Why does Houston lag so much in transit development

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Many CAN ride public transporation now but choose not to due to additional time factor.

Remember we're so spread out that in general most citizens will NEVER be within walking distance from a train because we just don't have the funds to make it feasible. Therefore, a car will still be vital in our city.

Agreed.

True story---- Last year i got a silly idea in mind and decided to walk to the convenience store near my home. The store is a little over 1 mile away. It was a nice day outside and i had been locked away in the house, working up a storm, eyes focussed on 3 computer screens for 2 days straight. I thought the walk would do me a bit of good. No sweat going, but coming back.............

On the walk home i was literally stopped by 4, count them 4 of my neighbors! They all asked if i had been in an accident and if i needed a ride to the house or some assistance. When i explained that i was walking just for a bit of exercise and to enjoy the sunshine, i got some odd looks. To add to the pot, my son came along heading home from wherever he was and also stopped to ask if i was ok and if i needed a lift. Where we live is near 2 golf courses and several bike and walking trails. With so much outdoor stuff here, still, almost no one here walks! I think this is not just my area of town, but it is widespread, maybe im wrong. The mindset over here seems to be if someone is walking, there must be a wreck and one should call the police! I wonder if this is the case in other areas? If people here will not walk a mile, they sure as hell will not add minutes to thier day dealing with busses, especially since busses are something they cannot control as one would your own car I think trains would be a good thing to get people out of thier cars. i would park mine for the train

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

But Europes model is good. That's how they do it(subway in HD area), and then they have trains that take people further out if they want to.

I think people who make public transit decisions should have to go live in Europe for a year or something and see how to do it right (And yes, I know there are no sprawled out "Houstons" over there, but still, it would help their thinking)

I dont think Europes model is best at all. I think it sucks. Thier model is to punish people that have cars buy charging ridiculous amounts of taxes and such for fuel, which in turn forces people to use public transport or pay out the ass for fuel. That socialist garbage is not for me. Im in Europe frequently and will be headed there again tomorrow. The bulk of my European counterparts are envious of the freedom to drive and own cars here for relatively cheap prices.

[musicman]

Exactly, that's why I gave my proposal.

Of course, like I said, I could be oversimplifying, or just straight wrong. But would that not cut down on the wait/ride?

oversimplification is probably more accurate. Remember the current light rail system only affects a small percentage of daily commuters vs other modes of public transporation. several people who ride the bus to downtown from the west side have told me that the train has increased their travel time due to the forced transfer. IMO if you have to drive near it, it increases the time for drivers. So is there a benefit?

[lockmat]

Agreed.

True story---- Last year i got a silly idea in mind and decided to walk to the convenience store near my home. The store is a little over 1 mile away. It was a nice day outside and i had been locked away in the house, working up a storm, eyes focussed on 3 computer screens for 2 days straight. I thought the walk would do me a bit of good. No sweat going, but coming back.............

On the walk home i was literally stopped by 4, count them 4 of my neighbors! They all asked if i had been in an accident and if i needed a ride to the house or some assistance. When i explained that i was walking just for a bit of exercise and to enjoy the sunshine, i got some odd looks. To add to the pot, my son came along heading home from wherever he was and also stopped to ask if i was ok and if i needed a lift. Where we live is near 2 golf courses and several bike and walking trails. With so much outdoor stuff here, still, almost no one here walks! I think this is not just my area of town, but it is widespread, maybe im wrong. The mindset over here seems to be if someone is walking, there must be a wreck and one should call the police! I wonder if this is the case in other areas? If people here will not walk a mile, they sure as hell will not add minutes to thier day dealing with busses, especially since busses are something they cannot control as one would your own car I think trains would be a good thing to get people out of thier cars. i would park mine for the train

Inflation considered...

What if people had the option though?

What if gas prices continue to go up?

What if they factored in the costs of using public transit instead of their car?

Of course, this would only matter if the travel time got better.

But we act like all we need to do is build one line that runs along each major freeway. If we want to decrease the ride time, plans would have to go way beyond that. Either lines that branch out from stops or buses that are there waiting for them when they get off (like in Europe).

People thought you were crazy because it's not normal. If in 50 years when you're 100 yrs old and Houston has mass public transit and it's used regulary, your neighbors and son are gonna pass you right up (or hopefully be walking with you) > It will become normal

I dont think Europes model is best at all. I think it sucks. Thier model is to punish people that have cars buy charging ridiculous amounts of taxes and such for fuel, which in turn forces people to use public transport or pay out the ass for fuel. That socialist garbage is not for me. Im in Europe frequently and will be headed there again tomorrow. The bulk of my European counterparts are envious of the freedom to drive and own cars here for relatively cheap prices.

Hmm, ok. Interesting, and something to think about. But at the same time, disregarding how they purposfully slow down auto traffic, they're subways and trains are better. Where else can you travel for 6 weeks like I did and not have use a car once.

But disucssion is good, thanks for the info

oversimplification is probably more accurate. Remember the current light rail system only affects a small percentage of daily commuters vs other modes of public transporation. several people who ride the bus to downtown from the west side have told me that the train has increased their travel time due to the forced transfer. IMO if you have to drive near it, it increases the time for drivers. So is there a benefit?

my point exactly. They need to make it so you don't have to drive to the bus stop.

I'm looking long term. How it would look like when pretty much complete. I know right now it only affects a few people. But when it's complete, things like stops closer to your house will be in place.

-----

am i being the the term i've seen some people here use?...an elitest?

[musicman]

I don't mean to keep referring back to the book I'm reading (Breaking Gridlock), but it talks about how European cities purposly plan their transit and city streets etc to slow down (mph) the auto and to encourage public transit.

Sometimes people don't know what's good for them. And nobody is going to force people to completely get rid of their cars or use public transit, of course. But when the problem gets bad enough, those same car lovers will have to change their travel habits to some degree.

hmmm...if they are PLANNING to slow traffic down, that seems inefficient. more gas will be used, trips will take longer, etc. and since public transportation is slow it seems like people will spend more time traveling. for me, the goal of public transporation is to move people as quickly and as cheaply as possible. not sure our goals are compatible.

Our politicians are there for a reason, and part of it is to lead the city into the right direction. Their job is to think about these things. They have the time, unlike most people.

Go volunteer at City Hall. I think your naivety will definitely be affected. I don't think planning is in the vocabulary downtown.

[TheNiche]

Inflation considered...

In the long run, inflation doesn't matter. Transit is a long-run public investment.

What if people had the option though?

What if people had the option to take an autogyro to work? Options aren't necessarily solutions.

What if gas prices continue to go up?

What if they go down?

What if they factored in the costs of using public transit instead of their car?

Financial costs are only one component (and usually a secondary one) of private costs and benefits to different forms of transit.

Of course, this would only matter if the travel time got better.

Ding, ding, ding! Bingo. This is the critical thing. If transit saves people their time and can be implemented at a reasonable cost, it will be successful. HOV lanes and the Park & Ride system are excellent examples.

[musicman]

my point exactly. They need to make it so you don't have to drive to the bus stop.

I'm looking long term. How it would look like when pretty much complete. I know right now it only affects a few people. But when it's complete, things like stops closer to your house will be in place.

-----

am i being the the term i've seen some people here use?...an elitest?

Lockmat, you have to stay with us. numerous people have already said that your statement "you need to make it so you don't have to drive ot the bus stop." is NOT possible for EVERYONE due to the size of houston.

Given that, your point is not an accurate one.

Not sure if you've even been to houston but take it as a fact, we are spread out. Therefore we can't build enough rail to make it feasible for everyone. Take that as a fact as well so we can move on.

You're not an elitist, you just seem to be ignoring the information being presented to you.

[lockmat]

hmmm...if they are PLANNING to slow traffic down, that seems inefficient. more gas will be used, trips will take longer, etc. and since public transportation is slow it seems like people will spend more time traveling. for me, the goal of public transporation is to move people as quickly and as cheaply as possible. not sure our goals are compatible.

Go volunteer at City Hall. I think your naivety will definitely be affected. I don't think planning is in the vocabulary downtown.

You're right, I don't know how DT works. But thats how it should of course.

And I don't think the answer is slowing down traffic.

[webdude]

I dont think Europes model is best at all. I think it sucks. Thier model is to punish people that have cars buy charging ridiculous amounts of taxes and such for fuel, which in turn forces people to use public transport or pay out the ass for fuel. That socialist garbage is not for me. Im in Europe frequently and will be headed there again tomorrow. The bulk of my European counterparts are envious of the freedom to drive and own cars here for relatively cheap prices.

If rail is socialist garbge, so are freeways, who do you think collects taxpayer money and pays for those? To be truely non-socialist, we should all use horses and ride on dirt. I go europe less frequently but the last time I did, they laugh at our lack of public transport, that's why they visit and explore other cities in the US.

[lockmat]

Lockmat, you have to stay with us. numerous people have already said that your statement "you need to make it so you don't have to drive ot the bus stop." is NOT possible for EVERYONE due to the size of houston.

Given that, your point is not an accurate one.

Not sure if you've even been to houston but take it as a fact, we are spread out. Therefore we can't build enough rail to make it feasible for everyone. Take that as a fact as well so we can move on.

You're not an elitist, you just seem to be ignoring the information being presented to you.

Understood. And I'm not trying to validate my point, but just sayin that I meant buses should be closer to neighborhoods, that could take them to the closest rail station.

I'll move on now.

And yeah, I grew up in the Spring/Tomball/Woodlands area, so I understand the sprawl, DT Houston is not a stranger to me.

[musicman]

And I don't think the answer is slowing down traffic.

So you're saying that the European model that you repeated quoted isn't good now?

I hope so. Each city is different and requires different strategies to address traffic.

[lockmat]

So you're saying that the European model that you repeated quoted isn't good now?

I hope so. Each city is different and requires different strategies to address traffic.

I'm not saying it isn't good. I never said it was either. I was just stating the fact. What I am saying is that it's not what I would do for Houston. They can do that b/c they haven't already sprawled like us. If we could start the city over it might be a good idea, but of course not now.

So you're correct; each city is different and needs different solutions

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

If rail is socialist garbge, so are freeways, who do you think collects taxpayer money and pays for those? To be truely non-socialist, we should all use horses and ride on dirt. I go europe less frequently but the last time I did, they laugh at our lack of public transport, that's why they visit and explore other cities in the US.

Reread what i said. Public transportation is nice but it isnt nice to force me or anyone to use it by digging into my pockets and making me or anyone else pay out the ass for having my own vehicle and not be transit dependant. That is the way in Europe. Next time you are there, take a look at the price of fuel. As for the people you meet there that laugh at our lack of public transportation, i guess you and i move in different circles--that has not been my experience. In fact, when my British counterparts come to America on business and or vacation, they usuallly make it a point to rent the big American SUVs to drive around and explore. Again, they are amazed at how cheap it is to own and operate an automobile! Im in Europe upwards of 50 times per year.

[lockmat]

Reread what i said. Public transportation is nice but it isnt nice to force me or anyone to use it by digging into my pockets and making me or anyone else pay out the ass for having my own vehicle and not be transit dependant. That is the way in Europe. Next time you are there, take a look at the price of fuel. As for the people you meet there that laugh at our lack of public transportation, i guess you and i move in different circles--that has not been my experience. In fact, when my British counterparts come to America on business and or vacation, they usuallly make it a point to rent the big American SUVs to drive around and explore. Again, they are amazed at how cheap it is to own and operate an automobile! Im in Europe upwards of 50 times per year.

But even if they own a car, how much and far do they travel compared to someone in the US? If it's less, which I would venture to say yes, it probably balances out to our prices. Could be wrong, you tell me. Not to mention their cars are tiny and get better gas milage.

[TheNiche]

If rail is socialist garbge, so are freeways, who do you think collects taxpayer money and pays for those? To be truely non-socialist, we should all use horses and ride on dirt.

Well, actually, to be truely non-socialist, every single road would have to be a privately-owned toll road. Cars would still exist, as would paved roads, but it would admittedly not be a very efficient system, and would be rife with antitrust violations.

Ideally, though every road would be a toll road where aggregate tolls charged per mile traveled equal precisely the amount necessary to finance, build, and maintain each segment of road. With this arrangement, those who drive more pay more--free riders are eliminated. With RFID and GPS technology, this day may yet come to pass...probably not in the U.S., but somewhere.

[DJ V Lawrence]

But even if they own a car, how much and far do they travel compared to someone in the US? If it's less, which I would venture to say yes, it probably balances out to our prices. Could be wrong, you tell me. Not to mention their cars are tiny and get better gas milage.

Think about it this way: Most other countries don't drive as much as they do walk when it comes to navagating throughout the city. We have some kind of stigma to walking. It's like krytonite to us. Yet we gotta walk down a subway in Houston? Down steps? Slow down, yo...

[webdude]

Reread what i said. Public transportation is nice but it isnt nice to force me or anyone to use it by digging into my pockets and making me or anyone else pay out the ass for having my own vehicle and not be transit dependant. That is the way in Europe. Next time you are there, take a look at the price of fuel. As for the people you meet there that laugh at our lack of public transportation, i guess you and i move in different circles--that has not been my experience. In fact, when my British counterparts come to America on business and or vacation, they usuallly make it a point to rent the big American SUVs to drive around and explore. Again, they are amazed at how cheap it is to own and operate an automobile! Im in Europe upwards of 50 times per year.

Using this logic, I would say I am forced to buy a vehicle when I don't have to,

(which is actually not too far from the truth after moving to houston, before only need vehicle for weekend use, and walk or public rail/transportation for everything else)

Why am I forced to pay for freeways when I rather pay only for rails? (using your logic)

I guess I am hanging with the wrong crowd. Every new city I go to, I explore by public transportation, seems the most efficient way and I won't get lost. I also get to focus on people and culture every step of the way instead of having to concentrate on driving and finding my way around.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Using this logic, I would say I am forced to buy a vehicle when I don't have to,

(which is actually not too far from the truth after moving to houston, before only need vehicle for weekend use, and walk or public rail/transportation for everything else)

Why am I forced to pay for freeways when I rather pay only for rails? (using your logic)

I guess I am hanging with the wrong crowd. Every new city I go to, I explore by public transportation, seems the most efficient way and I won't get lost. I also get to focus on people and culture every step of the way instead of having to concentrate on driving and finding my way around.

Look at it this way, those freeways you are barking about are used for more than just people to drive thier cars on. They are used for business and commerce as well as evacuation routes into and out of the city in crisis situations. Again, i believe the people of Europe are envious of our ability to own and operate automobiles cheaply. How many 16 year olds that you know of in Europe, own automobiles? My guess will be non. The reason for that isnt because they cannot drive, its due to it being cost prohibitive to own and operate personal vehicles there. The mantra of-public transit being better in Europe than it is here- is tired. My guess is, it had better be very good since they are taxing people out the ass. To force the populous to use public transport through high taxes and not provide a good transit system would be suicide for the politicians there.

[713 To 214]

Again, i believe the people of Europe are envious of our ability to own and operate automobiles cheaply. How many 16 year olds that you know of in Europe, own automobiles? My guess will be non. . .

. . .as if that (ownership and operation of a car) were the end all, be all, of life!!! I have a different belief. I believe that an unequivocal majority of people who grow up in a society that places a minimal importance on the ownership and operation of a car, don't have near as much envy as you'd like to think they have of you and/or any of your kids who may be of car-driving age.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

. . .as if that (ownership and operation of a car) were the end all, be all, of life!!! I have a different belief. I believe that an unequivocal majority of people who grow up in a society that places a minimal importance on the ownership and operation of a car, don't have near as much envy as you'd like to think they have of you and/or any of your kids who may be of car-driving age.

Reread all that i have written and explain how your comment makes sense.

[713 To 214]

Reread all that i have written and explain how your comment makes sense.

I'm sure it will be much more interesting/entertaining for you to explain to us how my comment doesn't make sense.

[nate]

Houston does not yet need rail. It is far too expensive.

Another poster made a comment about the wait times of buses. That is one of the reasons why people don't take METRO. An easy way to increase ridership would be to decrease the size of METRO buses and have more of them. The drivers are unionized and hiring more would be more expensive than it should be. If METRO could begin hiring non-union drivers, we could save a lot of money. It doens't take a lot of skill to drive a van down Hillcroft.

We could allow jitney services without license and/or allow private bus companies or individuals to pick up anyone at METRO bus stops for whatever fare they can get.

All of these solutions would be cheap and could be accomplished nearly immediately with a significant impact on traffic patterns.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

An easy way to increase ridership would be to decrease the size of METRO buses and have more of them. The drivers are unionized and hiring more would be more expensive than it should be. If METRO could begin hiring non-union drivers, we could save a lot of money. It doens't take a lot of skill to drive a van down Hillcroft.

We could allow jitney services without license and/or allow private bus companies or individuals to pick up anyone at METRO bus stops for whatever fare they can get.

All of these solutions would be cheap and could be accomplished nearly immediately with a significant impact on traffic patterns.

Interesting. Would this solution not put more vehicles on the streets instead of less and increase traffic along wait times? Larger number of smaller vehicles on the streets doesnt do anything to help with congestion. I wouldnt trade my vehicle for a bus of any size only to sit in traffic, in a vehicle which i have no control over, just for the sake of riding a bus or using public transport.

[citykid09]

Houston does not yet need rail. It is far too expensive.

Another poster made a comment about the wait times of buses. That is one of the reasons why people don't take METRO. An easy way to increase ridership would be to decrease the size of METRO buses and have more of them. The drivers are unionized and hiring more would be more expensive than it should be. If METRO could begin hiring non-union drivers, we could save a lot of money. It doens't take a lot of skill to drive a van down Hillcroft.

We could allow jitney services without license and/or allow private bus companies or individuals to pick up anyone at METRO bus stops for whatever fare they can get.

All of these solutions would be cheap and could be accomplished nearly immediately with a significant impact on traffic patterns.

You people are so small town minded! You all need to come to Bryan/College Station and let real city folk run Houston. You guys act like citizens of small towns and you are making your city look really stupid. There must be something in the water down there because a lot of stupid decisions have been coming out of Houston latley:

Houston Texans: Pick Mario Williams orver Reggie Bush & Vince Young

Major Projects announced: Pretty much no results

METRO: Changing rail plan in to some goddamb guided busses

And the list goes on. To me Houston is run like a small town with lots of people in it. I use to be a big city of Houston fan as many of you know because I have been a part of this fourm since the begining (have not been around here much latley), but now I am a fan of cities with progress that you can see: Dallas & Austin to name a few!

[sevfiv]

i just can't believe that houston had NINETY miles of streetcar track in 1927...and now look at us!

[C2H]

You people are so small town minded! You all need to come to Bryan/College Station and let real city folk run Houston. You guys act like citizens of small towns and you are making your city look really stupid. There must be something in the water down there because a lot of stupid decisions have been coming out of Houston latley:

Houston Texans: Pick Mario Williams orver Reggie Bush & Vince Young

Major Projects announced: Pretty much no results

METRO: Changing rail plan in to some goddamb guided busses

And the list goes on. To me Houston is run like a small town with lots of people in it. I use to be a big city of Houston fan as many of you know because I have been a part of this fourm since the begining (have not been around here much latley), but now I am a fan of cities with progress that you can see: Dallas & Austin to name a few!

Citykid, you know you're Atlanta's # 1 fan. Stop being modest.

[713 To 214]

You people are so small town minded! You all need to come to Bryan/College Station and let real city folk run Houston. You guys act like citizens of small towns and you are making your city look really stupid. There must be something in the water down there because a lot of stupid decisions have been coming out of Houston latley:

Houston Texans: Pick Mario Williams orver Reggie Bush & Vince Young

Major Projects announced: Pretty much no results

METRO: Changing rail plan in to some goddamb guided busses

And the list goes on. To me Houston is run like a small town with lots of people in it. I use to be a big city of Houston fan as many of you know because I have been a part of this fourm since the begining (have not been around here much latley), but now I am a fan of cities with progress that you can see: Dallas & Austin to name a few!

Couldn't have said it better, myself!

[scarface]

You people are so small town minded! You all need to come to Bryan/College Station and let real city folk run Houston. You guys act like citizens of small towns and you are making your city look really stupid. There must be something in the water down there because a lot of stupid decisions have been coming out of Houston latley:

Houston Texans: Pick Mario Williams orver Reggie Bush & Vince Young

Major Projects announced: Pretty much no results

METRO: Changing rail plan in to some goddamb guided busses

And the list goes on. To me Houston is run like a small town with lots of people in it. I use to be a big city of Houston fan as many of you know because I have been a part of this fourm since the begining (have not been around here much latley), but now I am a fan of cities with progress that you can see: Dallas & Austin to name a few!

Citykid09, i share your frustrations as far as mass transit goes, but that issue is not Houston's fault. Metro is doing everything possible to get more rail, even took the initiative themselves and built the only line we have w/ no federal help. Blame the leaders in Congress who seem to have a personal vendeta against any progress for rail in Houston. Thank Culberson and Tom Delay.

[citykid09]

Citykid09, i share your frustrations as far as mass transit goes, but that issue is not Houston's fault. Metro is doing everything possible to get more rail, even took the initiative themselves and built the only line we have w/ no federal help. Blame the leaders in Congress who seem to have a personal vendeta against any progress for rail in Houston. Thank Culberson and Tom Delay.

Well we don't have to deal with (d)elay any more!

[scarface]

Well we don't have to deal with (d)elay any more!

RIGHT, now we have to get around Culberson with this University line.

If you don't like Houston anymore, that's fine, but don't ignore the progress in areas it has made or is making. Such as TMC developments, diverse neighborhoods, HOV system and the upcoming projects such as downtown park, Park tower, Blvd Place, High treet , and Pavilions.

I believe Houston is coming up. It's just missing a few key elements and sadly mass transit is currently one of them. That will be changing.