When the Levees Broke

[Trae]

What did some of you you saw it think about it.

Part 1 was last night, and Part 2 is tonight. They are showing it the whole thing on August 29th (Part 1 and Part 2 together to make a four and a half showing on HBO).

My thoughts on Part 1 was it made Bush look like a big idiot, as well as Brown (especially a segment about a CNN reporter (forgot her name, but she is on in the mornings, interviewing Brown).

Also, it showed how Chertoff was the problem and Brown was the scapegoat (which he was). Some of the images were disturbing though (it is HBO). I didn't enjoy actually seeing the dead bodies that were covered up on TV, uncovered in this documentary.

They also showed how there were not rapes and murders galore in the Superdome like the media made it out to be, but it was bad. I suggest that some of you atleast watch part 2 tonight, and then the whole thing on August 29th.

[KinkaidAlum]

I watched it. I've been waiting to see it.

Honestly, it shamed me. Not just how awful the preparation was to the disaster, but also the response. It also sickens me to see what is happening today. It really does seem that there is a systematic ethnic/racial cleansing going on there at the direction of LOUISIANA politicians.

[The Great Hizzy!]

On my eyewitness travels through the whole of New Orleans back in May (not just the entertainment and tourist districts or the Garden District), I was surprised at how much basic "cleaning up" was still needed and how badly so many neighborhoods, even middle class neighborhoods, seemed to be deserted and/or gutted. While there may be a number of residents who have returned to the city, they are there with a very big burden on their shoulders and a lot of inconveniences with which to deal.

Not having streetlights or stoplights. Still not having 100% reliable water service. On going issues with vandalism or loitering in nearby residences that have not yet seen the return of their residents. While crime in the city is down overall, some areas are just as dangerous now as ever due to some of the new characteristics of the neighborhood: more isolated areas with a greater number of empty buildings, lack of streetlights, a NOPD force that still isn't able to mobilize like it used to, and a city that has had to hold back on some city services (for example, maintenance of the city's website is even more sporadic now). So it's a challenge for some who are still/back in the city.

In other words, there's been some progress since last year but the amount of work still needed is jaw dropping, especially when you consider the vastness of the areas that need that work.

[Trae]

Same. I mean five days just to get to damn New Orleans. Two days to go half-way across the world to Sri Lanka. I thought that was amazing. Also, how the U.S. Government supposedly "didn't know about the New Orleans Convention Center," when a 23 year old assisant for that one lady on CNN Mornings (forgot her name) found out about it "before Michael Brown and the President."

The lady on the right. She knew about it, but FEMA didn't??? Hard to believe.

[TJones]

Trae. perhaps you missed the part where Gov. Blanco failed to call in the National Guard for her state. Only the coast got flooded, NOT the whole state of Louisiana, and NOT just New Orleans got flooded. Spike forgot to focus a little more on the rest of the Gulf Coast that got flooded from the actual storm, not from a barge smashing into a levee.

I was surprised to see how many caucasian folks that Spike chose to interview, but all the pictures were of the death and destruction of the black folks in New Orleans.

[MidtownCoog]

It really does seem that there is a systematic ethnic/racial cleansing going on there at the direction of LOUISIANA politicians.

Agree, even the N.O. mayor is getting rid of his own. He was in Houston today telling them to come back but they'd better work.

Anyway, those "ethnics" being cleansed are the least of Louisana's problems.

It's still going to be one dysfunctional state even if all the residents are from Pluto.

[Trae]

Trae. perhaps you missed the part where Gov. Blanco failed to call in the National Guard for her state. Only the coast got flooded, NOT the whole state of Louisiana, and NOT just New Orleans got flooded. Spike forgot to focus a little more on the rest of the Gulf Coast that got flooded from the actual storm, not from a barge smashing into a levee.

I was surprised to see how many caucasian folks that Spike chose to interview, but all the pictures were of the death and destruction of the black folks in New Orleans.

That still doesn't explain how the government "didn't know" about the Convention Center, but everybody else did.

[gwilson]

The blame for the mess falls squarely on the shoulders of the governments responsible for the protection of the citizens. That is city and state. It would have been illegal for the federal government to take it upon themselves to force anything. Bush even requested permission from Blanco (the governor) to allow the Fed in to do what it could, but she refused. The Red Cross had trucks loaded with supplies, water and food, but they were stopped at the border because they couldn't do anything without permission. By the time the request to the fed was made for them to do something, it was far far too late. Nagin and Blanco then allowed the media to paint them as victims and the Fed as the system at fault. This was simply not the case.

The President did not have the power to deploy the National Guard. That power rests with the Governor.

The President did not have the power to force the Fed in to take over. That has to be requested by the Governor.

The President did not have the power to mandate anything. That must be approved by the Governor.

It was a mess, but Spike Lee, as usual, is blind as a bat when it comes to painting the white man as bad and the black man as a victim.

When the Fed was finally allowed in, there were mistakes made. But they were mistakes that could have been avoided or at least minimized had they been allowed in sooner to prepare.

As for the convention center, this might give you an idea of how that happened. The news media had on site, since before the store, microwave and satellite communications equipment. The government had to move this type of equipment in for it's own use. That could easily account for many of the communications breakdowns.

All in all, the entire situation was fubar. Do I think the Fed did the best job? No. Do I think they did most of what they could considering the situation? Yes.

[hokieone]

The blame for the mess falls squarely on the shoulders of the governments responsible for the protection of the citizens. That is city and state. It would have been illegal for the federal government to take it upon themselves to force anything. Bush even requested permission from Blanco (the governor) to allow the Fed in to do what it could, but she refused. The Red Cross had trucks loaded with supplies, water and food, but they were stopped at the border because they couldn't do anything without permission. By the time the request to the fed was made for them to do something, it was far far too late. Nagin and Blanco then allowed the media to paint them as victims and the Fed as the system at fault. This was simply not the case.

The President did not have the power to deploy the National Guard. That power rests with the Governor.

The President did not have the power to force the Fed in to take over. That has to be requested by the Governor.

The President did not have the power to mandate anything. That must be approved by the Governor.

It was a mess, but Spike Lee, as usual, is blind as a bat when it comes to painting the white man as bad and the black man as a victim.

When the Fed was finally allowed in, there were mistakes made. But they were mistakes that could have been avoided or at least minimized had they been allowed in sooner to prepare.

As for the convention center, this might give you an idea of how that happened. The news media had on site, since before the store, microwave and satellite communications equipment. The government had to move this type of equipment in for it's own use. That could easily account for many of the communications breakdowns.

All in all, the entire situation was fubar. Do I think the Fed did the best job? No. Do I think they did most of what they could considering the situation? Yes.

Did you even watch the show? I don't think Spike really played up the black vs white thing as much I thought he would have. I really thought it was going to be all about that, especially with Spike involved, but he had quite a few whites from New Orleans on there. Is it easy to pick and choose and consciously decide who to include in the documentary? Obviously. But I don't think (at least in the part of part I I saw and the parts of today's I saw) he really went after the government for not aiding because people were black. Spike went after the slow reaction by the government. The usual other suspects were on to point the race finger (Al Sharpton), but the local N.O. media was also doing the same.

The old mayor of new orleans said it best I thought during yesterday's part. When such a disaster happens, you do not let politics enter the picture. You don't think about who has the power to do this and who comes off looking better, you just send help. As for the shots at Bush, I thought they were justified. Spike didn't make Nagin look like a hero and he didn't do anything nice for Blanco either. He basically said Nagin was way overwhelmed and Blanco was pretty clueless and they did point at her for refusing Bush's aid. But Bush waiting for a week to even tour the area is pretty ridiculous, not to mention he didn't make the offers until that delayed visit. He still went to San Diego in the middle of the storm. The fact Brown was in charge of FEMA to begin with. That Chertoff could have cut through the red tape bit didn't. That Cheney was off fishing. I know its the media and easy to blame the fed government, but regardless, those aren't exactly the kind of actions that should have happened.

Is it an unbiased look at the events? No. Was it interesting? Yes. I did like the parts today that made it pretty clear its not as if New Orleans was an oasis before this all happened. Crime, poverty, terrible schools, all were pointed out. They actually make a few positive comments about Houston being a much better situation in terms of these points. I think it was overall (at least the parts I saw) a well done documentary, that made a good point about whether it was politics, or whose fault it was, or whatever, it was that made everything go bad - one of the worst reactions to such a large disaster this country has ever seen. I missed the end today, but probably will DVR it on the 29th to fill in the gaps.

[gwilson]

The points made about Bush responding slowly are just rediculous. He couldnt do anythign without permission from the state. And he still had a country to run as well. The world doesnt end because of a hurricaine. As for him taking a week to tour. The area was far from secure enough to allow the leader of the free world to visit it. Roaming gangs shooting at everyone, etc. Not a place you want the President.

Anyway, im not apologizing for the President or the Fed. I am simply pointing out it wasn't all their fault.

[RedScare]

The points made about Bush responding slowly are just rediculous. He couldnt do anythign without permission from the state. And he still had a country to run as well. The world doesnt end because of a hurricaine. As for him taking a week to tour. The area was far from secure enough to allow the leader of the free world to visit it. Roaming gangs shooting at everyone, etc. Not a place you want the President.

Anyway, im not apologizing for the President or the Fed. I am simply pointing out it wasn't all their fault.

I haven't seen the movie, and I am not going to rehash the debate, but I will say this. An administration that WANTED to help, as opposed to scoring political points at the expense of people's lives, would have advised the local screwups what papers needed to be signed for the Fed to help, like they always manage to do in Florida. I enjoy hearing apologists for the Bush Administration try to shift blame. It is the perfect counterpoint to their cries of Accountability.

I would also note that if this is the best we can expect from our government, then we are in big trouble as a country. If this is Republican government at it's best, don't feed that 'Best country in the world' line to me.

[sunsets]

And he still had a country to run as well. The world doesnt end because of a hurricaine.

Well of course he did. But he really didn't need to be mugging for the cameras at a navy base in San Diego while the rest of the country was glued to CNN, watching in horror as a major U.S. city was inundated.

IMHO, that's clueless behavior, and watching that really destroyed whatever bit of faith I had in this administration to competently run the country in a time of national disaster. Yes, the state and local authorities screwed up, but I expect the president of my country to at least act concerned.

Pointing fingers and whining "we didn't know what was going on" does nothing. Accepting responsibility (no matter who was at fault) and trying to make things better as soon as possible are the best courses of action.

[Trae]

And he still had a country to run as well. The world doesnt end because of a hurricaine.

Yeah, so why bother going to Sri Lanka and India in two days after an earthquake right. I mean we are in America, half-way across the world...

Man New Orleans is in this damn country. Help should not have taken this long. The President should not have been in San Diego. Condoleeza Rice shouldn't have been shopping for some new expensive shoes to wear once. The government should not have been sitting on their ass for five damn days man.

When Betsy?? hit New Orleans back in '65 and New Orleans flooded. President Johnson was there quick wading through the water with the citizens and a flashlight in his hand. George Bush was telling Brown how good of a job he did...

[TJones]

I haven't seen the movie, and I am not going to rehash the debate, but I will say this. An administration that WANTED to help, as opposed to scoring political points at the expense of people's lives, would have advised the local screwups what papers needed to be signed for the Fed to help, like they always manage to do in Florida. I enjoy hearing apologists for the Bush Administration try to shift blame. It is the perfect counterpoint to their cries of Accountability.

I would also note that if this is the best we can expect from our government, then we are in big trouble as a country. If this is Republican government at it's best, don't feed that 'Best country in the world' line to me.

So Red, you think it was because Blanco was a Democrat Gov. that Bush played the BIG MEANY, and didn't tell Blanco what papers were needed to get the Feds in there, or was it her needing 24 hours to think about it and see if her state had the resources to deal with it on their own ? Nagin makes the claim that Blanco declined when help was offered, Blanco swears that never happened, Bush claims that she needed 24 hours, who is right ?

The reason why Florida gets immediate help is because Jeb isn't prideful enough to NOT ask for the help. He calls up on the "Red Line" before the storm hits and tells his brother to be ready.

[MidtownCoog]

Bush just hates Cajuns and Creoles.

Hell, who doesn't?

It was just payback from when Bush was a boy and was picked on by a Coon Ass bully from LSU.

[houstonmacbro]

That still doesn't explain how the government "didn't know" about the Convention Center, but everybody else did.

for heaven's sake, i was watching it live on cnn (and cnn.com) as it was happening. for those to say they 'didn't know' about it is ... disturbing.

the government knows about everything else, all they had to do was turn on the television. i am pretty sure there is cable hookup in the oval office.

nevertheless, i cannot place ALL the blame on the white house, as local and state officials i'm sure did their part to mess up things. needless to say this was a NATIONAL crisis that did require federal government preparedness and response.

i did not see it (the show on hbo) but i want to watch it this weekend over at my sister's house (i think she taped it), so i will reserve my comments on the actual show until actually viewed.

[gwilson]

I haven't seen the movie, and I am not going to rehash the debate, but I will say this. An administration that WANTED to help, as opposed to scoring political points at the expense of people's lives, would have advised the local screwups what papers needed to be signed for the Fed to help, like they always manage to do in Florida. I enjoy hearing apologists for the Bush Administration try to shift blame. It is the perfect counterpoint to their cries of Accountability.

I would also note that if this is the best we can expect from our government, then we are in big trouble as a country. If this is Republican government at it's best, don't feed that 'Best country in the world' line to me.

This might be a valid smug retort if it had any teeth. When Bush requested Blanco turn over emergency control to the Fed BEFORE the storm hit, it was in the form of a letter that only needed to be signed and returned.

What else could he have done? Signed it for her?

Well of course he did. But he really didn't need to be mugging for the cameras at a navy base in San Diego while the rest of the country was glued to CNN, watching in horror as a major U.S. city was inundated.

IMHO, that's clueless behavior, and watching that really destroyed whatever bit of faith I had in this administration to competently run the country in a time of national disaster. Yes, the state and local authorities screwed up, but I expect the president of my country to at least act concerned.

Pointing fingers and whining "we didn't know what was going on" does nothing. Accepting responsibility (no matter who was at fault) and trying to make things better as soon as possible are the best courses of action.

When he has been given the power to help, he has shined (al a 9/11). If he isn't given the power, there isn't ____ he can do.

And yes, he did need to mug for the cameras. Should the rest of the country been neglected because LA couldn't get their ____ straight? No.

Yeah, so why bother going to Sri Lanka and India in two days after an earthquake right. I mean we are in America, half-way across the world...

Man New Orleans is in this damn country. Help should not have taken this long. The President should not have been in San Diego. Condoleeza Rice shouldn't have been shopping for some new expensive shoes to wear once. The government should not have been sitting on their ass for five damn days man.

When Betsy?? hit New Orleans back in '65 and New Orleans flooded. President Johnson was there quick wading through the water with the citizens and a flashlight in his hand. George Bush was telling Brown how good of a job he did...

Perhaps because 100,000 people died there. You seem to continue to miss the point, the help was slow because the STATE did not ask for the help. The STATE has to ask before the fed can do anything. It is the law. Didn't anyone take civics?

needless to say this was a NATIONAL crisis that did require federal government preparedness and response.

No, it wasn't a national crisis. Mississippi, Alabama and Florida fared just fine on their own for several reasons. 1. They asked for help. 2. They prepared.

If this was all Bush's fault, why didn't Miss, AL, and Fla chime in during the blame game?

[bachanon]

a portion of this argument would be moot if citizens of the united states understood that we are a republic. the states have unique rights and responsibilities. the feds cannot come in like a saviour and make it all better. "first responders" are our neighbors and our local and state authorities.

[RedScare]

No, it wasn't a national crisis. Mississippi, Alabama and Florida fared just fine on their own for several reasons. 1. They asked for help. 2. They prepared.

If this was all Bush's fault, why didn't Miss, AL, and Fla chime in during the blame game?

BAY ST. LOUIS, Miss.

[westguy]

Katrina was a Category 3 storm at landfall, but it had one of the lowest landfall pressures and one of the highest storm surgers ever observed. The levys were designed to withstand a Category 3 hurricane, but they've fallen behind on maintenance. The Army Corps of Engineers was supposed to reinforce them, but their budget had been drained and diverted to the Iraq war. We can point fingers about the evacuation, but the bigger problem was (and still is) the infrastructure. Another major Gulf storm will flood the city all over again.

[Heights2Bastrop]

I think Spike Lee is about as racist as they come, and I don't watch his stuff. However, I doubt if this movie can possibly be as bad as that crap piece Oprah aired following Katrina. I used to like her before that.

[VicMan]

I think Spike Lee is about as racist as they come, and I don't watch his stuff. However, I doubt if this movie can possibly be as bad as that crap piece Oprah aired following Katrina. I used to like her before that.

What was that movie like? I never saw that one before...

[TJones]

I think Spike Lee is about as racist as they come, and I don't watch his stuff. However, I doubt if this movie can possibly be as bad as that crap piece Oprah aired following Katrina. I used to like her before that.

H2B, the movie wasn;t really bad at all. In fact next to Malcolm X, I found it very good, I think he could have expanded a little more, and really gotten to the root of the problem, but I kind of went into it knowing you wouldn't any negative showing towards the state and local Govt. :closedeyes:

btw, he could have left the Rev. Al out of the whole movie.

[Trae]

Perhaps because 100,000 people died there. You seem to continue to miss the point, the help was slow because the STATE did not ask for the help. The STATE has to ask before the fed can do anything. It is the law. Didn't anyone take civics?

We didn't know the death toll when we went, but that is not a valid point. This is Bush's country, and he should have been there. No questions asked.

I think Spike Lee is about as racist as they come, and I don't watch his stuff. However, I doubt if this movie can possibly be as bad as that crap piece Oprah aired following Katrina. I used to like her before that.

It actually wasn't that bad. I'm black and it looked like to me he got to many different races, not just his own. It wasn't really biased either, except for showing George Bush and the government in bad sight through out the whole thing, which was needed because they did a horrible job.

btw, he could have left the Rev. Al out of the whole movie.

:lol:

[Gary]

Has anyone considered that we're talking about Louisiana here? As simplistic as that is, it's the truth. The state has stolen federal dollars for years that were designated for police, flooding, levy systems. Of course this has been the states history for years, even before Huey Long.

Louisiana is a disfuntional pot of morons and crooks, always has been. It's time that they shoulder some of this responsibility instead of sitting on ther butts and complaining. I for one, think "tough love" is in order. in other words, you can't go blow your federal dollars on crap when you have certain responsibilties.

[TheNiche]

a portion of this argument would be moot if citizens of the united states understood that we are a republic. the states have unique rights and responsibilities.

Bingo. If Bush had made the decision to send in substantial aid before receiving permission, he would've been violating the law and could justifiably be impeached. Clinton was impeached for far less. And remember that at the time, the media was reporting incidents of armed looting and even shots being fired at helicopters. The media seems to have gotten it wrong (just looking for an opportunity to report more havoc for the sake of ratings), but if presidential advisors were watching that, surely the thought that sending the military in might create a shootout between the federal military and armed civilians. That'd be a political disaster far in excess of the 'slow response' issue if Blanco hadn't specifically asked for the aid.

The Army Corps of Engineers was supposed to reinforce them, but their budget had been drained and diverted to the Iraq war. We can point fingers about the evacuation, but the bigger problem was (and still is) the infrastructure. Another major Gulf storm will flood the city all over again.

I can't stand it when people start grasping for straws like this; it only confuses an issue. The Iraq war started in March of 2003. Would the final environmental study have even been completed before August of 2005 (using the unlikely assumption that they started it in March 2003)? Even if they'd started actual construction, do you think that there's a possibility that the situation in NO might've been made worse if Katrina had hit in the middle of a retrofit job?

Has anyone considered that we're talking about Louisiana here? As simplistic as that is, it's the truth. The state has stolen federal dollars for years that were designated for police, flooding, levy systems. Of course this has been the states history for years, even before Huey Long.

You are correct. Last year (after Katrina, before Rita) for a work-related assignment, I had to meet with the city manager of a small town in southwestern Louisiana to discuss the capabilities of the town's airport. It was a pretty nice airport considering its backwater location. He explained very openly and in very clear terms that Louisiana politics are unlike nearly anywhere else. They've never been at a loss for pork.

[TJones]

Katrina was a Category 3 storm at landfall, but it had one of the lowest landfall pressures and one of the highest storm surgers ever observed. The levys were designed to withstand a Category 3 hurricane, but they've fallen behind on maintenance. The Army Corps of Engineers was supposed to reinforce them, but their budget had been drained and diverted to the Iraq war. We can point fingers about the evacuation, but the bigger problem was (and still is) the infrastructure. Another major Gulf storm will flood the city all over again.

West, do you actually believe that the levees just weakened between 2003 and 2005 ? Think about it before you start typing it. Did you see the movie ? Apparently there are reports that the levees in question were only at a level 1 or 2 status, and if the barge hadn't barreled into it causing the major break point in lower 9th ward, this may or may not had happened at all. The thing is, that these levees broke at about 3 or 4 in the morning while everyone was asleep, people were waking up to their houses being flooded already, they didn't even have time to get out, if it had happened at about 3 or 4 in the afternoon, this would have been a waaaaaaayyyy different story. Alot more people would have left in their cars. Don't even try to go there about most of them not having cars either, that is B.S. I saw literally thousands of cars littering the streets, it was a matter of wrong place at the wrong time.