Age of Reason.

As far as the issue of the separation of Church and state, I am certainly a supporter of it. The Church was made for Christ, not to be used as a tool to garner more votes or anything else. In light of the selfishness of man, if the Church were heavily involved with the state, she would be taken advantage of in the worst way.

Incidentally, I believe that if there were ever a truly Christian nation, that is, a nation founded entirely on the person of Jesus Christ, and one that was in total obedience to God, then it would look nothing like any nation currently in existence. It certainly would not look like the United States.

[Gary]

P.S. I disagree that life was better before prayer was taken out of schools. What about slavery?

Certainly slavery was a bad thing but, when you have prayer in schools you have problems with chewing gum, passing notes, fist fights, and the occasional pregnancy.

Without prayer you have Mass school killings, guns in school, cops stationed at school, major problems with pregnancy etc, etc.

Just because a country is founded on the principals of the Christian faith, does not mean that they don't make mistakes. Remember that Abraham Lincoln (who happened to be a Christian) rectified this mistake.

[Jax]

I'm not brushing it off, I'm just saying these aren't quotes from legal documents, these are personal quotes from some extremely intelligent people who purposely left religion out of our government. Sure one of them saw a connection between the 4th of July an Jesus, that's fine, but it doesn't convince me that we need religion in our public schools.

The only quote I really liked was this one,

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”

I agree, the Ten Commandments are indeed a great basis for our civil and municipal codes, but let's leave the religious part out of our schools.

I am sorry we disagree on this but I am not going to discuss it further. There's no way you are going to convince me and there is no way I am going to convince you, so this is just pointless.

[Gary]

It's widely accepted that Benjamin Franklin actually was not a Christian. The bulk of evidence suggests that he was, in fact, a deist. The vast majority of the founding fathers were deist Freemasons. The nation itself was not founded on Christ, but was founded upon ideas that were produced in the so-called Age of Reason.

Just because it's widely accepted does not make it the truth. I have already provided you with quotes from Franklin that call your statement onto the carpet.

I'm not brushing it off, I'm just saying these aren't quotes from legal documents, these are personal quotes from some extremely intelligent people who purposely left religion out of our government. Sure one of them saw a connection between the 4th of July an Jesus, that's fine, but it doesn't convince me that we need religion in our public schools.

See that's the thing Jax, they didn't leave Christianity out our government. It's plastered all over the place. I'll stop trying to convince you, but one day you might consider looking into some statistics regarding what has happened to this country since prayer was taken out of schools.

[Jax]

Without prayer you have Mass school killings, guns in school, cops stationed at school, major problems with pregnancy etc, etc.

huh?

[sevfiv]

wow - i just caught up on the thread.

the issue at hand here is public schools. not only the recitation of the pledge, but this "new" pledge that includes religion.

it has been interesting reading responses, though. i suppose i came from a strange upbringing (although growing up i never thought so).

i was raised in a household without religion. not anti, not anything. just the absence of it. i have read about different religions, experienced different types of services with friends, but never grew up with something like most people apparently have. i did go to a catholic school for a couple years - it was a very interesting (and sometimes scary!) experience.

i am grateful, though. it is interesting to read about viewpoints without being fully indoctrinated in a religion, or growing up with religious rituals and so forth.

i may be quite naive about religion as a household thing, but i also am glad i wasn't forced like so many other people i know (as a child, for example - being told to practice religion because their parents said so, and sometimes being very ignorant about it anyhow). i guess if that's all one knows and no one bothers to really examine things, but it also provides some great sense of comfort, then that's great.

i do find it extremely offensive when folks suggest that the decline of morals and anything good in our society is due to those who are not worshippers of whichever god he or she may be referring to. i grew up in a household where i was taught responsibility, respect, and morals without the presence of religion.

so back to the public school thing...growing up a-religious and attending public schools the majority of the time, i did find it odd reciting the pledge of allegiance and having "god" in it - more specifically, "one nation under god." and also having "in god we trust" on money.

[RedScare]

i do find it extremely offensive when folks suggest that the decline of morals and anything good in our society is due to those who are not worshippers of whichever god he or she may be referring to. i grew up in a household where i was taught responsibility, respect, and morals without the presence of religion.

You mean like the fact that teen pregnancy, drug use and murder is all DOWN from those wonder years of school prayer?

Yeah, Gary, I'm talking to you. Look it up. I know it is a favorite thing to bring up, but it doesn't jibe with the facts.

[Jax]

I think this thread is getting out of control. Maybe we should just close it here or something...

[webdude]

It should be one state under gods since we have so many.

[musicman]

...indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[Jax]

Maybe my previous comment on closing this thread wasn't in the spirit of liberty and democracy , but I smell a flame war... let's just try to keep it civil. I'm not saying it's already out of control but I can see it coming...

[Native Montrosian]

I went to Poe Elementary from 1966-69 and private/parochial school through high school. I recited the Pledge of Allegiance through 6th grade and cannot recall any discussion about what it meant, only that we were supposed to face the flag with right hand over the heart and say it. The meaning behind it was told to me by my WWII veteran father.

Personally, a lot of us never paid any attention to the "one nation under God" part because we were too busy listening for which boy behind us would say "One naked underwear" - high comedy in elementary school days. Haven't gone insane with a gun in public to date.

[Gary]

You mean like the fact that teen pregnancy, drug use and murder is all DOWN from those wonder years of school prayer?

Yeah, Gary, I'm talking to you. Look it up. I know it is a favorite thing to bring up, but it doesn't jibe with the facts.

What years are you speaking of Red? Certainly your not arguing that teen violence is down now versus 35 years ago as that would be rediculous

Edit: I've looked it up and can't find anything to substantiate your argument.

[KinkaidAlum]

Funny, I thought prayer was how must teens got pregnant.

BOY: "Dear God, please let me get laid."

GIRL: "Dear God, please don't let me get knocked up so my parents will never find out."

The only way prayer would help in cases of teen pregancy would be if we had a national prayer that said,

"One Nation, Under God, With Condoms and Safe Sex For All."

[jmancuso]

Certainly slavery was a bad thing but, when you have prayer in schools you have problems with chewing gum, passing notes, fist fights, and the occasional pregnancy.

Without prayer you have Mass school killings, guns in school, cops stationed at school, major problems with pregnancy etc, etc.

wow, just wow.

@ jax: as long everyone stays civil and don't start attacking one another, this thread is fine.

[Orikal]

What years are you speaking of Red? Certainly your not arguing that teen violence is down now versus 35 years ago as that would be rediculous.

Please provide evidence that directly correlates lack of prayer in schools with an increase in violence.

The simple assertion that we are a more violent society than X number of years ago does not constitute proof.

[Gary]

Please provide evidence that directly correlates lack of prayer in schools with an increase in violence.

The simple assertion that we are a more violent society than X number of years ago does not constitute proof.

You've got to be kidding? Either that or I'm living on Mars.

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/teens.htm

wow, just wow.

@ jax: as long everyone stays civil and don't start attacking one another, this thread is fine.

Why are "wow"ing me? Was there anything I said that was offensive or untrue? Of course your probably refering to the slavery issue, which if so, your taking out of context as it wasn't the issue.

[Orikal]

You've got to be kidding? Either that or I'm living on Mars.

Again, all you provided are statistics citing we are more violent than X number of years ago. On this most would agree.

Again, you fail to show this is due to the fact prayer was removed from public schools.

What about the question is difficult to understand?

[musicman]

Morals sure have changed.

[millennica]

Again, all you provided are statistics citing we are more violent than X number of years ago. On this most would agree.

Again, you fail to show this is due to the fact prayer was removed from public schools.

What about the question is difficult to understand?

Orikal's comment is on the money. One of the principles taught in statistics classes is that correlation does not imply causation. Just because two variables are correlated or two events occur together does not mean there is a cause-and-effect relationship between them.

[jmancuso]

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/teens.htm

Why are "wow"ing me? Was there anything I said that was offensive or untrue? Of course your probably refering to the slavery issue, which if so, your taking out of context as it wasn't the issue.

wow...as in you are that simplistic in thinking that praying in class every morning is the key to improving kids' quality of life. never mind the breakdown of the family structure, the prevalence of drugs, lack of parental oversight, poverty and other socio economic factors. you bring up the good old days. my parents went to school (in NY) in the days of school prayer and they behaved in class becuase if they didn't, they would be severly punished by the teacher (switches, rulers, paddles, public humiliation) and then got more of it when they got home.

why is it that teen pregnancy and school shootings are more of a problem in bible belt states?

[Gary]

Again, all you provided are statistics citing we are more violent than X number of years ago. On this most would agree.

Again, you fail to show this is due to the fact prayer was removed from public schools.

What about the question is difficult to understand?

There is nothing about the question that's to "difficult to understand', and I'm amazed that you and others are arguing the absolute obvious in this regards. How can you actually argue where our schools are now regarding school vilolence etc, and where they were 35, 45 and 50 years ago?

Just because I can't provide a stat that is technically about school prayer and it's effects, or lack thereof, the stats i provided show an obvious trend. If it's not school prayer then maybe you could enlighten me. If it's not, it's one hell of a coincidence.

[RedScare]

What years are you speaking of Red? Certainly your not arguing that teen violence is down now versus 35 years ago as that would be rediculous

Edit: I've looked it up and can't find anything to substantiate your argument.

The converse of that would be that you also could not find anything to SUPPORT your argument. Frankly, since you threw the statement out there, it is your burden of proof.

I'd be interested in something simple...such as your link that a secular prayer causes mass killings to drop.

[jmancuso]

btw, don't kids have a moment of silence in the morning? if they are religious, they will use that time to pray to themselves and the kids aren't religious will not. essentially there is no difference between what we have now and the days of sanctioned school prayer...only now non-religious and non-christian kids aren't forced to pray to a god they do not believe in.

[Gary]

wow...as in you are that simplistic in thinking that praying in class every morning is the key to improving kids' quality of life. never mind the breakdown of the family structure, the prevalence of drugs, lack of parental oversight, poverty and other socio economic factors. you bring up the good old days. my parents went to school (in NY) in the days of school prayer and they behaved in class becuase if they didn't, they would be severly punished by the teacher (switches, rulers, paddles, public humiliation) and then got more of it when they got home.

Listen, I'm addressing school prayer and it's effect on the phsyche of children. I am not stating that it's the end all beat all. Certainly the family structure is a joke, and it plays a HUGE roll in problems with kids, but that goes right back to the crux of the matter, and that is that prayer has provided a healthy society here in the states. And please don't come back with the whole slavery issue as it's to involved.

As far as getting a good swat from the teacher... I'm all for it. I grew up playing sports in school my whole life including some college baseball, and if any player got out of line they either ran belly's, or got a couple of good pops from the coach. I can ssure you that looking back I respected those guys a great deal.

[jmancuso]

...that goes right back to the crux of the matter, and that is that prayer has provided a healthy society here in the states.

but only for those who are inclined to believe in it in the first place.

btw, i never brought up slavery.

[Gary]

The converse of that would be that you also could not find anything to SUPPORT your argument. Frankly, since you threw the statement out there, it is your burden of proof.

I'd be interested in something simple...such as your link that a secular prayer causes mass killings to drop.

You know, in all honesty I can't provide you with any stat that techinically takes into effect school prayer, however I can use my brain and look at what has happened in my lifetime. Can I prove on paper it's because of school prayer, no. But again, I either see it as one big coincidence, or I see it as having some merit.

No one can logically argue that our kids haven't changed for the worst over the last 4 decades. It's painfully obvious. I believe the gradual removal of God from public life has been done to our detriment, and is not only effecting our children, but is effecting our entire society. All you have to do its watch TV to see what I'm talking about.

I'm going round and round here so I'm going to drop off of this subject for a while.

[RedScare]

You know, in all honesty I can't provide you with any stat that techinically takes into effect school prayer, however I can use my brain and look at what has happened in my lifetime. Can I prove on paper it's because of school prayer, no. But again, I either see it as one big coincidence, or I see it as having some merit.

No one can logically argue that our kids haven't changed for the worst over the last 4 decades. It's painfully obvious. I believe the gradual removal of God from public life has been done to our detriment, and is not only effecting our children, but is effecting our entire society. All you have to do its watch TV to see what I'm talking about.

I'm going round and round here so I'm going to drop off of this subject for a while.

Since 1993 the victimization rates for young teens have declined to levels similar to those experienced from 1976-85.

Quote from your source.

Offending rates for children under age 14 increased in the late 1980's and early 1990's, but fell to the lowest level recorded in 2003.

Another quote from your source.

Offending rates of teens (14-17 years old) increased rapidly after 1985, surpassing the rates of 25-34 year-olds. After 2000, the offending rates for young teens reached the lowest levels recorded and fell below those for 25-34 year-olds.

Still another quote from your source.

Why do these rates keep falling, some to the lowest levels recorded, if there is no prayer in schools?