Lightrail/BRT Discussion

[ricco67]

Phase two won't begin until phase one is well under way.

We are not able to continue with phase two until it's put up for a vote, thanks to Mr. Delay. otherwise, I think we would have been far along by now.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Houston, do we have liftoff? Those renderings are awesome!

Metro

Those renderings are great. Reminds me of the new train staion in Berlin, Germany which is a wonderfully facility

[Zephyr]

I've heard from sources in the know that METRO is in the process of ****ing up the BRT routes with their preliminary designs.

They seem to be cheaping out on everything. Very few takings for the ROW, so not much room for adequate sidewalks, which is how people would get to the stops. Very infrequent stops with a lack of parallel bus service, so it can be difficult to get to BRT platforms even if your end destination is along the lines...on top of the inadequate sidewalks, which make it even more difficult. My source concluded with a great deal of disappointment that METRO does not appear to be committed to creating the pedestrian infrastructure that is necessary to be supportive of transit on a fixed guideway.

Preliminary plans also lack grade-seperations at any major thoroughfares or even at railroad crossings. It is bad enough that the BRT will be subject to delays from freight trains, but since LRT tracks are being laid underneath the BRT lanes, it will be our future LRT routes that get delayed by freight trains too.

They appear to be undermining their own efforts even though matching federal funding is so much more likely this time around. I have long been concerned that the inadequate design standards of the Red Line would be replicated on future routes...but I was wrong. They've evidently gotten worse.

I'm a Native Houstonian who was exiled to Dallas about 30 years ago. There are a lot of things I miss about Houston, but one advantage Dallas does have is public transportation. The light rail system here is fast and reliable, not to mention well-planned. I never understood the problems with METRO from the beginning but it seems that the organization is always shooting itself in the foot.\

The Dallas Area Rapid Transit authority (DART) mapped the most heavily travelled routes into downtown, and prioritized. The existing lines run north to Plano and Garland, and south to near Ennis and Lancaster. Next will be Carollton and Seagoville, and a possible east-west line from Plano to DFW Airport. I've read that METRO currently plans a line along Westpark and on that runs east along Harrisburg. It seems they could extend the current line out to Missouri City, and go ahead with Westpark. As I recall, Westpark was primarily industrial and business development, so I don't know what the opposition is about.

Eventually, it'll get done. I just hope it gets done before it becomes obsolete.

[T 2 THA C]

Dose any one know the progected ridership of the up coming LRT/GRT expansion? I curious because they're adding about 25 miles and 8 miles of commuter rail, so that would be about 40 miles!

[musicman]

Dose any one know the progected ridership of the up coming LRT/GRT expansion? I curious because they're adding about 25 miles and 8 miles of commuter rail, so that would be about 40 miles!

There are a lot of factors that are still TBD. which buses are they eliminating, etc.

[Pumapayam]

New designs for the Metro Station revealed today and tomorrow.

[Guest danax]

Kate Petley proposes floral garlands for the windscreens of the East corridor and stylized magnolias for Uptown stations. "I explore subtleties of atmosphere, exaggerating the type of light that animates everything it touches," Petley said.

Cool.

Then the guy artist comes up with a maritime theme; anchors, masts......sort of a Metro man-space. I like the creativity here.

[T 2 THA C]

Yea tey look nice I like this approach

[ricco67]

Kate Petley proposes floral garlands for the windscreens of the East corridor and stylized magnolias for Uptown stations. "I explore subtleties of atmosphere, exaggerating the type of light that animates everything it touches," Petley said.

Cool.

Then the guy artist comes up with a maritime theme; anchors, masts......sort of a Metro man-space. I like the creativity here.

I'm wondering about the designs as well, what will happen when one of the lines gets CLOSER to the ship channel? While some stops will have obvious design choices (UH for example), some might be more interesting if they refer to some of the more historical aspects of some of the areas the stops will be located at.

[lockmat]

METRO Solutions has updated its powerpoint presentation on current and future plans. It's much better than what they've provided in the past. It's more visually appealing, more clear and gives good and wanted information.

http://metrosolutions.org/go/doc/1068/156816/

It has pictures of BRT's, information and pictures of future Signature bus services and this cool little simulation of how it'll work: https://www.piersystem.com/clients/1068/77225.mpeg

[TheNiche]

METRO Solutions has updated its powerpoint presentation on current and future plans. It's much better than what they've provided in the past. It's more visually appealing, more clear and gives good and wanted information.

http://metrosolutions.org/go/doc/1068/156816/

It has pictures of BRT's, information and pictures of future Signature bus services and this cool little simulation of how it'll work: https://www.piersystem.com/clients/1068/77225.mpeg

On slide 24 of the Metro Solutions presentation, it mentions that METRO is only applying for federal funding for the North and Southeast corridors. Funny, one of the very few good arguments for METRO doing fixed-guideway rapid transit is that the Feds pick up half the tab. This was also one of the matters supposedly holding up the University Line, but if there is no application for Federal funding, then all this controversy over Culberson is meaningless.

WTF?

[lockmat]

On slide 24 of the Metro Solutions presentation, it mentions that METRO is only applying for federal funding for the North and Southeast corridors. Funny, one of the very few good arguments for METRO doing fixed-guideway rapid transit is that the Feds pick up half the tab. This was also one of the matters supposedly holding up the University Line, but if there is no application for Federal funding, then all this controversy over Culberson is meaningless.

WTF?

Why wouldn't they apply for federal funding? Seems like a can't-miss situation for a local government? But I guess since they're not, there must be some kind of disadvantage or maybe a conflict?

[Houston19514]

On slide 24 of the Metro Solutions presentation, it mentions that METRO is only applying for federal funding for the North and Southeast corridors. Funny, one of the very few good arguments for METRO doing fixed-guideway rapid transit is that the Feds pick up half the tab. This was also one of the matters supposedly holding up the University Line, but if there is no application for Federal funding, then all this controversy over Culberson is meaningless.

WTF?

I believe Metro worked out a deal with the Feds allowing them to fully fund certain lines themselves and apply those expenditures as the matching money for the other lines. The Feds also agreed to consider the Red Line expenditures as part of Metro's match. So, basically, Metro is paying for 2 lines and the Fed money will pay the full tab for the other 2 lines, or something like that. I forget now what the advantage of that arrangement was supposed to be...

[TheNiche]

I believe Metro worked out a deal with the Feds allowing them to fully fund certain lines themselves and apply those expenditures as the matching money for the other lines. The Feds also agreed to consider the Red Line expenditures as part of Metro's match. So, basically, Metro is paying for 2 lines and the Fed money will pay the full tab for the other 2 lines, or something like that. I forget now what the advantage of that arrangement was supposed to be...

Interesting. I would imagine that such an arrangement allows for them to utilize the existing high-ridership Red Line and other lines for which EIS studies will conclude that there is high ridership to justify Federal funding for those routes, while METRO picks up the tab for more questionable routes.

This could make a lot of sense, since the Southeast and North BRT routes will serve extraordinarily high ridership areas on account of there being so many extraordinarily poor people nearby, whereas the East End is slighly less poor and perhaps not as well configured to provide ridership and the University Line will be so much more expensive that the cost per passenger figures might be difficult to justify.

[Houston19514]

Interesting. I would imagine that such an arrangement allows for them to utilize the existing high-ridership Red Line and other lines for which EIS studies will conclude that there is high ridership to justify Federal funding for those routes, while METRO picks up the tab for more questionable routes.

This could make a lot of sense, since the Southeast and North BRT routes will serve extraordinarily high ridership areas on account of there being so many extraordinarily poor people nearby, whereas the East End is slighly less poor and perhaps not as well configured to provide ridership and the University Line will be so much more expensive that the cost per passenger figures might be difficult to justify.

You misread the information in the Metro powerpoint presentation. They are applying for federal funding for three lines: North, Southeast, and University. (On slide 23 it says that they have submitted the draft EIS for the University Line. Then on Slide 24 it says they have concluded the EIS process for the North and Southeast lines. Then it proceeds to say that (the other corridors do not require Federal environmental process as Metro is not applying for federal funding for them.) They are applying for federal funding for all corridors on which they are conducting the Federal EIS process: University, North, and Southeast.

[pm91]

i dont know if this pic has been posted or not but here it is and it might help. i think they REALLY need to make the lightrail go all the way to katy. the west side needs it and some reason they havent built it yet...

[lockmat]

Some proposed lines that go really far out like to Spring, Katy, Tomball and Humble show as LRT while the 290 and 59 South line is proposed to be Commuter. I wonder how they decided which would be better suited for LRT or CRT?

[TheNiche]

i dont know if this pic has been posted or not but here it is and it might help. i think they REALLY need to make the lightrail go all the way to katy. the west side needs it and some reason they havent built it yet...

That's an old map. It's since been updated.

[T 2 THA C]

I was talking about METRO atleast trying to improve, not just because its BRT/LRT. But I suppose good intentions only work in sentimental hopes, and not reality.

Agreed and improvement is welcome by me!!

I'd rather that they just put off BRT along Harrisburg entirely (and everything else regarding rapid transit) for a few more years, but if it has to go in, then yes, they should absolutely spend the money to at least make it effective.

We will just have to adapt once again, like drivers had to driving next to the RED line. I do not think the diamond lanes will be that bad, but not crossing over the up track is crazy. I work in the South East and I think that getting a Rapid line is better than not getting one at all.

Once said and done will this SE line run to the intermodal? And if so would a transfer there be faster than walking from the Se line to the RED line?

I would like to think that after implementing these new lines that if the pedestrian connections and grade separations are hurting the ridership that metro would improve the pedestrian connections and add grade separations at major thoroughfares.

[TheNiche]

Agreed and improvement is welcome by me!!

We will just have to adapt once again, like drivers had to driving next to the RED line. I do not think the diamond lanes will be that bad, but not crossing over the up track is crazy. I work in the South East and I think that getting a Rapid line is better than not getting one at all.

Once said and done will this SE line run to the intermodal? And if so would a transfer there be faster than walking from the Se line to the RED line?

I would like to think that after implementing these new lines that if the pedestrian connections and grade separations are hurting the ridership that metro would improve the pedestrian connections and add grade separations at major thoroughfares.

As it is, the southeast line will merge with the Harrisburg line and enter downtown via Capitol Street, if I'm not mistaken. That's where it will cross the Red Line, terminating in the west part of downtown. The intermodal station is not within walking distance of the southeast line.

I'd like to think that METRO would do it right the first time, rather than build it two times over in short order. ...but my faith in them is shaken. They are fundamentally a political unit, and they function to support bureaucracies more than people. Any attempt at physically fixing a problem would be an admission of guilt, and they would know better than to do something like that. So I expect them to screw it up from the beginning and not fix it at least until they implement LRT, perhaps not even then.

[T 2 THA C]

As it is, the southeast line will merge with the Harrisburg line and enter downtown via Capitol Street, if I'm not mistaken. That's where it will cross the Red Line, terminating in the west part of downtown. The intermodal station is not within walking distance of the southeast line.

I'd like to think that METRO would do it right the first time, rather than build it two times over in short order. ...but my faith in them is shaken. They are fundamentally a political unit, and they function to support bureaucracies more than people. Any attempt at physically fixing a problem would be an admission of guilt, and they would know better than to do something like that. So I expect them to screw it up from the beginning and not fix it at least until they implement LRT, perhaps not even then.

Me also, I forgot the intermodal is on the other side of I-10, hence the transfer to main and or walk to the intermodal being inconvenient. I hope that when they do upgrade to LRT they will improve, pedestrian access, and aesthetics, but I guess we should not hold our breaths!

It would also be nice to see the lines spur more mixed used development over time along the lines that would give riders more reasons to ride the LRT/BRT.

[musicman]

It would also be nice to see the lines spur more mixed used development over time along the lines that would give riders more reasons to ride the LRT/BRT.

the eastside line will have 5 stops vs. the current bus line which has many stops. it will be interesting to see how that affects ridership as there are no close alternatives.

[RedScare]

As it is, the southeast line will merge with the Harrisburg line and enter downtown via Capitol Street, if I'm not mistaken. That's where it will cross the Red Line, terminating in the west part of downtown. The intermodal station is not within walking distance of the southeast line.

I'd like to think that METRO would do it right the first time, rather than build it two times over in short order. ...but my faith in them is shaken. They are fundamentally a political unit, and they function to support bureaucracies more than people. Any attempt at physically fixing a problem would be an admission of guilt, and they would know better than to do something like that. So I expect them to screw it up from the beginning and not fix it at least until they implement LRT, perhaps not even then.

I am sure METRO is concerned that your confidence is shaken. However, I wonder why your confidence is not shaken in HCTRA, since they are the architects of the biggest blunder recently. METRO considered a SE line allignment to the Intermodal. However, if you look at where people will actually be going, a Capital Street allignment appears to serve more destinations, such as MMP, GRB, park, Houston Center, Main Street, Federal Courthouse, library, City Hall and Bayou Place. In contrast, an Intermodal allignment would serve the Intermodal...

As for your faith being shaken...I am sure they are concerned. As for your statement that they function to support bureaucracies instead of people, frankly, they seem far more responsive to the people than another transportation agency in the news lately, HCTRA, one that you supported in another thread. Blanket, unsupported statements like these prove nothing...other than your preconceived biases. To quote you...sources please.

[TheNiche]

I am sure METRO is concerned that your confidence is shaken. However, I wonder why your confidence is not shaken in HCTRA, since they are the architects of the biggest blunder recently. METRO considered a SE line allignment to the Intermodal. However, if you look at where people will actually be going, a Capital Street allignment appears to serve more destinations, such as MMP, GRB, park, Houston Center, Main Street, Federal Courthouse, library, City Hall and Bayou Place. In contrast, an Intermodal allignment would serve the Intermodal...

Perhaps I wasn't clear, or perhaps you just didn't read what I was replying to, but I absolutely agree that a Capitol Street route is preferable. What I don't like is a grade-level crossing with a railroad track, a dearth of major streetscape/pedestrian improvements, and a fewer number of stops, all with no parallel shuttle service. Bad idea.

As for your statement that they function to support bureaucracies instead of people, frankly, they seem far more responsive to the people than another transportation agency in the news lately, HCTRA, one that you supported in another thread.

What on earth are you talking about? HCTRA was responsive--otherwise they wouldn't have renigged on their vote to double tolls on Westpark. And I did criticize them on that thread not only for handling the situation poorly, but for not having in place a way to slowly and incrementally raise the toll in a way that people can anticipate and adapt to. Fault for this fiasco rests squarely on their shoulders.

sources please.

I am my own source. You only have to ride their vehicles--I have to put up with their repeated acts of incompetence professionally. ...and you're not getting a story out of me. If my word is not good enough to convince you, and I wouldn't presume to think that it is, well that's A-OK by me. See if I care. [shrug]

[RedScare]

I do ride their vehicles, both rubber wheeled and rail, and I find them to be clean, and largely on time. Since that is all I have to base it on, I find your unsupported opinion meaningless.

As for your secret profession, so what? You want SOOO badly for readers of this forum to believe that "the youngest boy in the room" is a major player on the Houston political scene. Maybe you are. Maybe you will be. But your repeated "just trust me" statements make you sound like an anonymous internet poster who wants to sound important. Hate to be the one to break that news to you, but that is the nature of the beast. You have never provided a verifiable scoop, so your posts become meaningless, unless we want to know what an economics textbook reads like.

As for "putting up with their repeated acts of incompetence", welcome to government work. If you cannot learn how to work that to your advantage, perhaps you are in the wrong line of work...whatever you claim that to be. I have been either in or opposed to the government for 20 years. It can be extremely frustrating to say the least. But, I have learned that government incompetence can be my best friend. You should learn the same.

[TheNiche]

I do ride their vehicles, both rubber wheeled and rail, and I find them to be clean, and largely on time. Since that is all I have to base it on, I find your unsupported opinion meaningless.

Okie dokie. [shrug]

As for your secret profession, so what? You want SOOO badly for readers of this forum to believe that "the youngest boy in the room" is a major player on the Houston political scene. Maybe you are. Maybe you will be. But your repeated "just trust me" statements make you sound like an anonymous internet poster who wants to sound important. Hate to be the one to break that news to you, but that is the nature of the beast. You have never provided a verifiable scoop, so your posts become meaningless, unless we want to know what an economics textbook reads like.

I've never said that I'm a major player in any scene, nor led anyone to believe that. I don't provide verifiable scoops insomuch as strong-worded hints because as much as I post on here, it wouldn't be difficult for someone that matters to figure it out and for the whole issue to come around and bit me in the ass. If you think its all meaningless and that I sound like an economics textbook, feel free to put me on your ignore list. I don't mean to be a pest, if that's how you see me...but you don't have to see me. Very simple.

As for "putting up with their repeated acts of incompetence", welcome to government work. If you cannot learn how to work that to your advantage, perhaps you are in the wrong line of work...whatever you claim that to be. I have been either in or opposed to the government for 20 years. It can be extremely frustrating to say the least. But, I have learned that government incompetence can be my best friend. You should learn the same.

It has been my friend off and on for a couple years, but it's a love-hate relationship. I could stand do without it.

[IHB2]

the relative competence of both HCTRA and METRO, and the County Commissioners' toll rate bs, all come together in only one place in the county - the east end of the Westpark Tollway and the proposed intersection of the WT, Uptown, and University lines. and all only a few hundred feet from the service roads of the 610/59/HOV spaghetti bowl.

I've been Cassandra on this deal since summer 2005, but I'm over it. now I'm just gonna sit back and watch the rail and concrete cluster**** come to fruition. it'll make the 59 Spur rebuild fiasco look like a model of traffic management efficiency.

[MetroMogul]

Metro will never do anything right by some of you.

First, they spend too much money on rail. Then, the same critics turn around and say Metro is too cheap in building rail? What? You want things like elevated or underground lines, forgetting that those designs are not free, well, you forget until you mention how Metro wastes too much money on rail. And let's not forget that if they built underground there'd be complaints about utility disruptions. If they elevated the lines; there's be complaints about the pillars that hold up the line and how they don't do enough to protect idiotic Houston motorists from driving into them.

I'm sick of hearing the complaints about the BRT. Metro had it's hand forced to convert former LRT lines to BRT in the plans because else, they'd risk the whole project collapsing because the Feds would not fund it and we'd be back to the drawing board. In fact, this was done to appease AO folk hero Culberson and the disgraced Tom DeLay. Metro says it will put tracks under the BRT ROW for easy conversion to light rail at a future date. If they don't have any plans for conversion why the expenditure in the first place. They can just say, "Hey, we're not going to do LRT on those lines anymore." Sure, they'd piss off a few people, but hey, what else is new for Metro? They could cure Cancer, AIDS, find solutions to world poverty and hunger, and send Frank Wilson to Darfur for peace keeping efforts but local Bubbas, NIMBYs, and other uninformed would still object to how their one penny is being spent.

Goodness gracious. I guess most people believe that their one cent contributions allows Metro sit on capital that's equivalent to that of a small developed nation. As if, Metro is at the mercy of the Feds. They have to bend to their will. If you have complaints about Metro's plans and expenditures, write your local congressman and tell them to SEND MORE MONEY~!

[Trae]

DART sure has no problem.

[VelvetJ]

Metro will never do anything right by some of you.

First, they spend too much money on rail. Then, the same critics turn around and say Metro is too cheap in building rail? What? You want things like elevated or underground lines, forgetting that those designs are not free, well, you forget until you mention how Metro wastes too much money on rail. And let's not forget that if they built underground there'd be complaints about utility disruptions. If they elevated the lines; there's be complaints about the pillars that hold up the line and how they don't do enough to protect idiotic Houston motorists from driving into them.

I'm sick of hearing the complaints about the BRT. Metro had it's hand forced to convert former LRT lines to BRT in the plans because else, they'd risk the whole project collapsing because the Feds would not fund it and we'd be back to the drawing board. In fact, this was done to appease AO folk hero Culberson and the disgraced Tom DeLay. Metro says it will put tracks under the BRT ROW for easy conversion to light rail at a future date. If they don't have any plans for conversion why the expenditure in the first place. They can just say, "Hey, we're not going to do LRT on those lines anymore." Sure, they'd piss off a few people, but hey, what else is new for Metro? They could cure Cancer, AIDS, find solutions to world poverty and hunger, and send Frank Wilson to Darfur for peace keeping efforts but local Bubbas, NIMBYs, and other uninformed would still object to how their one penny is being spent.

Goodness gracious. I guess most people believe that their one cent contributions allows Metro sit on capital that's equivalent to that of a small developed nation. As if, Metro is at the mercy of the Feds. They have to bend to their will. If you have complaints about Metro's plans and expenditures, write your local congressman and tell them to SEND MORE MONEY~!

I couldn't agree more.