Help! Its HOT in my house

[TXvoodoo]

I was wondering if anyone has a recommendation on how to solve the heat problem in my house. I purchased the Lucian Hood mod in Braeburn Valley last year and have since insulated it the best I could. The house has a built up roof (tar and gravel) that is almost flat. The areas that I could not insulate are the ceilings where the sheetrock is nailed directly to the ceiling joists. I suspect that the heat is coming from the roof because the tar sucks up the heat, but I don't know if it is the multiple floor to ceiling windows or the roof or both. The sun never directly hits any of the windows My house gets up to about 82 degrees inside each day and that is with a new 6 ton A/C unit running ALL day. It doesn't get tolerable until around midnight. I am looking at putting a standing seam roof on the house at a cost of $22,000.00. The roof would have 2 1/2 inch thick foam insulation under it, but I am worried that I will spend all this money and nothing will change, Any suggestions? Is there someone that could inspect my house and tell me where the majority of the heat is coming from? Any help is GREATLY appreciated!

[musicman]

I was wondering if anyone has a recommendation on how to solve the heat problem in my house. I purchased the Lucian Hood mod in Braeburn Valley last year and have since insulated it the best I could. The house has a built up roof (tar and gravel) that is almost flat. The areas that I could not insulate are the ceilings where the sheetrock is nailed directly to the ceiling joists. I suspect that the heat is coming from the roof because the tar sucks up the heat, but I don't know if it is the multiple floor to ceiling windows or the roof or both. The sun never directly hits any of the windows My house gets up to about 82 degrees inside each day and that is with a new 6 ton A/C unit running ALL day. It doesn't get tolerable until around midnight. I am looking at putting a standing seam roof on the house at a cost of $22,000.00. The roof would have 2 1/2 inch thick foam insulation under it, but I am worried that I will spend all this money and nothing will change, Any suggestions? Is there someone that could inspect my house and tell me where the majority of the heat is coming from? Any help is GREATLY appreciated!

if your windows are single pane, that will be one of the culprits. have you considered a storm window? many of the new ones are nonobtrusive. instead of putting on the "new roof" why don't you remove the sheetrock on the areas of the ceiling your were not able to access and then insulate and resheetrock. it definitely won't cost you 22k! this will give you way more R value than 2.5 inches of foam would. and be cheaper. maybe you could paint the roof white as well. not sure if aesthetically it would be hidden but that would definitely help.

[Original Timmy Chan's]

if your windows are single pane, that will be one of the culprits. have you considered a storm window? many of the new ones are nonobtrusive. instead of putting on the "new roof" why don't you remove the sheetrock on the areas of the ceiling your were not able to access and then insulate and resheetrock. it definitely won't cost you 22k! this will give you way more R value than 2.5 inches of foam would. and be cheaper. maybe you could paint the roof white as well. not sure if aesthetically it would be hidden but that would definitely help.

I'm no expert, but I think musicman is right on the money. Replacing the sheetrock from the inside would be much cheaper than $22k.

Also...I know nothing about the product, but would it help to install a radiant barrier under the roof? Once you've got the sheetrock down inside, you'd have access to the underside of the roof, it sounds like. Apply a radiant barrier and install some hefty insulation.

Making the roof as light in color as possible would also help reflect the sunlight instead of absorbing it.

[TXvoodoo]

Thanks for the advice. I think that is the best thing to do considering the cost of the roof.

[lwood]

I was wondering if anyone has a recommendation on how to solve the heat problem in my house. I purchased the Lucian Hood mod in Braeburn Valley last year and have since insulated it the best I could. The house has a built up roof (tar and gravel) that is almost flat. The areas that I could not insulate are the ceilings where the sheetrock is nailed directly to the ceiling joists. I suspect that the heat is coming from the roof because the tar sucks up the heat, but I don't know if it is the multiple floor to ceiling windows or the roof or both. The sun never directly hits any of the windows My house gets up to about 82 degrees inside each day and that is with a new 6 ton A/C unit running ALL day. It doesn't get tolerable until around midnight. I am looking at putting a standing seam roof on the house at a cost of $22,000.00. The roof would have 2 1/2 inch thick foam insulation under it, but I am worried that I will spend all this money and nothing will change, Any suggestions? Is there someone that could inspect my house and tell me where the majority of the heat is coming from? Any help is GREATLY appreciated!

Listen to 610 am at 8:00 on Saturday or Sunday morning. Call Tom Tynan for suggestions.

[musicman]

if your windows are single pane, that will be one of the culprits. have you considered a storm window? many of the new ones are nonobtrusive. instead of putting on the "new roof" why don't you remove the sheetrock on the areas of the ceiling your were not able to access and then insulate and resheetrock. it definitely won't cost you 22k! this will give you way more R value than 2.5 inches of foam would. and be cheaper. maybe you could paint the roof white as well. not sure if aesthetically it would be hidden but that would definitely help.

One thing you should do is during peak heat periods, touch the sheetrock and if it is warm to the touch then most likely this is one area you'd want to insulate. and one other thing, try to increase the ventilation in your attic if at all possible. I'll bet you can find a good sheetrock man who'll work for 100/day.

[jm1fd]

You first need to have a load calculation done to see where most of the heat gain is coming from. If you have a new A/C unit, they should have done the calculation when they replaced it to make sure the unit was adequately sized. Anyways...using the load calc, you can see where most of the heat is coming in as it will have gain values for the windows, doors, walls, celing, slab, infiltration, etc. You can then choose the worst offenders and attack them first.

If the celing is the culprit then, I'd tear down all the sheetrock, and have icynene foam sprayed in.

Edited July 13, 2006 by jm1fd

[Willowisp]

One of the the few things that is leftover from the former owner in our house is the (crap) air conditioner. It doesn't cool the house evenly, as would be expected with our game room's large wall of (single paine) windows. So we have the effect of our bedrooms being nice and cool while the game room is at about 80+ during the afternoon. It makes it tougher that we spend most of our time in there. We were starting to have big issues with it last September after we first moved in. The air-co man helped things by putting on a $300ish something or another that takes humidity out of the air (you can tell I really paid attention when he explained it to me). Then it supposedly feels 4 degrees less than you set it at. Since you have a new unit though, I bet it already has that on there. If there's a cheap way of sending more airco to the game room, that would be interesting, but I'm not going to have the house zoned for 2 air flows.

Your situation does not sound comfortable. I like the idea of trying to get the roof painted/gravelled white, as I bet that back in the early days of the house the roof was more white gravel than black tar (it seems to be done more black now - I always wonder why). Our house also has quite a bit of small white gravel on the (flat) roof mixed into the tar so that may have something to do with the lack of heat getting into the house. And our game room at least has a high ceiling for the hot air to go up to or not be able to get all the way through the roof and then down to me. Our window coverings also do a good job of keeping the heat out later in the afternoon. That is very obvious whenever it's sunny and I raise the blinds.

I wonder how much Tom Tynan talks to people with flat rooves (roofs?). Probably not too much, but he could be a great resource.

Jason

You first need to have a load calculation done to see where most of the heat gain is coming from. If you have a new A/C unit, they should have done the calculation when they replaced it to make sure the unit was adequately sized. Anyways...using the load calc, you can see where most of the heat is coming in as it will have gain values for the windows, doors, walls, celing, slab, infiltration, etc. You can then choose the worst offenders and attack them first.

If the celing is the culprit then, I'd tear down all the sheetrock, and have icynene foam sprayed in.

[Spencer Street]

it's most likely your roof as other guys said, but one way to test to see if it's your roof for heat gain is to spray water on your roof on a hot sunny day like every 2 hours. it is actually used as an effective way to minimize heat gain from roof by having a some kind of sprinkler system on roof hooked up with sensor.

but for this purpose, try to spray your roof with garden hose or whatever and make sure that water gets just on the roof in question. if it stays cool inside, it's your roof causing all the hotness. if it doesn't, it's something else.

Edited July 14, 2006 by Spencer Street

[TJones]

Has anyone mentioned a RADIANT BARRIER in the attic ? Try keeping that 6 ton a/c at 78* constant for now.

[GoAtomic]

Has anyone mentioned a RADIANT BARRIER in the attic ? Try keeping that 6 ton a/c at 78* constant for now.

SIX tons? good lord how big is the house?

I can vouch for the radiant barrier roof (the kind applied to OSB plywood anyway). Although my house has a true attic (5/1 roof pitch) with good insulation and ridge venting, I chose to use 'Koolply' OSB when I had my roof done over 5 years ago.

Since then, my 1833 sq. foot 1 story ranch, the bulk of which is in the direct sun most of the day, has rarely gone over 80 degrees inside after sitting all day with the a/c turned completely OFF, even on a 100+ degree day.

It's 74-75 degrees inside when I turn off the air and leave before 7:00am each day, and is usually sitting right on 80 on the thermostat (which is in the hottest place in the house) when I return home at 5:00pm. Then I fire up the a/c and let it cycle at 74 til bedtime, and cut it off again until I wake up. Overnite it usually goes up just 2-3 degrees. I do have tile floors throughout the house which I think also helps, but also have a completely attached garage with an uninsulated common attic. But the garage doesn't get too hot, further convincing me of the radiants' worth.

Not to rub it in, but my June bill just came in (5/30 - 6/27) and it was 592 kWh - just $95.17 with Reliants' std. plan. This is with a 3.5 ton 16 year old (Rheem?) condenser, 4 ton evap coil in the attic, with insulated but exposed ductwork, thermo set at 74 degrees. I also still have original 1960 windows and doors that leak plenty of air.

A couple of suggestions:

1) years ago I saw the outside coils of a commercial apartment unit being misted with water spray to improve the efficiency. If your condenser is in the direct sun, this might help.

2) It's a drastic step, but in some critically hot rooms you could consider adding a dropped ceiling under the rafter area to create insulated 'attic' space. And I'll bet there is little or no insulation in the sheetrock on beams area.

3) I've heard for years that 3 phase electrical service for an A/C unit is super efficient and, theoretically cheaper to run. Your area has to have it available to add, but many older parts of Houston do have it (Meyerland and Spring Branch do). It might require different A/C equipment though.

4) Find a way to insulate your a/c ductwork, even if it's in furdowns. This will help reduce heat gain as the air travels through the ducts.

Good luck !

Edited July 14, 2006 by GoAtomic

[jm1fd]

1) years ago I saw the outside coils of a commercial apartment unit being misted with water spray to improve the efficiency. If your condenser is in the direct sun, this might help.

That'll work great until the condenser is covered in mineral buildup which will cause the efficiency to go to shat.

3) I've heard for years that 3 phase electrical service for an A/C unit is super efficient and, theoretically cheaper to run. Your area has to have it available to add, but many older parts of Houston do have it (Meyerland and Spring Branch do). It might require different A/C equipment though.

Actually it isn't. The only efficiency gain is that 3 phase motors don't require as many parts (they don't need capacitors) to be installed in the unit.

Edited July 14, 2006 by jm1fd

[drex]

I have a low pitched 1 story built in 1965 and all main rooms in the house have vaulted beamed ceilings. I noticed the first summer the house didn't stay cool in certain rooms. My office was the worst: a bedroom sandwiched between a bath and bedroom on each side. The front and back bedrooms stay cool thanks to the trees shading the roof but the office receives full sun most of the day and would heat up quickly. It would heat up to 85 degrees on really hot days. Usually by 10am the office temperature would be at 80, peaking at 83-85 between noon and 6pm, and finally cooling down to 77-78 after 9-10pm. I work out of the house and even thought about moving rooms to stay cool. After some research on the net, I found an insulating and heat-reflecting paint additive. It sounded promising so I gave it a try. I painted 2 coats on the ceiling as directed and was surprised by the results. Before I painted, the ceiling was very warm to the touch - now it is cool. The temp does not go above 80 in the room now (with my thermostat set at 78) and only reaches that degree between 3pm - 5pm. The room cools down quickly to 77 after 6pm and sometimes at night it will go down as low as 73 (again with the thermostat set @ 78). I went ahead and bought more to do the rest of the house - I just haven't had the time to do it. I figured its an inexpensive fix for now and helps my work demeanor/performance too. Just an idea for you to think about.

[TXvoodoo]

I've been out of town for several days and was glad to come back and see the latest posts. Thanks for the feedback. Someone asked how big my house is: it is 3155 SqFt, 3 tons of AC per 1500 SqFt recommended. If anyone knows of an extremely knowledgable insulation person, then please let me know. I'll keep reading as long as there are new posts.

Edited July 16, 2006 by TXvoodoo

[jm1fd]

Someone asked how big my house is: it is 3155 SqFt, 3 tons of AC per 1500 SqFt recommended.

You can't use rules of thumb like 3 tons per 1500 sqft to size a system. If you had an 1500 sqft house that was 100% glass (walls, celings, everything) would it still require 3 tons? No. It would take a whole lot more. You have to do a load calc to figure out how large the system will need to be.

Edited July 16, 2006 by jm1fd

[WestburyMod]

I have an 1800 sq ft ranch with very low pitchedalmost flat roof. I went up the attic to look @ insulation and its non-existent. Most of the attic is boarded up, so dunno how to insulate it. Also, there's barely enough space to crawl!!! I dont wanna tear out sheetrock to insulate either.. What do you recommend?

Since I dont have any attic ventilation, there are grates alongside the house. I looked but did not see how fresh air can come up through the grates into the attic.. Also, what are your recommendations for changing out the roof turbine to an electric one? Is it worth the $$? Any recommended installers? Thanks.

SIX tons? good lord how big is the house?

I can vouch for the radiant barrier roof (the kind applied to OSB plywood anyway). Although my house has a true attic (5/1 roof pitch) with good insulation and ridge venting, I chose to use 'Koolply' OSB when I had my roof done over 5 years ago.

Since then, my 1833 sq. foot 1 story ranch, the bulk of which is in the direct sun most of the day, has rarely gone over 80 degrees inside after sitting all day with the a/c turned completely OFF, even on a 100+ degree day.

It's 74-75 degrees inside when I turn off the air and leave before 7:00am each day, and is usually sitting right on 80 on the thermostat (which is in the hottest place in the house) when I return home at 5:00pm. Then I fire up the a/c and let it cycle at 74 til bedtime, and cut it off again until I wake up. Overnite it usually goes up just 2-3 degrees. I do have tile floors throughout the house which I think also helps, but also have a completely attached garage with an uninsulated common attic. But the garage doesn't get too hot, further convincing me of the radiants' worth.

Not to rub it in, but my June bill just came in (5/30 - 6/27) and it was 592 kWh - just $95.17 with Reliants' std. plan. This is with a 3.5 ton 16 year old (Rheem?) condenser, 4 ton evap coil in the attic, with insulated but exposed ductwork, thermo set at 74 degrees. I also still have original 1960 windows and doors that leak plenty of air.

A couple of suggestions:

1) years ago I saw the outside coils of a commercial apartment unit being misted with water spray to improve the efficiency. If your condenser is in the direct sun, this might help.

2) It's a drastic step, but in some critically hot rooms you could consider adding a dropped ceiling under the rafter area to create insulated 'attic' space. And I'll bet there is little or no insulation in the sheetrock on beams area.

3) I've heard for years that 3 phase electrical service for an A/C unit is super efficient and, theoretically cheaper to run. Your area has to have it available to add, but many older parts of Houston do have it (Meyerland and Spring Branch do). It might require different A/C equipment though.

4) Find a way to insulate your a/c ductwork, even if it's in furdowns. This will help reduce heat gain as the air travels through the ducts.

Good luck !

[musicman]

I have an 1800 sq ft ranch with very low pitchedalmost flat roof. I went up the attic to look @ insulation and its non-existent. Most of the attic is boarded up, so dunno how to insulate it. Also, there's barely enough space to crawl!!! I dont wanna tear out sheetrock to insulate either.. What do you recommend?

Since I dont have any attic ventilation, there are grates alongside the house. I looked but did not see how fresh air can come up through the grates into the attic.. Also, what are your recommendations for changing out the roof turbine to an electric one? Is it worth the $$? Any recommended installers? Thanks.

well...the soffit vents should be free of debris for proper attic ventilation.

you have a big problem with heat if your insulation is nonexistent in attic. most likely your walls don't have any either if it is a westbury house. to insulate properly in attic you MUST remove flooring so that ceiling can be accessed and insulated. if you are going to replace wood back. just use r19. i would use r19 until you get entire attic done, then run another layer perpendicular to that, covering the joists.

you say you don't have any attic ventilation but you do mention turbines and grates. at one point, the house obviously did have ventilation. it may have originally had a wood shingled roof as well which allowed heat to escape easily due to its nature.

the electric turbines do wonders, but you must have enough soffit vents to allow the outside air to come in.

When i purchased my 1939 home, it had soffit vents but nothing at the peak of the roof. temps were getting to 150ish per my thermometer i had in my attic wired to downstairs. I ended up initially installing 2 turbines instead of ridge vents because my ridges weren't adequate to allow for proper cooling (probably the case for your house if it has a low pitched roof). The temps dropped 15-20 degrees in the attic. remember your central a/c is probably up there as well so it has to over come these high temps. well...i still wasn't satisfied so i installed a duct fan under one turbine which turned on when attic temp got to 110. I noticed that temp dropped immediately in the attic when the fan came on. about a month later i decided the experiment with the duct fan was successful that it warranted a 2nd duct fan for the other turbine. I will say that that duct fans are about 60 or 70 a piece but they have been successful. another plus of this system is that when they are off, the turbines are still spinning as long as there is wind. this isn't the case for the standard electric roof turbine. Efficiency-wise, I could set the fan to come on at a lower hi temperature but then it would be using more energy.

i think the last time i checked the attic temp was about 120 which is probably fairly average for peak times.

one other cheap project that you can do is build a cover for your attic door out of sheets of styrofoam. just go in the attic and have someone close the door on you. you can take measurements of how far the door protrudes into the attic when closed. then construct a box that is slightly larger that the dimensions. mine is triple layered. before i did this, i could feel the heat radiating thru the door. after installation i don't feel the heat.

Also since you have an older house, you may be lucky enough to have a GOOD return air setup where air is routed through a special cavity framed in when the house was built. very few new homes, if any have this. This allows you add another air return higher up the wall, ideally near ceiling. this pulls the warmer air near ceiling into the a/c system. We did that at my parents and they said it definitely helped.

Of course, all these attic projects are winter projects unless you want to pay high prices now.

As for installers and prices...my dad always finds the deals. i think he found a guy who installed both turbines for $20. i felt guilty so i bought the guy lunch too.

I would defintely start with installing a cheap wired thermometer in the attic near your attic door (put display somewhere downstairs) so you can estimate your attic temperature. then as you do each project, hopefully you'll see temperatures drop.

Edited July 17, 2006 by musicman

[TXvoodoo]

I have seen Solar powered turbines at Home Depot so you don't have to use your electricity to power them. I have not done any research on this product yet, but it seems like it would work well.

[3rd Nipple]

You might want to check out this product if you are in the market for a roof. It is called a PVC roofing membrane. I just had it put on my townhouse several weeks ago and have noticed a big difference in temperatures. I have a 3 story townhouse and the third floor was pretty hot during the summers. I had the roofing contractor put 1in insulation board along with a 60mil PVC membrane. The membrane comes in white which is highly reflective. It also comes with a 20yr warranty on the materials. Try searching google using these key words "single-ply membrane" or "PVC roofing" and you should get plenty of info.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/B200_Membrane...at_Roofs_.shtml

[musicman]

You might want to check out this product if you are in the market for a roof. It is called a PVC roofing membrane. I just had it put on my townhouse several weeks ago and have noticed a big difference in temperatures. I have a 3 story townhouse and the third floor was pretty hot during the summers. I had the roofing contractor put 1in insulation board along with a 60mil PVC membrane. The membrane comes in white which is highly reflective. It also comes with a 20yr warranty on the materials. Try searching google using these key words "single-ply membrane" or "PVC roofing" and you should get plenty of info.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/B200_Membrane...at_Roofs_.shtml

interesting product. at least one of them said not to use it if roof gets hotter than 120. make sure and choose the right one.

[WestburyMod]

Good point as these will be winter projects. Definitely do insulation and fans. You're right about the return air. I need to make another vent as my house came with a 5 ton unit, Its so loud when the air kicks on.

Who do you recommend for insulation? Thanks for the input

well...the soffit vents should be free of debris for proper attic ventilation.

you have a big problem with heat if your insulation is nonexistent in attic. most likely your walls don't have any either if it is a westbury house. to insulate properly in attic you MUST remove flooring so that ceiling can be accessed and insulated. if you are going to replace wood back. just use r19. i would use r19 until you get entire attic done, then run another layer perpendicular to that, covering the joists.

you say you don't have any attic ventilation but you do mention turbines and grates. at one point, the house obviously did have ventilation. it may have originally had a wood shingled roof as well which allowed heat to escape easily due to its nature.

the electric turbines do wonders, but you must have enough soffit vents to allow the outside air to come in.

When i purchased my 1939 home, it had soffit vents but nothing at the peak of the roof. temps were getting to 150ish per my thermometer i had in my attic wired to downstairs. I ended up initially installing 2 turbines instead of ridge vents because my ridges weren't adequate to allow for proper cooling (probably the case for your house if it has a low pitched roof). The temps dropped 15-20 degrees in the attic. remember your central a/c is probably up there as well so it has to over come these high temps. well...i still wasn't satisfied so i installed a duct fan under one turbine which turned on when attic temp got to 110. I noticed that temp dropped immediately in the attic when the fan came on. about a month later i decided the experiment with the duct fan was successful that it warranted a 2nd duct fan for the other turbine. I will say that that duct fans are about 60 or 70 a piece but they have been successful. another plus of this system is that when they are off, the turbines are still spinning as long as there is wind. this isn't the case for the standard electric roof turbine. Efficiency-wise, I could set the fan to come on at a lower hi temperature but then it would be using more energy.

i think the last time i checked the attic temp was about 120 which is probably fairly average for peak times.

one other cheap project that you can do is build a cover for your attic door out of sheets of styrofoam. just go in the attic and have someone close the door on you. you can take measurements of how far the door protrudes into the attic when closed. then construct a box that is slightly larger that the dimensions. mine is triple layered. before i did this, i could feel the heat radiating thru the door. after installation i don't feel the heat.

Also since you have an older house, you may be lucky enough to have a GOOD return air setup where air is routed through a special cavity framed in when the house was built. very few new homes, if any have this. This allows you add another air return higher up the wall, ideally near ceiling. this pulls the warmer air near ceiling into the a/c system. We did that at my parents and they said it definitely helped.

Of course, all these attic projects are winter projects unless you want to pay high prices now.

As for installers and prices...my dad always finds the deals. i think he found a guy who installed both turbines for $20. i felt guilty so i bought the guy lunch too.

I would defintely start with installing a cheap wired thermometer in the attic near your attic door (put display somewhere downstairs) so you can estimate your attic temperature. then as you do each project, hopefully you'll see temperatures drop.

[musicman]

Good point as these will be winter projects. Definitely do insulation and fans. You're right about the return air. I need to make another vent as my house came with a 5 ton unit, Its so loud when the air kicks on.

Who do you recommend for insulation? Thanks for the input

an additional return air will definitely help on the noise level. your current setup is also making the furnace fan work harder and hence less efficient overall. I did a modification on the one at my house and my airflow increased significantly (about 30 percent). code recently changed as well. if you have a 3 ton unit, the city is requiring 18" return air duct at the minimum. i believe it was 16" before.

you said your insulation was non existant. is this true? or has the old one settled? I would stay away from treated paper products and just stick with fiberglass. I know a guy that does a lot, including insulation that is a good worker. He's not an insulator contractor per se. not sure if that will suffice. PM me and i'll look for his number in the meantime.

installing insulation isn't hard..i'm sure you could tackle at least some of it. now they have encapsulated insulation so the itching problem isn't an issue.

[stolitx]

You might want to check out this product if you are in the market for a roof. It is called a PVC roofing membrane. I just had it put on my townhouse several weeks ago and have noticed a big difference in temperatures. I have a 3 story townhouse and the third floor was pretty hot during the summers. I had the roofing contractor put 1in insulation board along with a 60mil PVC membrane. The membrane comes in white which is highly reflective. It also comes with a 20yr warranty on the materials. Try searching google using these key words "single-ply membrane" or "PVC roofing" and you should get plenty of info.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/B200_Membrane...at_Roofs_.shtml

what was the rough $ of this? I have a flat roof and can't insulate.

[3rd Nipple]

what was the rough $ of this? I have a flat roof and can't insulate.

paid $7500 that was including 4 new skylights and a new gutter . they calculated my roof to be around 10 squares. the product also comes in 50 mil which is a little cheaper. here is the manufactures website:

www.jm.com