Plus Sizes Inflight

[Guest Plastic]

Many people fly coach or 3rd class on most airplanes. Seats in coach are designed for average sized people and 1st class are larger. It seeems they didn't make the seats in 2rd class with large people in mind.

I want to know will they give a discount so that large sized people don't have to pay full price to get into a seat. SInce seats were meant to safely handle, accomodate, and comfort moderate sized people l bigger people shouldn't have to pay as much since their comfort wasn't put in mind when airplanes were designed.

What I's saying is charge large people less for coach and 3rd class prices for 1st class. That would be like 3rd class to larger people

[HoustonMidtown]

Many people fly coach or 3rd class on most airplanes. Seats in coach are designed for average sized people and 1st class are larger. It seeems they didn't make the seats in 2rd class with large people in mind.

I want to know will they give a discount so that large sized people don't have to pay full price to get into a seat. SInce seats were meant to safely handle, accomodate, and comfort moderate sized people l bigger people shouldn't have to pay as much since their comfort wasn't put in mind when airplanes were designed.

What I's saying is charge large people less for coach and 3rd class prices for 1st class. That would be like 3rd class to larger people

Oh this one is going to have some good discussion!!!

This is going to be un-PC....but....

I don't think that will happen - why should they be charged less? What about the person that sits beside them that only gets half of their seat because the large person beside them is half in their seat (this has happened to me before)....should that person be charged less because they aren't comfortable also?

Edited July 29, 2006 by u080570

[gwilson]

I'm large folk myself, and I can tell you flying is dreadful for me. The width of the seats is definitely an issue but so is the leg room. Not only do I have to cram myself in to a seat that my butt doesn't fit in and my shoulders (which are very broad and not because Im fat) invade the space of the person sitting next to me, but my knees are them crammed in to the seat in front of me. My "average" sized friends aren't even comfortable in coach. First class is far more comfortable, primarily because of the leg room. The extra ass and shoulder room helps too.

[editor]

It depends on the airline more than anything.

I'm 6'2", about 300 pounds.

Coach on JAL from Chicago to Tokyo fits fine.

Coach on United from Chicago to Tokyo is agony.

Coach on Air France from Houston to Pairs is fine.

Coach on Continental from Houston to Pairs is tight.

Coach on Cathay Pacific from Hong Kong to Shanghai is great.

Coach of DragonAir from Hong Kong to pretty much anywhere is dreadful.

Coach on Austrian airlines anywhere is roomy for me.

And Southwest flights aren't bad, either. I took my first one a couple of weeks ago (MDW-TPA) and I was really surprised that even with a completely full plane it wasn't that bad.

But AirTran is only bearable in business class (and here's a tip -- save yourself $200 by upgrading from coach to business at the airport on AirTran, instead of booking business from the outset).

[Talbot]

I don't think they should be charged a discount unless everyone is getting a discount.

[sevfiv]

these days, even reclining your seat can be a nightmare for the person behind you (no matter who it is) on the "now-more-cramped-so-we-can-cram-more-people-and-get-ourselves-out-of-our-financial-mess" airlines.

i opt to drive everywhere these days if i can help it (unless it involves crossing a large mass of water)

[TJones]

If the person who is unfortunate enough to have to sit by me has a gripe. I just give him an elbow to the chin, and he gets to sleep his way into Atlanta. I haven't run into this problem thus far, It is usually my wife and I flying, and if we are not flying first class, I will ask for the exit row. Little secret, twice as much legroom in the exit aisle. The check-in ladies know I shouldn't have any problem opening the door, my wife may have a problem with me running her over to get to the door though. I do feel for these folks though. I am 6'4" and about 320lbs. I still don't need the extend-a-strap, but like someone else said, my shoulders take up 2 seats easy. What I can't stand are the people who will lay their seats back for a 45 minute flight to New Orleans.

Edited July 29, 2006 by TJones

[Guest Plastic]

It depends on the airline more than anything.

I'm 6'2", about 300 pounds.

Coach on JAL from Chicago to Tokyo fits fine.

Coach on United from Chicago to Tokyo is agony.

Coach on Air France from Houston to Pairs is fine.

Coach on Continental from Houston to Pairs is tight.

Coach on Cathay Pacific from Hong Kong to Shanghai is great.

Coach of DragonAir from Hong Kong to pretty much anywhere is dreadful.

Coach on Austrian airlines anywhere is roomy for me.

And Southwest flights aren't bad, either. I took my first one a couple of weeks ago (MDW-TPA) and I was really surprised that even with a completely full plane it wasn't that bad.

But AirTran is only bearable in business class (and here's a tip -- save yourself $200 by upgrading from coach to business at the airport on AirTran, instead of booking business from the outset).

It seems liek all the uncomfortable ones ar eamerican.

[MidtownCoog]

Southwest Airlines' Contract of Carriage refers to them as "Customers of Size".

I like that.

[editor]

It seems liek all the uncomfortable ones ar eamerican.

Mostly. Though Spirit and Midwest are both fantastic for larger people, and they're American airlines.

But your observation is mostly correct. Since the American airline industry is largely deregulated, there airlines need to cram more people into more flights. Most foreign airlines, especially flag carriers, don't have the same pressures and can charge a lot more than airlines that have to exist in a competitive market.

Now, that's not to say that there aren't other places that are in the same situation as the United States. Britain is just like here, and Germany and Russia are headed this way. Asia is just starting to wake up to the notion of a deregulated marketplace, but they have serious safety issues to overcome first. (If you've never seen a stewardess standing, smoking, and eating a sandwich while a jet is touching down, it's quite disturbing from an American perspective.)

[TJones]

Mostly. Though Spirit and Midwest are both fantastic for larger people, and they're American airlines.

But your observation is mostly correct. Since the American airline industry is largely deregulated, there airlines need to cram more people into more flights. Most foreign airlines, especially flag carriers, don't have the same pressures and can charge a lot more than airlines that have to exist in a competitive market.

Now, that's not to say that there aren't other places that are in the same situation as the United States. Britain is just like here, and Germany and Russia are headed this way. Asia is just starting to wake up to the notion of a deregulated marketplace, but they have serious safety issues to overcome first. (If you've never seen a stewardess standing, smoking, and eating a sandwich while a jet is touching down, it's quite disturbing from an American perspective.)

Best trip ever was on Delta airlines from Houston to Atlanta to LAX to Maui. My aunt was an attendant for 31 years with them. My wife and I were getting married, and "special" arrangements were made. FIRST CLASS all the way to Hawaii, for $159 roundtrip. This was in August too. I already gave my demensions in an earlier post, and my wife is 5'10" about 160 to 170 (wife punches TJ, *ouch*), we aren't small people. Very very comfortable flights.

Edited July 29, 2006 by TJones

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Best trip ever was on Delta airlines from Houston to Atlanta to LAX to Maui. My aunt was an attendant for 31 years with them. My wife and I were getting married, and "special" arrangements were made. FIRST CLASS all the way to Hawaii, for $159 roundtrip. This was in August too. I already gave my demensions in an earlier post, and my wife is 5'10" about 160 to 170 (wife punches TJ, *ouch*), we aren't small people. Very very comfortable flights.

Oh no, not Delta Airlines? My dad is a retired pilot from them Retired on the L-1011-500. Spent many times non rev-ing on them over the years when i was in school

On the seat thing...the space in coach kinda sucks on some carriers, but i dont think there should be a discount for oversized travelers. Fortunately, my non-reving days are over and usually get a first class seat either purchased by my company or obtained through freq. flyer miles. An incident occured a few years ago while onboard a US Air flight. There was a large man, really large, that thought he should be upgraded to the only empty seat in first class because he was too large to sit at the bulkhead. The flight attendant was going to do it until myself and about 5 other first class passengers raised hell. We paid to sit there and so should he! Im not a large man and not a small man either. Im currently 6'1" 243 lbs. and i dont expect to be upgraded because of my size or to have a discounted ticket either. For those who served in the "silent service", you know that due to my height, i was most uncomfortable onboard the boats

[editor]

I've only flown first class once -- Chicago to Minneapolis on United. What a disappointment. I assume it was because it's a short flight (about 45 minutes), but there were no extra ammenities, no extra service, and hardly any extra room. I'm glad it was only a $27 upgrade.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

I've only flown first class once -- Chicago to Minneapolis on United. What a disappointment. I assume it was because it's a short flight (about 45 minutes), but there were no extra ammenities, no extra service, and hardly any extra room. I'm glad it was only a $27 upgrade.

Short haul domestic first class is not really worth the expense, although Continental Airlines has a superior product in all stage lengths of flight, in first class. 95% of my flight time is 8-12+ hours internationally, so it is most worth the extra cost

How was the Southwest experience over all? Would you use them again?

[Guest Plastic]

Yeah, and COnntinental charges you $400 extra for that.

[editor]

Short haul domestic first class is not really worth the expense, although Continental Airlines has a superior product in all stage lengths of flight, in first class. 95% of my flight time is 8-12+ hours internationally, so it is most worth the extra cost

How was the Southwest experience over all? Would you use them again?

Overall, it wasn't bad. I might use them again if there were no other reasonably priced options.

I'd rather spend an extra $50 and have an assigned seat. It's not just the uncertainty of whether I'll get window or aisle (I prefer window), but it's the standing and waiting in those lines. The airport is usually where I'm at my most productive, either working on my laptop preparing for what lies ahead, or resting to prepare for what lies ahead. Standing in a Soviet bread line allows for neither of those possibilities. As a paying customer I feel that I deserve more respect than that.

Fortunately, I've heard that Southwest is experimenting with assigned seating on flights out of San Deigo. Maybe it will spread.

The overall Southwest experience was surprisingly good. But the seating thing is a dealbreaker. I could probably get over it if Southwest had the on-time reliability of American or United or even Northwest. But Southwest's schedule is overly ambitious. They're closer to AirTran or the (recently departed) Independence Air in terms of reliability -- and that's not a good thing.

[dbigtex56]

I don't see why the obese should be rewarded with free or discounted upgrades to first class. What seems fair is to replace a couple of the three-seat rows in couch with two extra-wide seats to accommodate those who need the extra room, at a slightly higher charge. If they can afford to supersize at McDonald's, they can afford to supersize on an airplane.

And this should not be done strictly on a voluntary basis. Passengers should be required to pass through a actual gate prior to boarding which is the same width as the standard seat can reasonably be expected to serve. If they can't squeeze through, they must upgrade. It's the same principle as the "You must be this tall to ride" signs at amusement parks.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

"Plus sizes in flight / Afternoon delight..."

Starland Vocal Band still around?

I don't see why the obese should be rewarded with free or discounted upgrades to first class. What seems fair is to replace a couple of the three-seat rows in couch with two extra-wide seats to accommodate those who need the extra room, at a slightly higher charge. If they can afford to supersize at McDonald's, they can afford to supersize on an airplane.

And this should not be done strictly on a voluntary basis. Passengers should be required to pass through a actual gate prior to boarding which is the same width as the standard seat can reasonably be expected to serve. If they can't squeeze through, they must upgrade. It's the same principle as the "You must be this tall to ride" signs at amusement parks.

Isnt Southwest Airlines trying something along these lines with the seat width requirement or something like that?

[KatieDidIt]

We recently flew an 8 hour flight. My husband and I are pretty small and we barely had room on either side. His shoulders came over into my seat, but it wasn't a big deal because I liked him that day.

On the flight home the plane was full, no upgrades available, we couldn't sit together and I sat in a row with an overweight couple. Fortunately I was on the aisle otherwise I would have gotten off the plane. The woman fit in her seat, but her shoulders and arms came half way into my seat. When the food service came her arms were on my table, she knockied a drink over in my lap that was on my table, and everytime she worked her seatbelt she elbowed me. I am sure it was an uncomfortable flight for her, but I gave up half my seat and was smashed against a strangers bare arm for 8 hours, my back went out from the angle I sat at.... yet paid full price.

So yeah, I think either the seats need to get bigger or bigger people need to book two seats.

Edited July 30, 2006 by KatieDidIt

[ssullivan]

I'm on at least two flights a week, and some weeks, like this one, I'll be on six flights in just over 24 hours! I'm 6'5", about 260 (and losing every day thanks to my diet ). I can fit into a standard coach seat, but my knees are always jammed into the back of the seat in front of me. Width wise, the main issue on some aircraft types is that my shoulders are broad enough to slightly invade the space of the person next to me. Fortunately when I'm in coach I get the exit row seats about 95% fo the time, and if not that, a bulkhead. I've only had five or six flights this year, out of 75, where I was really uncomfortable, and most of those were flights less than 60 minutes in length. I almost exclusively fly Continental, and get upgraded to first class for free on more than 60% of my flights operated on equipment with a first class section. I've never been on a flight over four hours in the air that I was not in domestic first or international business class. Occassionally I do shell out the money to sit up front on personal tickets; in September I'm flying to Paris for vacation on a paid BusinessFirst ticket. It wasn't cheap, but it was greatly discounted off the regular price when I bought it, and it came from part of my annual bonus. For work travel, we can only buy coach. If it wasn't for the elite upgrades and elite access to the exit row and bulkhead seats on Continental, there would be no way I could stand to fly as much as I do.

Personally I do not believe there should be a discount for passengers who can't fit into their seat. That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I'm personally in favor of policies like Southwest's, where a passenger who can not fit in a seat with both armrests all the way down must buy a second seat. More than once I have had to suffer through being crammed into an already tight coach seat up against someone who was so wide, he/she could not lower the armrest and invaded more than 25% of my seat. Nobody should have to suffer through that. Yes, I do feel compassion and sympathy for those who are morbidly obese, but I do not find such a policy discriminatory. If I was that large, I would voluntarily purchase an extra seat on just about every flight, unless I could see that it was going to be very empty, just because I would not want to inconvenience another passenger. And for the passenger of size, having two seats has to make him/her far more comfortable than being crammed up against another person.

It would be wonderful if the airline industry would increase the seat pitch. However, almost every effort at increasing seat pitch beyond 32" has failed because passengers simply aren't willing to pay the price for the increased space. American's More Room Throughout Coach failed, largely because the increased prices American charged to make up for the loss of available seats led to increased losses, because passengers deflected to airlines with less leg room charging a cheaper price. As long as most passengers book tickets based on price alone, you can expect to see the current 31-32" seat pitch on almost all airlines in the US. Yes, there are a few, like Midwest and Jet Blue, that have more room. But these are usually smaller carriers with very limited route networks, not large carriers that can get you anywhere in the world you need to go.

[ssullivan]

I'd rather spend an extra $50 and have an assigned seat. It's not just the uncertainty of whether I'll get window or aisle (I prefer window), but it's the standing and waiting in those lines. The airport is usually where I'm at my most productive, either working on my laptop preparing for what lies ahead, or resting to prepare for what lies ahead. Standing in a Soviet bread line allows for neither of those possibilities. As a paying customer I feel that I deserve more respect than that.

Fortunately, I've heard that Southwest is experimenting with assigned seating on flights out of San Deigo. Maybe it will spread.

The overall Southwest experience was surprisingly good. But the seating thing is a dealbreaker. I could probably get over it if Southwest had the on-time reliability of American or United or even Northwest. But Southwest's schedule is overly ambitious. They're closer to AirTran or the (recently departed) Independence Air in terms of reliability -- and that's not a good thing.

I'm with you on all those points, editor. That's why I refuse to fly Southwest. Period. They often aren't the cheapest, or are no cheaper than the competition. The open seating garbage seems to be fine with most of the hardcore Southwest fans, but I'm not one of them. I like being able to confirm my seat assignment when I buy my ticket. I like being able to show up at the gate right before boarding starts and know I'm going to be sitting where I want to. And don't get me started on some of the passengers I've seen on Southwest carrying half their worldly possessions in grocery store bags...

Regarding their experiment in assigned seating -- early reports were that it was not going well, but this was mostly from the way Southwest was handling it. They were randomly assigning passengers to seats, without letting passengers chose their seats. Passengers also really couldn't switch a seat once it was assigned. This is the total opposite of almost every other airline in the US, which gives passengers control over picking seats through their website and check-in kiosks. The way Southwest handled assigned seating on the first few flights resulted in a lot of people not even getting basic preferences, such as window or aisle, and in some families and parties traveling together being split apart. I don't know if they've improved on these issues or not, but there were a lot of unhappy people on the first few flights. It almost looked like the experiment was designed to be a failure.

The one thing I give Southwest is that they don't overpromise. You get exactly what they promise you. Some of their competitors having alienated a lot of frequent business travelers by overpromising and underdelivering their services.

But for me I'd still rather fly a full-service carrier with worldwide service, assigned seats, first class upgrades, and other amenities like private lounges and in-flight entertainment.

[nmainguy]

I don't see why the obese should be rewarded with free or discounted upgrades to first class.

Not all large people are obese.

And this should not be done strictly on a voluntary basis. Passengers should be required to pass through a actual gate prior to boarding which is the same width as the standard seat can reasonably be expected to serve. If they can't squeeze through, they must upgrade.

Nothing like a little public humiliation to but those big people in their places. Take THAT!

Will they be required to submit to a BMI as well?

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

But for me I'd still rather fly a full-service carrier with worldwide service, assigned seats, first class upgrades, and other amenities like private lounges and in-flight entertainment.

I agree 110%. Most of my flights are on Continental, United, Lufthansa, British Airways and US Airways. All full service carriers with first class and dedicated lines for frequent travelers and first/business class travelers. Also the great benefit of global airline alliances. I have many points in Star Alliance-One World and Sky Team.

No special treatment for people that are obese and too cheap to purchase the extra seat.

[Jeebus]

Nmainguy - you've obviously never had to sit next to a sweathog. Stop defending the fatties. If you're "large & in charge" then do us all the common courtesy of buying an extra seat.

I agree 100% with a seat width gateway. You have to do it for your carry-on, why not your butt?

[editor]

Nmainguy - you've obviously never had to sit next to a sweathog. Stop defending the fatties. If you're "large & in charge" then do us all the common courtesy of buying an extra seat.

I agree 100% with a seat width gateway. You have to do it for your carry-on, why not your butt?

It wouldn't work for all flights. Specifically, the Concorde. I had the good fortune to fly in a Concorde once for free. Just me and about 18 other people. Because of the short flight and the country we were flying over, we get to go supersonic, though.

Among the things that surprised me about the Concorde was that the seats weren't all that big. I was expecting something like a Lay-Z-Boy. But $11,000 a ticket doesn't buy you all that much space. Maybe only an inch or two more than Southwest.

Now imagine you've paid $11k for a plane ticket and being told you can't board because you don't fit in the seat. The only thing worse is having paid $11k for a ticket and the guy next to you squashes you because he's huge.

[Guest Plastic]

I checked Continental and United and there first classed were like $1,000. Are there any airlines who's FIrst Class is reasonable? Are seats in 2nd or business class in bigger?

[nmainguy]

Nmainguy - you've obviously never had to sit next to a sweathog. Stop defending the fatties. If you're "large & in charge" then do us all the common courtesy of buying an extra seat.

I agree 100% with a seat width gateway. You have to do it for your carry-on, why not your butt?

I've had my share of sweat-hogs on flights. I don't defend the obese-all I'm saying is not all large people are obese-some are just naturally large.

[editor]

I checked Continental and United and there first classed were like $1,000. Are there any airlines who's FIrst Class is reasonable? Are seats in 2nd or business class in bigger?

If you book online with United sometimes you get lucky. When purchasing a coach fair, right when it's going to authorize your card sometimes instead of getting a confirmation you'll end up at another screen which offers to upgrade you to first class for a really low price -- usually $25-$100, depending on the flight. I've only run into it a couple of times, though, and never with any discernable pattern.

[ssullivan]

I checked Continental and United and there first classed were like $1,000. Are there any airlines who's FIrst Class is reasonable? Are seats in 2nd or business class in bigger?

First, there is no second class. For domestic flights in the US, there is coach/economy, which everyone has, and first class (business class on AirTran) which is available mostly on the non-discount airlines. Only United is offering some form of a three-class service on domestic flights -- First, Economy Plus (regular economy with just a few extra inches of legroom), and Economy. Economy Plus is available for an additional charge for most passengers, and available for no extra charge to United's elite frequent fliers.

Internationally, the US carriers primarily offer only two classes of service -- Business and Coach/Economy. The two exceptions are American and United. Both offer international First, along with Business and Coach/Economy. True international first class is usually limited to just a handful of seats. Most US airlines, like Continental, Delta, US Airways, and Northwest, offer a hybrid of first/business class on routes over the Pacific and Atlantic. Continental is generally considered the best in this class of service, offering a product with a seat that is on par, if not slightly better, than most other airline's International Business class seats, combined with food and other service that approaches that of true International First.

Domestic first class is always expensive. Discounts on domestic first aren't as common as what you can get for economy. It's designed to provide a higher level of service for basically three groups of passengers -- those who can afford to pay for first class out of pocket, business travelers who work for companies that will pay for domestic first (this is a rapidly shrinking group -- many, if not most, companies won't let even senior managers fly on a paid first class ticket on most domestic flights), and elite frequent fliers. The third group is probably the largest group of passengers flying in first class on most domestic flights. These are passengers, like myself, who travel all the time, mostly for business. The airlines reward their top frequent fliers with free upgrades to first class as a means of keeping their business. The rules vary by airline, but in most cases, joining this group of travelers requires a minimum of 25,000 miles, or 30 flight segments, flown in a calendar year.

I have seen domestic first class available for less than $500/round trip. However, it's usually on very short flights, like Houston-Dallas. For the flights where first class is really worth it, like flights that are over two hours in length, you're not going to find many of them that price out for less than $1,000/round trip. It's because it is a premium level of service, which MUCH better seats and meals. Probably the most affordable way to fly in first class is to join a frequent flier program, and accumulate miles through flights, credit card purchases, shopping online, and other sources. Domestic upgrades to first class are available by redeeming miles on most airlines for 10,000-15,000 miles each way. They're not always easy to get, but not impossible either.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Probably the most affordable way to fly in first class is to join a frequent flier program, and accumulate miles through flights, credit card purchases, shopping online, and other sources. Domestic upgrades to first class are available by redeeming miles on most airlines for 10,000-15,000 miles each way. They're not always easy to get, but not impossible either.

Thanks for letting the cat outta the bag. Now we will end up with a bunch of newbies up front talking loud and consuming every free bottle of booze they can get thier hands on disturbing me while im either trying to work or sleep. ;)