The Woodlands May Be Headed For Self-Government

[bachanon]

this is what i was referring to springtx. there are cultural differences. i've met many transplants here from pennsylvania, new york, new england, etc. that love the setting of the woodlands partly because (i figure) of the cultural references you mention. it's amazing that people jump to the conclusion that a development which happens to be 92% caucasion is intentionally exclusionary of certain segments of society. when certain segments of society have no cultural context to desire a thing, or simply choose not to embrace a lifestyle, it is not required (or morally necessary) that the development give incentives to minorities or bus people to its schools simply to provide diversity.

this is starting to sound like another thread.

[LTAWACS]

Any takers on my idea?

[SpringTX]

i've met many transplants here from pennsylvania, new york, new england, etc. that love the setting of the woodlands partly because (i figure) of the cultural references you mention.

As one of those folks, I agree completely with your observation. I also notice a lot of transplants from Great Britain (the accent always gives it away). I've never been there, but I know that traditional English landscape architecture/landscape design is the forefather of The Woodlands.

As for African Americans, I'm totally out of my league here, but I tend to notice more of the following preferences: 1) Caribbean, 2) African (of course), 3) Traditional Southern, 4) Traditional French (or Cajun). And, if true, this would make sense because most African Americans trace their roots through the historic American South.

So all we need now to test our hypothesis is to check the African American percentage of residents in an upscale planned community based on more of a Caribbean kind of theme. Tiki Island wouldn't exactly qualify, would it?

[Gank]

I don't mean to hijack the thread with talk of race, but I do think it's relevant to the overall issue of annexation. You guys can talk about utopia all you want, but your racial makeup doesn't come close to reflecting the urban area that you're part of. You're over 30 years old and you're less than 2% black. I would say that makes you a classic case of white flight. If you're making the case that black people don't want to live in the woods, check out the population of Cleveland, Texas and other areas. Rather than just saying, "Well, black people and Hispanics just don't choose to live here" you guys should be proactive in doing something about it. Until then I support annexing you, so you can join the whole family so to speak. You might think it will take away your soul, but I think it will give you more soul.

White Flight

[Trae]

The whole race issue is a hornet's nest to discuss, so I'm leery to even go there. But if we do get into it, it might deserve a thread of its own.

I'm not sure why The Woodlands is so white, especially since it is so very economically integrated: more so than most communities of its type in the country. I have a theory, though, and it's something that no sociologist will touch with a 10' pole. I'll go out on a limb with this one, even though it'll probably get a fiery storm of backlash upon me...

I wonder if African Americans don't have the same consumer preference for this sylvan kind of wonderland like other ethnic groups (those of European descent) do. There's no redlining any more. And there's no price point reducing the African Americans market - any African American could live in The Woodlands tomorrow if they wanted, because there's a ton of homes and rental units in all price ranges.

What made me think of this was trying to buy Lord of the Rings action figures for my nephews a couple Christmases ago. All the Wal-Mart in the white neighborhoods had a whole aisle of Lord of the Rings merchandise. But all the stores in the African American neighborhoods had none. It was the strangest thing I had ever seen. Obviously Lord of the Rings doesn't sell there. Maybe that's because all of that swords and fantasy genre is straight out of old English/Celtic and other European mythology.

So maybe the wooded "enchanted forest", Robin Hood, druid romanticism of The Woodlands is a cultural preference that inadvertently affects the racial composition. If so, I think it's too bad, because they don't know what they're missing. Although apparently Mexican nationals are the next big market for homes in The Woodlands - maybe that's a cultural preference, too.

If you're an African American on this forum, speak up and let us know if this sort of "cultural preference" notion seems to make any sense.

Ok, let the fiery storm of backlash upon me commence...

Well I'm blacC and I don't really care much for Lord of the Rings or Robin Hood. It is actually crap to me. I wouldn't care much for living in the Woodlands, either. It feels to sterile for me. Even out in Katy it feels that way. Nothing happens. The only fights happen at the mall.

Your thing about the Woodlands having this Robin Hood thing isn't true. Why do so many blacC people live in Atlanta. That whole metro looks like the Woodlands (tree wise).

I agree with Gank. There is no excuse for the Woodlands being only less than 2% blacC. Even Katy is more diverse than that)

[SpringTX]

If the wooded appeal makes no difference to African American homebuyers, and yet few African Americans are buying in The Woodlands, then why aren't more doing so?

If it's simply a preference for urban areas, how does this explain Westfield High School, for example, which is over half African American and is located 20 miles from downtown?

[ricco67]

While I would have to agree with the sterility of the woodlands (unless you're a nature lover or whatever) when it comes to a bit of diversity of things to do; but wasn't there a thread earlier on where were the best places for a MINORITY to live in?

Figures to me that the best place for a minority to live is wherever he can afford to live in.

now back to the original topic....

[Mark F. Barnes]

While I would have to agree with the sterility of the woodlands (unless you're a nature lover or whatever) when it comes to a bit of diversity of things to do; but wasn't there a thread earlier on where were the best places for a MINORITY to live in?

Figures to me that the best place for a minority to live is wherever he can afford to live in.

now back to the original topic....

And on another note, this is 2006, minorities, (and I really hate that term), people rather, can live where ever the hell they want. There are no white/black lines any more. There is no "other side of the tracks" racially anymore. Socially and financially yes there are still those lines and always will be. But if you have the money, you can live anywhere you want, and I defy anyone to try and stop you because of race or religion. The fallout of that hail storm will not be pleasant and possibly not survivable these days. The media will rip you to shreds, as well they should if you are that much of a bigot, to deny someone a place to live because of color or where they worship. Your safe haven for the world of bogots is surely in damnation, grow up and get with the damn program.

[SpringTX]

Back in the old days there were discriminatory real estate agents, discriminatory sellers, discriminatory lenders, discriminatory landlords, etc. Basically it was rigged to keep African Americans out of white communities. But that's been shattered to pieces by the changes in our country in the last 50 years. You rarely hear about stuff like that happening any more. There are too many laws against that stuff, too many internal rules to watch out for stuff like that, too much public disapproval of that, too much media as was said, and too many minorities themselves in positions of responsibility.

So can anyone answer: why aren't African Americans choosing to live in The Woodlands? And what can or should The Woodlands do differently (if anything)?

[Trae]

Did you not see my above post? The Woodlands doesn't really appeal to blacc families, like other cities (Katy, Sugar Land, Pearland) have. It has nothing to do with trees or "upscale" looks.

[bachanon]

one thing the woodlands could do is to include people of all races in its promotional media. you don't see alot of color on the woodlands website or brochures.

[LTAWACS]

Things like:

* Intentionally leaving 30% to 40% of the land as green space

* interconnected system of 100 miles of bike trails, dozens of parks, lakes/canals, and golf courses woven through residential areas

* Radical requirements for preserving existing trees, both residential and commercial (think of parking lot medians as forest)

* Managed (economic) diversity through mingling residence types, sizes, lots, builders, etc.

* An overwhelming number of cul-de-sacs

* Curved thoroughfares, circular thoroughfares

* Community grouped into villages

* Strict regulations on store fronts, building colors, signs, no billboards, - every street light is painted brown to blend in with the trees, Wal-Mart is brown, and the "golden arches" are about 2' tall on a brown wood sign.

* Etc.

* trees are good

* trees are good

* trees are good

* Im not sure how this is a good thing.

* How are an overwhelming number of cul-de-sacs good? no 90 degree angles is that it?

* So the shape of a street on a map is awesome?

* I'm not sure how this matters either... So this group of blocks is called Woodwood Forest. It's a village. Big deal? You're telling me they have neighborhoods... every city has neighborhoods.

* So they have signage regulations... wow.

I'm not convinced the above somehow make hoodlands something unique or special.

one thing the woodlands could do is to include people of all races in its promotional media. you don't see alot of color on the woodlands website or brochures.

They have to cater to their target demographic.

[Trae]

The trees and that is it. The cul-de-sacs do not let cars drive fast down the road, but a lot of people just turn on your street to make a u-turn if they get lost (I do often).

Yeah, Cinco Ranch and Sugar Land have signage regulations for their buildings, too. The Super Target in Cinco Ranch has the same elevation of bricc as Cinco Ranch. The stores close to First Colony in Sugar Land are the same way.

[Gank]

It seems to me that Spring would be a pretty good model for The Woodlands and Kingwood to imitate as far as getting rid of the white flight criticism. They're 16% hispanic and 7% black.

Spring

It's interesting to study the demographics of some of these areas. I didn't realize that Aldine is 56% Hispanic. The whole north side is its own area. West of I-45 I sort of know my way around, but east I'm lost. North of 1960 I'm lost if I'm too far off the freeway. Champions I know if I'm on 1960, but the side roads I don't know. I can see how the cops would get lost in The Woodlands.

[SpringTX]

Did you not see my above post? The Woodlands doesn't really appeal to blacc families, like other cities (Katy, Sugar Land, Pearland) have. It has nothing to do with trees or "upscale" looks.

From www.city-data.com:

The Woodlands is 2% black

Katy is 4% black

Sugar Land is 5% black

Pearland is 5% black

I haven't performed any tests for statistical significance, but those numbers only have a spread of a couple percentage points. In comparison, Houston is 25% black.

Even if you call these couple percentage points significant, what is it about Katy, Sugar Land, and Pearland that make them more attractive to blacks than The Woodlands? You said The Woodlands was "bland". Are you saying there's more retail or more nightlife or more amenities in those other communities?

How are an overwhelming number of cul-de-sacs good?

Cul-de-sacs are prized by families with kids.

I'm not convinced the above somehow make hoodlands something unique or special.

When I drive down the Hardy Toll Road and see the new communities going up, where they've clear-cut the land, and place homogenous little boxes in a row, and fill in every last square foot with development (instead of leaving 30% as green space), I'm glad I live where I live. If "trees are good" is all that The Woodlands offers as an example to other communities, I think that alone is commendable. I posted a thread about how studies show that presence of trees reduces crime and has all sorts of other benefits.

It seems to me that Spring would be a pretty good model for The Woodlands and Kingwood to imitate as far as getting rid of the white flight criticism. They're 16% hispanic and 7% black.

Spring

Spring is a neighborhood in "transition". Another word for that is "white flight". There were virtually no blacks or hispanics a generation ago. Now those groups are growing rapidly every year. In another generation, Spring's demographics will look very similar to its neighbor to the south: Aldine. If you're looking for an example of "stable" diversity, Spring doesn't fall into that category, unfortunately. And that community did nothing to welcome those minorities in, unfortunately. Those minorities have simply come in because of geographic proximity, affordable homes, access to amenities, etc.

[Trae]

I didn't even say any of those things that you quoted (except for the very first one).

[SpringTX]

I didn't even say any of those things that you quoted (except for the very first one).

Yeah, the 2nd and 3rd quotes were from Ltawacs and the 4th quote was from Gank. I reused your quote tags accidentally.

[Gank]

I kind of doubt that Spring will end up statistically like Aldine in the future, but I could be wrong. Sugarland has a large Asian population, for whatever it's worth. I think the Katy stats are a little misleading because the actual city is only about 12,000 people. A lot of what is west of 1960 is considered Katy as far as the school districts go. The high school breakdowns might offer you a better indication of the popultion in the larger Katy area.

[LTAWACS]

Cul-de-sacs are prized by families with kids.

This does not tell me how an overwhelming number of cul-de-sacs are "good".

When I drive down the Hardy Toll Road and see the new communities going up, where they've clear-cut the land, and place homogenous little boxes in a row, and fill in every last square foot with development (instead of leaving 30% as green space), I'm glad I live where I live. If "trees are good" is all that The Woodlands offers as an example to other communities, I think that alone is commendable. I posted a thread about how studies show that presence of trees reduces crime and has all sorts of other benefits.

Hrm... Trees are good however there are plenty of trees in other neighborhoods as well.

Spring is a neighborhood in "transition". Another word for that is "white flight". There were virtually no blacks or hispanics a generation ago. Now those groups are growing rapidly every year. In another generation, Spring's demographics will look very similar to its neighbor to the south: Aldine. If you're looking for an example of "stable" diversity, Spring doesn't fall into that category, unfortunately. And that community did nothing to welcome those minorities in, unfortunately. Those minorities have simply come in because of geographic proximity, affordable homes, access to amenities, etc.

I tend to agree. Your neighborhood is a function of your income and other socioeconomic factors.

[Mom22Blessings]

It seems to me that Spring would be a pretty good model for The Woodlands and Kingwood to imitate as far as getting rid of the white flight criticism. They're 16% hispanic and 7% black.

Spring

It's interesting to study the demographics of some of these areas. I didn't realize that Aldine is 56% Hispanic. The whole north side is its own area. West of I-45 I sort of know my way around, but east I'm lost. North of 1960 I'm lost if I'm too far off the freeway. Champions I know if I'm on 1960, but the side roads I don't know. I can see how the cops would get lost in The Woodlands.

The aldine statistic doesn't surprise me at all....I taught privately in an AISD Int school and i would say 90% of the kids were hispanic.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

So can anyone answer: why aren't African Americans choosing to live in The Woodlands? And what can or should The Woodlands do differently (if anything)?

Maybe its because no matter how much money they make and no matter how educated they are----when they move into mostly white areas, they begin to hear things like- the area is getting bad-the demographics are changing and whatever bogus BS that gets said here, to thinly cover the fact that some people are not comfortable living around people that are non-white. It shows up frequently on this forum, so much so that even Ray Charles can see it, and hes dead.

Places like Missouri City, Sugarland and other areas in Ft Bend County are seeing a growth explosion of well to do non whites that care about thier childrens futures and good schools and clean neighborhoods etc etc etc.

This white flight stuff will serve to bite the children of the participants of this mess in the ass in the future. Things are changing in this city and surrounding areas. There are very well educated non whites moving in an obtaining upper crust salaries and positions of power. If you dont think so, visit any hospital or high-tech related firm and take a big bite of reality.

I am a black man, although some think i am hispanic or french or puerto rican and the latest one i have heard is brazilian My wife and and sons are black. We live in Champions. Havent had any trouble with neighbors or any mess like that and most our neighbors are white. My boys didnt have any trouble in schools here and im pretty sure thats do to the fact that they have attended private schools all of thier lives.

[Guest Marty]

The aldine statistic doesn't surprise me at all....I taught privately in an AISD Int school and i would say 90% of the kids were hispanic.

I know the Aldine area very well i say 90% is about right.

[LTAWACS]

The aldine statistic doesn't surprise me at all....I taught privately in an AISD Int school and i would say 90% of the kids were hispanic.

So aldine offers affordable housing to illegals. That is a whole other thread perhaps.

[SpringTX]

This does not tell me how an overwhelming number of cul-de-sacs are "good".

Cul-de-sacs are prized by families with young children because it is thought that children can play safely in the street without "through" traffic running them over. I have kids that play in the street and, from what I have seen, I agree. (Gated communities are perceived to provide this same benefit.)

I have also seen in The Woodlands that cul-de-sacs form natural mini-communities of neighbors that are very tight-knit socially.

And many cul-de-sacs in The Woodlands, depending on how they are designed, create mini-islands. Filled with trees and often having benches, these create little mini-parks for the kids to play in.

I can't say enough good things about cul-de-sacs for families with young kids.

Trees are good however there are plenty of trees in other neighborhoods as well.

Some of the older inner loop neighborhoods have a ton of mature trees. But they've had 50 or more years more to let them grow. Out in the suburbs in some of these new communities where they're clear-cutting, and they're only planting 1 twig (crepe myrtle or whatever) in each yard, it'll be at least 2 generations before it looks anything like a wooded neighborhood.

And I can't say enough about trees. I keep referring to the research done by Frances Kuo on the effects on trees in communities. And it isn't just the trees - it's the noise buffer, the air quality, the shade, the sounds of birds, the other wildlife. There's a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts.

And we haven't even talked about the bike trails (100 miles of them). This isn't like biking around a park. These are trails winding through the neighborhoods. There are no sidewalks.

It isn't even like being out in the country. In the country, there are telephone polls, billboards, farms, trailers.

My descriptions don't do The Woodlands justice at all. The best way to get a sense of it is to see it in person.

[SpringTX]

Maybe its because no matter how much money they make and no matter how educated they are----when they move into mostly white areas, they begin to hear things like- the area is getting bad-the demographics are changing and whatever bogus BS that gets said here, to thinly cover the fact that some people are not comfortable living around people that are non-white. It shows up frequently on this forum, so much so that even Ray Charles can see it, and hes dead.

I've seen this kind of stuff, too. But I've also seen:

* I've seen white residents whisper and talk disparagingly about renters (young, white, male professionals) who had moved into the neighborhood.

* I've seen white residents whisper and talk disparagingly about gays who had moved into the neighborhood.

* I've seen residents talk disparagingly about muslims who had moved in.

* I've seen residents talk disparagingly about neighbors who had had mental problems, drinking problems, divorces, financial problems, or other troubles that are often perceived to be due to "bad character".

* I've seen many parents in The Woodlands who were less eager to let their kids befriend my kids once they learned that mine are stepchildren.

* I've had parents steer their kids away from my kids because we were too religious for them, or not religious enough, or the wrong religion.

* I've seen parents steer their kids away from other white kids because they lived in the "wrong neighborhoods" or lived in apartment complexes, or were from single-parent households, or had fathers who had blue-collar jobs, or had mothers who worked.

Things may seem all rosy on the surface for those of us born with white skin, but I can assure you that, once you get past the race criteria, there are just 1,000 other equally-harsh criteria for people to judge us on. People are extremely viscious and discriminating. And about the most meaningless things. That's why I spend a lot of time on online discussion forums like HAIF. No one can tell if I'm a one-eyed Japanese leper with a lisp.

[Guest Marty]

* I've seen residents talk disparagingly about neighbors who had had mental problems, drinking problems, divorces, financial problems, or other troubles that are often perceived to be due to "bad character".

Hay, when you point your finger at me you got three pointing back at you.

[KatieDidIt]

The Cul-de-Sac convos are something I will never get used to. I wish they could find better things to talk about than each other. But that involves getting out of the neighborhood and away from their kid's school every once and a while. There are so much more interesting things to talk about than other peoples lives..

I'm so busy I usually don't pay any attention to who is doing what or whom on the street, unless they are whacking down the fence line trees between us or blaring spot lights and music.

[mvromine]

Aldine as a whole is not 90% hispanic. It is much closer to 56%, like a previous poster mentioned. However, in certain parts it is far more hispanic than others. For instance, around MacArthur HS there is a large hispanic enrollment in those schools (because many hispanics live in this area - does that mean there's a brown-flight epidemic here (sorry, that's a whole other issue)). Then, if you go towards Eisenhower HS you will see the schools being almost 90% black. Because, you have now entered as one of the largest black communities in the US, Acres Homes.

But, when you look at Nimitz HS it is split almost evenly between black and hispanic enrollment. Much of this is due to the fact that Nimitz is largely a commuter school. Students are bussed to this school from all over the district (including Acres Homes, so that that community will not all go to one school).

Hey, maybe you could ask The Woodlands to bus some minorities in to make everyone happier? Then, I guess no one would have to argue about whether they are "allowed" into the blizzard.

[woody_hawkeye]

Aldine as a whole is not 90% hispanic. It is much closer to 56%, like a previous poster mentioned. However, in certain parts it is far more hispanic than others. For instance, around MacArthur HS there is a large hispanic enrollment in those schools (because many hispanics live in this area - does that mean there's a brown-flight epidemic here (sorry, that's a whole other issue)). Then, if you go towards Eisenhower HS you will see the schools being almost 90% black. Because, you have now entered as one of the largest black communities in the US, Acres Homes.

But, when you look at Nimitz HS it is split almost evenly between black and hispanic enrollment. Much of this is due to the fact that Nimitz is largely a commuter school. Students are bussed to this school from all over the district (including Acres Homes, so that that community will not all go to one school).

Hey, maybe you could ask The Woodlands to bus some minorities in to make everyone happier? Then, I guess no one would have to argue about whether they are "allowed" into the blizzard.

All this seems a bunch of Hullabaloo to me. I have lived in the midst of it for 8 years and there is nothing even resembling discrimination around here. The p;opulation exhibits a high tolerance for ethnic and cultural diversity. I seem to have every kind of neighbor there is, and no one talks about each other in any such way. Of course I do not encourage it either.

[shinoda28107]

I'm liking this discussion. I remember looking over the racial make-up of The Woodlands asking the same questions....

Yes, African Americans as a whole are improving their economis status' at a remarkably high rate (especially since the the mid-ninties).

Yes, African Americans are mimicking "white flight" patterns.

Yes, African Americans enjoy the same amentities available to others just the same.

Yes, the same goes for Hispanics

But, I'll tell you what I have noticed.....African Americans are paranoid! I have heard many stories of this region's racist past. Most of the hostile acts committed against African Americans did not occur in the City Of Houston, not Katy, not Sugarland or Baytown....but in Conroe, TX.

Though Conroe has a sizable black community, most of those families have been there for generations. The same cannot be said of The Woodlands, which was non-existent during the peak of the politcal, social, and cultural segregation taking place in this country. The Woodlands currently acts as a buffer between Houston (including the Spring area) and Conroe.

Most African Americans (including the 2% in The Woodlands) show reluctance to relocate near areas that were historically hostile to them. You would mostly notice this when traveling to certain rural areas (or Vidor, TX....wikipedia it). Of all communities in the Houston area, Conroe (by far) has the worst record of violence and discrimination. You should really do some research on this if you are interested.

So when faced with the option of choosing a suburban community to purchase a home, African Americans in the Houston area (whether they know it or not) are quick to look west, east, south, NW, or NE before they would consider venturing beyond Spring. Also, school districts are among the first things that any family considers before moving........

Though, it is not likely for a burning cross to appear on someone's lawn in The Woodlands today, that is a chance that the paranoid race is likely to avoid. Are there any valid reasons for this type of paranoia?...maybe not. That's just the way it is.

I just believe that this is part of the reason African Americans choose to reside elsewhere.

Just one factor in making a decision.....