Carlton Woods, Creekside, The Woodlands

[TheNiche]

I thought 2978 was the definite western boundary separating the Woodlands from Magnolia. Even if they extend the Parkway, you'd still technically be in Magnolia by the time you get to 249.

I agree with you that the balance of classes is too socialist to work in 2006, but come on, you musn't embrace unrestrained capitalism without discipline. Then you'd end up with the intersection of Kuykendahl and 2920. If the Woodlands looked anything like that, I guarantee you you'd be complaining. I dare you to drive through that intersection and not instantly form a negative impression of it or have the desire to close your eyes. What made countries like France and old towns in America great was that everyone worked hard to build them, but they were concerned with the overall look of the community in addition to the money that could be made. The Woodlands, unlike Spring, still has an eye for planning, and even though Mitchell's vision is no longer applicable, the Woodlands still looks a heck of a lot better than most parts of Houston, even if it's all about the money now.

Actually, Napeoleon (a dictator) was responsible for the parts of France that Americans seem to fawn over. That kind of thing can only possibly happen in places like The Woodlands in its original form, where one incredibly wealthy person has a virtual monopoly on many tens of thousands of acres of land.

And the unintended consequences that I was referring to apply more to the citizens of France than to American tourists...just think: we get to see the end result and go "oh" and "ah". They got to build it because their dictator was concerned about being overthrown in a riot...and then a whole bunch of other stuff happened to them along the same lines over the centuries, but they don't seem to learn.

EDIT: Oh, and the market-created form of "unintended consequences" are called externalities, molopolies, and monopsonies. Regulation of varying forms is often appropriate...but extreme care must be taken with such policies or else you'll just end up forcing the price of goods upward for often ridiculous reasons.

[RedScare]

You know, Niche, it's not too late to just hit "Edit" and erase all of the unintelligible garbage you just wrote.

[PureAuteur]

Carlton Woods should be happy that these people aren't running the Woodlands City Council. Hehe.

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news...6/9bighome.html

[TheNiche]

You know, Niche, it's not too late to just hit "Edit" and erase all of the unintelligible garbage you just wrote.

Which part?

The broad avenues of Paris were created because it was more difficult for rioters to barricade the streets with debris that could not be punctured by rifle or cannon fire. Its a whole lot easier to tame your unruly masses when you can shoot at them.

And if you were referring to the vocabulary of market failures, then go pick up a textbook. I don't believe anything about the saying that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

[pineda]

Then you'd end up with the intersection of Kuykendahl and 2920. If the Woodlands looked anything like that, I guarantee you you'd be complaining. I dare you to drive through that intersection and not instantly form a negative impression of it or have the desire to close your eyes.

If you don't like the looks of that intersection NOW, just wait till the Grand Parkway gets built! All of that land in the area you speak of was recently developed by developers who somehow thought they had the inside skinny on when and where the Grand Parkway was going to be built. And the DEIS document states that the Grand Parkway won't encourage commercial development...

p.s. Don't forget to attend the Public Hearing tomorrow and Wednesday night starting at 7:00 p.m. at Klein Collins High School. The Grand Parkway Association in conjunction with TxDOT and the FHWA will be presenting (ta-dah!) Public Hearing #3 for Segment F-2 of the Grand Parkway. Not much has changed in the document since the last time they trotted it out for public scrutiny, except this time the route going into Montgomery County will be presented for the first time. I don't expect the document to be any better received than the last two times it was presented and soundly denounced by a standing-room only crowd.

[mrfootball]

I suppose if Jon Lindsey doesn't make a fortune from his inside deals acquiring properties along the proposed Grand Pkwy route...he could always sell that land to the WDC.

[pineda]

Don't look for lame-duck Senator Jon Lindsay or Harris County Commissioner Pct. 4 Jerry Eversole in the audience tomorrow night. They NEVER show up to public meetings, they like to conduct all THEIR business behind closed doors. Their poor underpaid reps. will probably be there with their standard "No Comment" when people recognize them. Lindsay, what a loser!

[gwilson]

This thread has just gotten hilarious.

If I had a reason to be on the north side, I'd gladly enjoy a gated community like Carlton Woods (where I spend most of my days anyway).

It is a beautiful neighborhood with beautiful homes and great people. And yes, the gates keep the riff raff out.

[pineda]

If I had a reason to be on the north side, I'd gladly enjoy a gated community like Carlton Woods (where I spend most of my days anyway).

It is a beautiful neighborhood with beautiful homes and great people. And yes, the gates keep the riff raff out.

If you like "gated communities" on the north side, you might really enjoy Huntsville!

[bachanon]

> bad pineda.

[bachanon]

As for Pure Autuer's belief that this is somehow against the spirit of the Woodlands, he seems not to understand how the Woodlands grew in the first place. It grew as a refuge from the city, a place for those who wanted to escape the close proximity to their neighbors, "white flight", to use an ugly descriptive term. Gated communities in the Woodlands are just a natural extension of the phenomenon that created the Woodlands in the first place.

sorry red, the spirit of the woodlands and how it grew are two different things.

the woodlands was created as an antidote to sprawl. from the beginning, it was developed to be a place for people to "live, work, shop and become involved in their community". in the book "the woodlands, the inside story of creating a better hometown", roger galatas describes george mitchell's concern with rapid, haphazard development. this was the 1960s.

the original concept was a new city, not a new development. the myriad neighborhood, social and church activities in the woodlands bring people together on a constant basis. we are in CLOSE proximity to our neighbors. we live on cul-de-sacs that have other cul-de-sacs. yes, you can be separate from your neighbor if you choose, but you'll have to go out of your way. if you attend church, have kids in school, attend social events, shop, eat out and especially if you work in the woodlands, you will constantly run in to your neighbors and friends and coworkers. many of the families who were here in "the beginning" were not from houston, they were from all over the country. families we knew moved here for new jobs at HARC and other research companies. yes, many people move here and commute; however, the culture (yes, culture) of the woodlands is unlike what many people would consider of a "bedroom community".

of course, that being said, the woodlands could not have survived without its proximity to houston. don't call it a "bedroom community" please.

is it not presumptive to say that people who moved here simply "wanted to escape close proximity to their neighbors"?

[KatieDidIt]

Bach, so true. If you like neighbor avoidance, you don't move to the Woodlands, you remain in Pure's old-capitalism areas. You may wave at your neighbors there, have few friends on the street, but you can basically live in anonimity if you wish.

I've never lived in a true suburb before, and it still amazes me that party invitations arrive on my door from people who live blocks over, that we've never met before. And if you have a party, you can't invite just friends because someone on the street that you know only casually, might get their feelings hurt. If you go on vacation, blocks know it and where you went, and are staying. If you have a cold and open the door for a package, you get a call asking if you need chicken soup. (Actually happened)

I was actually told one day that I must really not want to talk to anyone because when I pulled into my garage, I always closed the garage door behind me... I've lived in big cities my whole life, its kindof a security habit. And I'll admit, some days I do it on purpose when I see someone in the street I don't have the energy or time to talk to right that second. Maybe its just our area, but to a family that is used to moderate privacy, its a little bizarre.

I've learned to live with it, am not longer shocked by it. Yet I still find it weird to have neighbors, whom aren't close friends, so interested in us.

So yeah, I would never say that a move to the Woodlands was in pursuit of space from your neighbors.

[pineda]

many of the families who were here in "the beginning" were not from houston, they were from all over the country.

I have found this particular statement to be true. Most of the people I've met who live in the Woodlands are not even from Texas, let alone Houston. I chalk this fact up to the fact that the Woodlands propaganda machine does an excellent job of marketing "America's Hometown" to communities up and down the Eastern seaboard and elsewhere. Another phenomenon that I've noticed in the Woodlands area, in particular, is that people who live there seem to first identify themselves by what "village" they live in, and seem to rank others who live there by what village they live in. There also seems to be a trend where people move in to the lower-priced community area like Grogan's Mill and every few years after, leapfrog their way up into other communities a little bit more expensive. There may be pockets of communities within the Woodlands where there is a long-term sense of community and people have the neighbors for long periods of time, but I think this would be the exception, not the rule. Transience, not permanence, is common in many communities these days, and the Woodlands would seem to fit this trend just as well.

[bachanon]

internal "transience", as you call it pineda, is common in the woodlands. many people buy their first home here, move up to a larger residence with kids and then simplify when the kids are gone.

also, it is not the marketing machine (propaganda) of the woodlands development company so much as people relocating for jobs. if you meant marketing "america's hometown" to woo say, chicago, bridge and iron, and then those families relocating, i see your point. however, families from the east coast aren't moving here just because it looks like a great place to live.

[pineda]

also, it is not the marketing machine (propaganda) of the woodlands development company so much as people relocating for jobs. if you meant marketing "america's hometown" to woo say, chicago, bridge and iron, and then those families relocating, i see your point. however, families from the east coast aren't moving here just because it looks like a great place to live.

The marketing machine (propaganda) that pitches the Woodlands community/lifestyle to areas outside Texas is appealing to people who are unfamiliar with the Houston area or even Texas for that matter; those folks that may be re-locating here with jobs in the Houston area, not just jobs in the Woodlands area. Hence, the need for three big park-n-ride lots in the Woodlands area, to carry those folks to their jobs in the Houston area. Come to think of it, maybe the City of Houston should consider HIRING the folks who run the marketing plans for the Woodlands to run a campaign for the Houston area, to dispel the (real or perceived) negative images outsiders may have of Houston or Texas! "Houston, Texas' Hometown!"

[bachanon]

point taken. i forget to remove my rose-colored glasses sometimes.

[PureAuteur]

Bach, so true. If you like neighbor avoidance, you don't move to the Woodlands, you remain in Pure's old-capitalism areas. You may wave at your neighbors there, have few friends on the street, but you can basically live in anonimity if you wish.

I've never lived in a true suburb before, and it still amazes me that party invitations arrive on my door from people who live blocks over, that we've never met before. And if you have a party, you can't invite just friends because someone on the street that you know only casually, might get their feelings hurt. If you go on vacation, blocks know it and where you went, and are staying. If you have a cold and open the door for a package, you get a call asking if you need chicken soup. (Actually happened)

I was actually told one day that I must really not want to talk to anyone because when I pulled into my garage, I always closed the garage door behind me... I've lived in big cities my whole life, its kindof a security habit. And I'll admit, some days I do it on purpose when I see someone in the street I don't have the energy or time to talk to right that second. Maybe its just our area, but to a family that is used to moderate privacy, its a little bizarre.

I've learned to live with it, am not longer shocked by it. Yet I still find it weird to have neighbors, whom aren't close friends, so interested in us.

So yeah, I would never say that a move to the Woodlands was in pursuit of space from your neighbors.

Okay, now you have me drooling over this place even more. You know I'm all about the revival of civic life. I heard everyone was very neighborly, but I didn't realize it was like that. It may get to the point where I feel that enough is enough, and I would begin to distance myself from the neighbors if they got too intrusive or expected too much from me. As long as I'm afforded some degree of privacy, then I will warmly embrace this type of living.

I plan to get a condo or townhome or apartment when I first move to the Woodlands, so I'm not sure if this will have the same neighbor culture as living in a house in one of the villages.

[bachanon]

wherever you move, get involved. community events, volunteer opportunities, church and so on. i've found that outside of working locally, the majority of the churches have outreach programs for every age group and social persuasion. the larger churches have small group programs that make it easy to plug in to the community. some of the smaller churches have active congregations that are easy to get involved with.

a neighbor of mine recently lost his home to fire. everyone has offered help. although we don't socialize, he was visibly moved by the support of his neighbors. i see stories like this in the woodlands all the time.

recently, someone in the neighborhood set up a bbq at the end of one of the cul de sacs, had a live band (on a stage) and invited the whole neighborhood. it might have been a fund raiser, i don't know. people were there all afternoon. no complaints, no police. just clean, backyard fun at the end of a cul de sac with a great view of the golf course.

driving around the woodlands, you would never think that these things occur. they just happen. you have to live here to enjoy it.

[SpringTX]

the woodlands was created as an antidote to sprawl. from the beginning, it was developed to be a place for people to "live, work, shop and become involved in their community". in the book "the woodlands, the inside story of creating a better hometown", roger galatas describes george mitchell's concern with rapid, haphazard development. this was the 1960s.

the original concept was a new city, not a new development. the myriad neighborhood, social and church activities in the woodlands bring people together on a constant basis. we are in CLOSE proximity to our neighbors. we live on cul-de-sacs that have other cul-de-sacs. yes, you can be separate from your neighbor if you choose, but you'll have to go out of your way. if you attend church, have kids in school, attend social events, shop, eat out and especially if you work in the woodlands, you will constantly run in to your neighbors and friends and coworkers. many of the families who were here in "the beginning" were not from houston, they were from all over the country. families we knew moved here for new jobs at HARC and other research companies. yes, many people move here and commute; however, the culture (yes, culture) of the woodlands is unlike what many people would consider of a "bedroom community".

These are very good points.

While The Woodlands is known to be a very private and secluded-feeling kind of place, it's also (ironically) an extremely, extremely friendly place. It's kind of like the irony of the "word hard, play hard" concept.

In The Woodlands, a person might go for a week without even seeing any of his neighbors (because the forest everywhere), and then he decides to walk to the mailbox and he ends up bumping into a neighbor and talking for 30 minutes. Or longer. And he may not even see this neighbor again for a month.

When it comes to socializing with neighbors in The Woodlands, it's usually a private ordeal because of the trees everywhere. It can sometimes feel like a confessional. There's certainly nothing fake or "staged" about any neighborly interaction, because there's no one else to see you! And since there are no distractions to interrupt or cut it short, conversations naturally ramble on as long as they want. And since there is such privacy, all kinds of juicy gossip can be spread.

Neighbors in The Woodlands socialize when they feel like it, even if it's not that often. But when they do, they seem to pour it all out, completely unconsciously and naturally.

While there appear to be some folks who relish the solitude and don't want to know their neighbors, I think the opposite is true for many folks, just as KatieDidIt and Bachanon were describing. I think the peace and quiet and "distance" afforded by all the trees generates a desire in many folks to become outgoing and to reach out to their neighbors.

Outside of the individual subdivision, it's a different story. You really have to get active and get involved in the community if you want to connect with people outside of your subdivision, as Bachanon said.

[dfinke]

My favorite example of Woodlands neighborliness is the various communitywide festivals held throughout the year like the Waterway Arts Festival, Fourth of July parade or even Arbor Day. They're free so they're accessible to the whole community and you can't help but see dozens of your friends and neighbors while you're at them.

As for the whole Carlton Woods gated community deal...while I personally don't understand the need of a gated community deep in the interior of The Woodlands, I do have some friends who live there who are more down to Earth and level headed than other non-gated residents of The Woodlands. (For what it's worth.)

As of late I have noticed that, compared to the neighborhood sizes where I live in Cochran's Crossing, new neighborhoods in Sterling Ridge, especially in Terramont, seem to be rather small. I don't know if it's just that the Development Company is running out of land or if people are looking for a more intimate, close knit neighborhood experience. Has any one else noticed this or is it just me?

[TheNiche]

As of late I have noticed that, compared to the neighborhood sizes where I live in Cochran's Crossing, new neighborhoods in Sterling Ridge, especially in Terramont, seem to be rather small. I don't know if it's just that the Development Company is running out of land or if people are looking for a more intimate, close knit neighborhood experience. Has any one else noticed this or is it just me?

When you talk about a small community, do you mean fewer lots or smaller lot sizes?

...because the thing with lower lot sizes is a very widespread trend that is connected almost completely with the low interest rates of the last few years. It opened up homeownership to a whole new demographic of people...but rates have recently been trending upward and developers are starting to feel the squeeze.

[RedScare]

When you talk about a small community, do you mean fewer lots or smaller lot sizes?

...because the thing with lower lot sizes is a very widespread trend that is connected almost completely with the low interest rates of the last few years. It opened up homeownership to a whole new demographic of people...but rates have recently been trending upward and developers are starting to feel the squeeze.

That is not entirely correct with regard to the Woodlands. The lot sizes shrank to 55 feet in the standard neighborhoods (not including Creekside) several years ago, as the WDC tried to maximize income. A close relative of mine worked for a major homebuilder in the Woodlands for years. She often commented on the smaller lots with bigger houses. They were charging $65,000 for 55 foot lots 5 years ago. It may be higher now. This trend started when Crescent bought the Woodlands, and has continued with the new owners. Rising interest rates are a relatively new development. It will be interesting to see if it affects house size.

[TheNiche]

That is not entirely correct with regard to the Woodlands. The lot sizes shrank to 55 feet in the standard neighborhoods (not including Creekside) several years ago, as the WDC tried to maximize income. A close relative of mine worked for a major homebuilder in the Woodlands for years. She often commented on the smaller lots with bigger houses. They were charging $65,000 for 55 foot lots 5 years ago. It may be higher now. This trend started when Crescent bought the Woodlands, and has continued with the new owners. Rising interest rates are a relatively new development. It will be interesting to see if it affects house size.

Well I must admit that I'm not completely familiar with the specific history of The Woodlands. I know just enough to recognize that in many ways, it can be in kind of its own little world sometimes...and that what applies to Spring, suburban Katy, etc. doesn't necessarily apply in The Woodlands (or for that matter in many suburban municipalities).

But interest rates have been pretty low since 2001. That's about the same time that developers started putting up all these patio homes on 40- to 50-foot lots and really going full speed on everything small. If The Woodlands implemented this new policy after about 2001, you can bet that the interest rates had some part in the decision.

[KatieDidIt]

2 years ago it was 75-80,000 for a approx. 12,000 lot. I know they have gone up a litte, but the lots sizes are certainly getting smaller. Our builder says every year, the WDC gives them smaller and smaller lots to build on. Demand in huge and you can make more money if you can squeeze a few more homes in.

Terramont. To me the whole village really seems almost solely devoted to commercial at this point. Not sure what types of resdients it will have. Everything that is selling or sold on East Terramont claims to be Sterling Ridge. I have a feeling it will be apartments.

[PureAuteur]

sorry red, the spirit of the woodlands and how it grew are two different things.

the woodlands was created as an antidote to sprawl. from the beginning, it was developed to be a place for people to "live, work, shop and become involved in their community". in the book "the woodlands, the inside story of creating a better hometown", roger galatas describes george mitchell's concern with rapid, haphazard development. this was the 1960s.

the original concept was a new city, not a new development. the myriad neighborhood, social and church activities in the woodlands bring people together on a constant basis. we are in CLOSE proximity to our neighbors. we live on cul-de-sacs that have other cul-de-sacs. yes, you can be separate from your neighbor if you choose, but you'll have to go out of your way. if you attend church, have kids in school, attend social events, shop, eat out and especially if you work in the woodlands, you will constantly run in to your neighbors and friends and coworkers. many of the families who were here in "the beginning" were not from houston, they were from all over the country. families we knew moved here for new jobs at HARC and other research companies. yes, many people move here and commute; however, the culture (yes, culture) of the woodlands is unlike what many people would consider of a "bedroom community".

of course, that being said, the woodlands could not have survived without its proximity to houston. don't call it a "bedroom community" please.

is it not presumptive to say that people who moved here simply "wanted to escape close proximity to their neighbors"?

Did you read Galatas' book? I saw that it was available on amazon.com, but it was 32 dollars, which I thought was a bit much for a book. Is there anywhere else I could get it?

[bachanon]

yes, i have. i purchased it at borders for $35, i think.

the book details george mitchell's story, the HUD experience, land acquisition, planning and the environment...........and that's just part 1. it (the book) covers everything from the inception of interfaith, a commitment to public art to the sale of the woodlands and "lessons learned". if you like development or are intrigued by the woodlands, it's a must read.

[PureAuteur]

You said that you bought it at Borders. On a side note, if you are into cinema, I know for a fact they have a very good selection of films on DVD. The Criterion Collection has some of the best movies, so you can look for that label and know you're getting a good film.

[KatieDidIt]

The have copies right at the Barbara Mitchell Branch Library on Ashlane. Ironic that they put a library in her name in an area that which will have a Park-n-ride, a YMCA, a strip mall, a gas station and a Junior High School all in the same location.

Kids and Stressed out commuters don't mix.

[mrfootball]

How many people live in Carlton Woods? How many Homes? How many planned for the new Creekside development?

[TheNiche]

How many people live in Carlton Woods? How many Homes? How many planned for the new Creekside development?

I have a source on the matter. Carlton Woods has many subdivisions within it, Creekside among them. In total:

Carlton Woods has 17 subdivisions with 132 occupied homes, 73 homes under construction or completed and vacant, and 404 vacant developed lots. About 365 more lots are planned. At buildout (a ways off), it'll have 974 homes. If you assume an average of 2.5 people per household, then population is 330.

Creekside Village is apparently the least expensive of these, but has only recently begun development. At buildout, it'll have 359 lots (makes up more than a third of CW).