HISD Threatens To Close Down Poor-Performing Schools

[VicMan]

The Houston ISD administration threatened to close Kashmere High School, Sam Houston High School, and McReynolds Middle School for continually getting "Unacceptable" ratings from the Texas Education Agency.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/4089763.html

Here is a Wikipedia article on Kashmere - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmere_High_School - Kashmere had Jay-Z as principal for a day.

[uncertaintraveler]

Can someone explain to me how shutting down poor-performing schools makes sense?

Where are all the students of the closed schools going to go? Presumably to a different school, but won't that just increase a school's "density," cause overcrowding, and lower the teacher-student ratio? And won't it also increase the student's commute times so that they have to get up even earlier to catch the bus....presumably causing them to be even more likely to fall asleep in class, and consequently, fail the test....ultimately resulting in their new school being closed down as well? Anyone see a strange catch-22 pattern here?

[KatieDidIt]

I think the TAKS test and the rating system is causing the demise of public education. There is too much time and fear invested in it.

[sevfiv]

But some leaders argued today that Kashmere's low scores are symptomatic of the lack of funding, resources and attention given to schools in northeast Houston. HISD administrators are shirking their responsibility by threatening to close the struggling campuses, they said.

poor kids - just getting tossed around because of some bureaucratic bs

it also mentions that the schools that would be taking in the kids (Jordan and Wheatley high schools) are also rated "unacceptable."

[musicman]

Can someone explain to me how shutting down poor-performing schools makes sense?

Where are all the students of the closed schools going to go? Presumably to a different school, but won't that just increase a school's "density," cause overcrowding, and lower the teacher-student ratio? And won't it also increase the student's commute times so that they have to get up even earlier to catch the bus....presumably causing them to be even more likely to fall asleep in class, and consequently, fail the test....ultimately resulting in their new school being closed down as well? Anyone see a strange catch-22 pattern here?

Well for one we need better teachers. The quality of teachers has gone down considerably since the 70s. To compound the problem, the students no longer have respect for teachers either.

Unfortunately, many parents don't care and neither do many students.

Student teacher ratio isn't really an issue IMO. I remember in 2nd grade we had 42 at one point during the school yr and our scores were higher than the averages are now. I think this is used as an excuse by school districts so they can request more money from taxpayers.

[Guest danax]

Well for one we need better teachers. The quality of teachers has gone down considerably since the 70s. To compound the problem, the students no longer have respect for teachers either.

Unfortunately, many parents don't care and neither do many students.

Student teacher ratio isn't really an issue IMO. I remember in 2nd grade we had 42 at one point during the school yr and our scores were higher than the averages are now. I think this is used as an excuse by school districts so they can request more money from taxpayers.

I don't think lack of funds are much to blame either. Maybe someone can point to a study showing otherwise, and there's got to be several out there since this is the reason so often cited by some who don't want to blame the parents and children themselves. Abe Lincoln didn't have a laptop, as far as I know. Neither did I or all the rest when I was in school (no, I didn't have to walk 5 miles in the snow to get there). Classes were large and teachers were probably not much different than now, and their salaries were probably no different in time-inflated dollars than now.

Black, brown or white, education is just not a priority in these low-income areas. It's a social problem, not a funding problem. The entire neighborhood around those schools is "unacceptable".

It's the people, people.

[RedScare]

I don't think lack of funds are much to blame either. Maybe someone can point to a study showing otherwise, and there's got to be several out there since this is the reason so often cited by some who don't want to blame the parents and children themselves. Abe Lincoln didn't have a laptop, as far as I know. Neither did I or all the rest when I was in school (no, I didn't have to walk 5 miles in the snow to get there). Classes were large and teachers were probably not much different than now, and their salaries were probably no different in time-inflated dollars than now.

Black, brown or white, education is just not a priority in these low-income areas. It's a social problem, not a funding problem. The entire neighborhood around those schools is "unaccaptable".

It's the people, people.

Here's an article that pretty forcefully states that class size unequivocally affects learning, even throughout high school.

http://www.buffalo.edu/reporter/vol32/vol32n33/n8.html

However, I believe your second point is more important than the first one. In poor neighborhoods, the learning environment is horrible, if it exists at all. Parents work long hours to put food on the table, assuming both parents are even in the home. Often, the parents are uneducated themselves, and either do not appreciate the value of education, or cannot help the child. If we believe that uneducated children grow up to be ALL of society's problem, it is imperative to break that cycle. Toward that goal, test like TAAS or TAKS do not help. Recognizing that a different approach is required in "education indifferent" areas WILL help.

If that means small class sizes, so be it. If it means after-school tutoring and activities, set it up. If it involves assigning mentors to make sure kids stay in school, sign 'em up. But, threatening to shut the school or take away their money does not help. Remember, we're talking about a neighborhood that does not care ENOUGH about education. Taking it away, or making it harder to achieve won't fix it.

Will it cost more to do this? Sure it will. But, consider that the overwhelming majority of prisoners are uneducated. Consider further, that we spend up to $50,000 per year to house them. It's a whole lot cheaper to deal with them in after-school programs than as adult criminals.

[KinkaidAlum]

Well, quite a few people think that the TAKS and other testing systems around the country are doing EXACTLY what the conservatives who pushed them wanted; slowly demolishing the public school system.

We've already privatized prisons in Texas. Schools will eventually happen so somebody who donates cash to the POLS can make some $$$$.

[musicman]

Here's an article that pretty forcefully states that class size unequivocally affects learning, even throughout high school.

http://www.buffalo.edu/reporter/vol32/vol32n33/n8.html

I read it a little differently. it says "even a few early years of study in a small class of 13-17 peers will enhance a student's academic achievement all the way through high school. "

I just says a FEW early years of small classes...not small classes in general.

[Heights2Bastrop]

We don't need better teachers. We need better parents!

[RedScare]

I read it a little differently. it says "even a few early years of study in a small class of 13-17 peers will enhance a student's academic achievement all the way through high school. "

I just says a FEW early years of small classes...not small classes in general.

You're right. I guess all those big classes I was in affected my reading comprehension.

My point is the same. Do what needs to be done. Get rid of the tests. They are not there to help. They are there to punish.

Even though H2B is correct, don't punish the kids for having bad parents. Help them succeed in spite of the parents. This is what the successful private schools do. We should allow (demand?) the public schools in poor neighborhoods to do the same. The taxpayers should be demanding it. The cost to us for failed schools is astronomical.

The reason I only said poor neighborhoods is because the kids in wealthier neighborhoods largely succeed. The societal problems come mainly from uneducated poor youth, who produce a large percentage of uneducated, poor criminals. Giving them hope through education gives them a chance to avoid the fate of the parents. Bleeding hearts believe we should do this out of concern for our children. Hard hearts should demand it because it is more economical.

[MexAmerican_Moose]

We don't need better teachers. We need better parents!

and enthusiastic students that want to learn...

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

How much money will be saved by closing these schools? Will the school tax rate be lowered? What the hell is being done to improve the eduation and retention of said education of these kids? Something positive should and needs to occur to help under performing kids, they ARE OUR FUTURE!!!! To damn these under performing kids is to damn ourselves. I agree that the parents MUST play a larger role in the school lives of thier kids. Teachers cannot do it alone, although the teachers should be more than capable of towing the line when educating Americas kids. After all, the teachers and the school systems see our kids for more hours than the parents do.

On the issue of poor kids..........while collecting rents for my grand parents in 3rd ward, i stopped by the Project Row House. They have a program in place to help tutor kids after school and provide a nice and relaxed environment that helps with development. It helps kids that otherwise would not have the parent or parents around immediately after school hours. Things like this should be occurring all throughtout our city and our Nation.

The simple fact of the matter is, we can either deal with the kids, while they are kids, or deal with them later when they become adults. Im sure that when they become adults, they majority of them will seek a life thats not too savory for its something that they may feel they are able to grasp right away for whatever reasons. I would rather catch them as kids and get them steered onto the proper path to success without taking a dip into the criminal world.

[KinkaidAlum]

Project Row Houses is nothing short of amazing. What a beautiful place.

Teachers get a bum rap. Gone are the days of teaching art, music, drama, poetry, critical thinking, debate, etc... Now, it's just teaching kids how to either take the TAKS or how to beat the system by teaching them test-taking skills. The kids are bored. The teachers are bored. The whole thing is a sham.

[KatieDidIt]

I went through Elementary schools in NC, which had and I think still does have a great school system. I remember auditors randomly coming into the classes and observing and grading the TEACHERS.

Wouldn't it be great to re-employ that concept. Test the schools and teachers on how well they are instructing, and on how their students are testing on the grade appropriate curriculum.

I know of second graders that are scared of third grade because of the TAKS. I can't believe they even know what that is! They have heard it affects if they go on to fourth or not...no matter what their grades are. OR that's what the kids are led to believe.

[musicman]

I went through Elementary schools in NC, which had and I think still does have a great school system. I remember auditors randomly coming into the classes and observing and grading the TEACHERS.

They did that here as well in the 70's

[KatieDidIt]

Kinkaid, I will have to say the big different between HISD and CISD is the art. My son is taught about the masters and contemporary artists and they create pictures using that technique. Its rotates with music class every 6 weeks. We NEVER had music at Briargrove Elem. HISD had "crafts" every 7 school days. They also get PE daily up here, which HISD had every 7 school days.. HISD gotta love them; Give the kids free breakfast because their parents can't shake a cereal box, but lets not make them run or do anything active.

But they all test for TAKS and that coveted rating.

They did that here as well in the 70's

Well, I think they need to bring that back. I think it makes the school work for the kids, not for the school district.

[VicMan]

Kinkaid, I will have to say the big different between HISD and CISD is the art. My son is taught about the masters and contemporary artists and they create pictures using that technique. Its rotates with music class every 6 weeks. We NEVER had music at Briargrove Elem. HISD had "crafts" every 7 school days. They also get PE daily up here, which HISD had every 7 school days.. HISD gotta love them; Give the kids free breakfast because their parents can't shake a cereal box, but lets not make them run or do anything active.

But they all test for TAKS and that coveted rating.

Well, I think they need to bring that back. I think it makes the school work for the kids, not for the school district.

In my opinion - closing Sam Houston is not feasible. It has over 2,000 kids. Where the hell are they gonna go? I think HISD's closing threat is toothless here.

On the other hand, Kashmere has less than 500 (nearby Wheatley is getting a large, brand new campus), so closing it is possible.

"We NEVER had music at Briargrove Elem. HISD had "crafts" every 7 school days."

At HISD it depends on the school...

At River Oaks we had a different elective each week (I can't remember the frequency of electives per week - I remember it as two a week) - Art, Science, Spanish, Music, and P.E. were the electives. (EDIT: River Oaks still has the five electives http://es.houstonisd.org/riveroakses/faculty&staff.htm) - When I was still at ROE, space was getting short, so PE and Music shared a room, with two classes in one room at a time.

And at River Oaks the teachers made the kids walk or run one lap around the track before going to recess.

Katie, homeowners count on schools doing well on the TAKS too. If a school gets unacceptable, the property values plummet. The TAKS thing would be the state of Texas' fault, not HISD's.

Also, since Katie left HISD, Briargrove is getting a brand new campus - It currently is in the St. George campus and will move out when the new Briargrove is done (see http://www.bgroadrunners.org/New-School.cfm ). I don't know if this means Briargrove will get music again. I do not know how much Briargrove's program changed since Katie left.

Also, Briargrove needs a staff list on its website. I will e-mail the webmaster and tell him or her that he or she needs to post a list of people who teach at Briargrove.

I have one last question for Katie. Katie, did you try to make changes at Briargrove before leaving HISD? IMO before leaving every parent who wishes to leave, unless the situation is severely deteroriating, should try to make changes first.

EDIT: It looks like music is back at Briargrove, Katie - See http://www.greatschools.net/modperl/parents/tx/3359 (A September 2005 parent review on Greatschools gushed over the music program)

Also Briargrove is hosting an educational fair - http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/mem...ws/4088424.html - teachers from Briargrove, T.H. Rogers, and Dickinson and Brazosport ISDs are going. Maybe the school is making a comeback.

See, now that Houston ISD is a Robin Hood donor, money is not a problem anymore! Even so, many of the HISD schools in the east, south, far southwest (e.g. Westbury High), north, and northeast sides still have problems. Among them are the three threatened with closure. Again, it would be dumb to close Sam, but closing Kashmere is a possibility.

Edited August 7, 2006 by VicMan

[jmancuso]

I think the TAKS test and the rating system is causing the demise of public education. There is too much time and fear invested in it.

yep. teachers arnt being teachers but rather test administrators.

[KatieDidIt]

Vic, Briargrove was probably the one of the best Elem. schools HISD had to offer. ANn Sledge was a great principlal and the PTO was fabulous. But when the HISD budget is not there to have daily PE and daily enrichment, there is only so much you can do. They clearly taught for the TAKS test, it was obvious on a daily basis. And yes, the clock was ticking for my kids and I wanted them to have the extra's that would take years for HISD to even attempt to find the funds for.

You know its all personal opinion and perception. I know you are a big cheerleader for HISD, but if someone sees a public education that is better for their family elsewhere and can move, then they do it. It takes time to change things, and most parents don't want to waste their kid's educational time fighting a school district, therefore they move. When you become a parent of a school aged child, you will understand that you MUST provide the best you can and time is an issue. For a majority of our friends, and fellow PTOers at Briargrove, HISD ended at 5th grade for them. Several families I knew from Briargrove are now living in The Woodlands. I am surprised almost monthly when I bump into familiar faces. BUT, if you finacially can't move..sure stay and fight, because you must.

I knew of the Briargrove school rebuild, this is why we left along with a large group of families. And no, I didn't want our kids to be moved from one school to another and back again, and then within half a year one going to Grady .... It was going to be a private school or move. This is why the majority of Brairgrove families go into private in 6th grade or, kill themselves to get into a house in SBISD. When Grady was a neighborhood school, the families stayed. Rezoning killed Grady.

Edit for comment: And at River Oaks the teachers made the kids walk or run one lap around the track before going to recess.

One lap? Have you seen the size of children these days? They need organized excercise DAILY for at least 20 minutes. Its good for the brain as well as the body to MOVE during the school day. Punishment at Briargrove was to take away recess.which made the child more hyper, which caused them to act up more, which caused them to lose more recess.

Why mess around with your children's lives when you can move into schools that have all the enrichment in place with scores of 98% ( i hate the tests, but they do help making this point) or better. And the education and social situation is far better all the way through High School for all types of students, not just the super smart set.

Remember, different things work for different families.

Edited August 7, 2006 by KatieDidIt

[bachanon]

it seems that teachers and school districts are focusing on TAKS preparation because they are not confident that their students are learning the basic principles necessary to pass the TAKS based on their current curriculum. the school curriculum should suffice for TAKS preparation. if a school really wants to know how well it's doing, they shouldn't prepare for the TAKS.

my nephew's eighth grade math teacher had students writing about "who they were" in MATH class. when it came close to TAKS time, she went crazy cramming them with pre-algebra concepts that would specifically be on the TAKS test. his english teacher the same year, crammed them with vocab right before TAKS. a school's core curriculum should be sufficient for success with TAKS. spending a week or two prepping students for the oh-so-horrible TAKS defeats the purpose.

on another note, the number of students in a classroom is less significant with individualized learning curricula. poor, overcrowded school districts would do better to adopt non-traditional classroom settings, at least as an option. IMO

[VicMan]

"my nephew's eighth grade math teacher had students writing about "who they were" in MATH class. when it came close to TAKS time, she went crazy cramming them with pre-algebra concepts that would specifically be on the TAKS test. his english teacher the same year, crammed them with vocab right before TAKS. a school's core curriculum should be sufficient for success with TAKS. spending a week or two prepping students for the oh-so-horrible TAKS defeats the purpose."

What school is this? Most importantly, what kind of math class is that? (All of the classes I had in elementary, middle, and high school were real math classes)

"on another note, the number of students in a classroom is less significant with individualized learning curricula. poor, overcrowded school districts would do better to adopt non-traditional classroom settings, at least as an option. IMO"

In some New York City high schools kids stay in the classroom all day. And, yes, I agree that more schools with nontraditional settings and concepts need to be established.

"Edit for comment: And at River Oaks the teachers made the kids walk or run one lap around the track before going to recess.

One lap? Have you seen the size of children these days? They need organized excercise DAILY for at least 20 minutes. Its good for the brain as well as the body to MOVE during the school day. Punishment at Briargrove was to take away recess.which made the child more hyper, which caused them to act up more, which caused them to lose more recess."

Well, it might have been multiple laps for upper grades, as I remember running/walking more as I advanced to grade 5. - The track was, I think, a mile long.

At the private school I used to attend the teachers also used take away recess as punishment. Now that obesity is a problem in the U.S., it seems like someone will have to come up with a new punishment.

"I know you are a big cheerleader for HISD, but if someone sees a public education that is better elsewhere and can move, then they do it."

Yeah, I'm aware that happens. IMO, though, too much of it can ruin schools; that's what happens to some older suburbs. I can perfectly understand, though, if the school suddenly becomes very violent.

Also, though, I think changes like adding more music classes, etc. ought to come quicker than they have in the past.

Also, now that you mentioned the move as a reason, I understand why you chose to do that. I remember when Mark Twain was holed up in a series of T-buildings after the old campus was demolished. Some parents are not willing to have their children in a school made up of T-buildings. Now, though, the new campus (with a statue of Mark Twain on a bench) is here. In fact, I may post the Wikipedia photos that I took on here.

"For a majority of our friends, and fellow PTOers at Briargrove, HISD ended at 5th grade for them. Several families I knew from Briargrove are now living in The Woodlands. I am surprised almost monthly when I bump into familiar faces. BUT, if you finacially can't move..sure stay and fight, because you must."

I know there's a minority who go to Grady (the other Briargrove-area poster also admits it has overcrowding problems) - One girl from a Testmaster SAT prep course I attended lives in the Briargrove area. She went to Briargrove ES, then to Grady MS (and she loved it) - But she knew Lee "wasn't going to do it" for her; she goes to Bellaire High.

Also, HISD absolutely understands about how zoning can "kill" schools now - They rezoned some apartment complexes away from Briargrove into Pilgrim.

EDIT: Hey, Katie. Do you wish to look at and edit the Briargrove article on Wikipedia?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briargrove%2C_Houston%2C_Texas

You can add additional info to it if you wish to

Edited August 7, 2006 by VicMan

[VicMan]

By the way, here's an article from a teacher who taught in a poor, inner city middle school in Los Angeles: http://www.rjgeib.com/biography/inner-city...s/innerblu.html

This should show some insight into the challenges of teaching in a poor inner city school.

[VicMan]

Update: All of the HISD schools rated unacceptable, except for Jordan and Carter Career Center, remain unacceptable according to the TEA http://www.houstonisd.org/HISD/portal/arti...9646000,00.html