Some Democrats Gung-Ho over taking N.Korea out !

[johncoby]

DRUNK HOMOPHOBE.

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DRUNK IGNORANT HOMOPHOBE.

BTW what tipped you off that he was drunk?

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

DRUNK IGNORANT HOMOPHOBE.

BTW what tipped you off that he was drunk?

Chiming in to protect your mangy lap dog, how touching......

[TJones]

Apparently, JC is like a few Republicans I know, who can never admit Bush is wrong, so I'll say it. Bush is doing the only thing he reasonably can do, which is to use diplomacy, in concert with building an international condemnation of N. Korea and it's actions. Some carrots will be dangled too, if N. Korea shows signs of cooperation. Sure, there will occasionally be episodes of sabre rattling from Pyongyang, but doling out some economic incentives every few years while we wait for him to die beats the alternative.

Apparently, N. Korea's missiles are not as advanced as they would like them to be, so his threats are diminished somewhat. This makes the number of carrots we need to dangle a few less.

So, Red, are you saying that using diplomacy is the RIGHT thing or the WRONG thing in dealing with N.Korea ?

[TheNiche]

So, Red, are you saying that using diplomacy is the RIGHT thing or the WRONG thing in dealing with N.Korea ?

Right thing. That was a pretty clear statement, too.

[RedScare]

Yeah, I thought I had a moment of clarity in that post, too.

In spite of the mistake of daring Kim Jong Il to play the fool by making the "Axis of Evil" speech, now that the damage is done, Bush is properly treading lightly by working with the international community to condemn N. Korea. It is important to realize that N. Korea is mere feet away from two very close allies, Japan and South Korea. Military action by N. Korea would wreak havoc on these 2 countries, even if N. Korea is quickly subdued. Containment is the ultimate goal, so sending them some more food in order to lock up the nukes or the facilities is a win.

[TJones]

DRUNK IGNORANT HOMOPHOBE.

BTW what tipped you off that he was drunk?

Please john, Nmain and Moonman don't need any help from the peanut gallery.

SO, what is all this about here, namecalling and more namecalling ? Not on my thread please. You can be Drunk and a Queen on this Forum for all I care. I have been drunk a few times on here, can't say I have been a queen, but I don't care if someone is. Let's all take a deep breath and recoup here. You boys go stand in neutral corners, and don't come out until you can play nice.

Perry's ideas are nonsense. We aren't considering the missile firing an act of war or even an act of aggression. They are just trying to see how badly they build missiles. If there were any REAL threat, you bet your @$$ they would have been shot out of the sky. The Dems. wanted to keep using Diplomacy after 17 tries with an Meglomaniac in Iraq. Now, you won't even give Kim John (mentally) Il, 2 tries. C'mon, where is your compassion for the poor 3rd world country and it's leader ?

Yeah, I thought I had a moment of clarity in that post, too.

That's great, you are finally able to admit that Bush actually has done something right in your opinion.

Somebody call Ripley's! Red, is obviously the one drunk around here. We are agreeing again, this is sweet !

Edited July 10, 2006 by TJones

[nmainguy]

C'mon, where is your compassion for the poor 3rd world country and it's leader ?

To be honest, I was always under the impression we were trying to deal with a cult leader. It appears we still are. If you have a secret formula for dealing with someone like Kim or David Koresh, clue us in. This guy will never be satisfied. Never. TJ, you can try negotiating and moon can go after him with all we have and you'll still get two unsatisfying results: utter frustration or 10's of thousands of dead American soldiers.

I don't care for either result but I don't have any better solution than anyone else. Diplomacy is a 2 way street and Kim has proved he renigs at every turn. A military solution-though ultimatly successful for the US-is hardly worth the suffering that the families left behind will have to endure.

Maybe you and Red and some others are right about waiting him out and giving him food-30% of which never gets to the people actually starving. How long do we wait?

And thanks for fixing your avatar...those red "x"'s in a box annoy me.

Edited July 10, 2006 by nmainguy

[TJones]

And thanks for fixing your avatar...those red "x"'s in a box annoy me.

Somehow Johnny Blaze got moved. So I made my own NEW spidey avatar.

Back to the topic at hand though. Truthfully the only reason Bush is willing to talk, because he will wait for China to realize that they can't control the little food horder either. Why are we even worried about Mother Russia not being on board, they can stuff a bottle of Stoli up their's for all I care.

At this point, I say we just finish what we started in Iraq, and then close all bases and burn'em, leave nothing there, then bring ALL soldiers back home. Ask for volunteers to recieve double pay to go fortify Alaska, deploy the rest of our boys at the borders, North and South. Damn Canucks are almost as bad, as our southern neighbors you know. J/k We will patrol the borders though, and continue to do business as usual with all of our foreign companies and Govts. we deal with currently. We will also kick the U.N. out of the country and let them move to Montreal, or Mexico City. They don't have to go there, but the got to get the FUDGE out of here !

[nmainguy]

We will also kick the U.N. out of the country and let them move to Montreal, or Mexico City. They don't have to go there, but the got to get the FUDGE out of here !

Ummm...kinda hard to kick the UN out of their own domain...but it makes alot of people feel good for a few minutes thinking we can.

BTW, thanks for the avatar fix.

[RedScare]

Somehow Johnny Blaze got moved. So I made my own NEW spidey avatar.

Back to the topic at hand though. Truthfully the only reason Bush is willing to talk, because he will wait for China to realize that they can't control the little food horder either. Why are we even worried about Mother Russia not being on board, they can stuff a bottle of Stoli up their's for all I care.

At this point, I say we just finish what we started in Iraq, and then close all bases and burn'em, leave nothing there, then bring ALL soldiers back home. Ask for volunteers to recieve double pay to go fortify Alaska, deploy the rest of our boys at the borders, North and South. Damn Canucks are almost as bad, as our southern neighbors you know. J/k We will patrol the borders though, and continue to do business as usual with all of our foreign companies and Govts. we deal with currently. We will also kick the U.N. out of the country and let them move to Montreal, or Mexico City. They don't have to go there, but the got to get the FUDGE out of here !

We need Russia and China for their Security Council vote. Russia is talking about abstaining, so China is all that is left. The UN does carry some weight in these diplomatic manuevers. It provides a vehicle to show a united front. I don't think KJI really intends to do anything stupid, just use this to garner attention and aid. He has been described as crazy like a fox. He surely must know that a war means the end of his regime.

As for Iraq, get rid of your delusions. The US is building a permanent base north of Baghdad. We are never leaving, at least not soon. It was always part of the unspoken plan. Saddam and his supposed violations of UN resolutions (see, sometimes the UN is useful, even to neocons) gave cover to invade and never leave.

[jmancuso]

As for Iraq, get rid of your delusions. The US is building a permanent base north of Baghdad. We are never leaving, at least not soon. It was always part of the unspoken plan. Saddam and his supposed violations of UN resolutions (see, sometimes the UN is useful, even to neocons) gave cover to invade and never leave.

totally.

[TJones]

We need Russia and China for their Security Council vote. Russia is talking about abstaining, so China is all that is left. The UN does carry some weight in these diplomatic manuevers. It provides a vehicle to show a united front. I don't think KJI really intends to do anything stupid, just use this to garner attention and aid. He has been described as crazy like a fox. He surely must know that a war means the end of his regime.

As for Iraq, get rid of your delusions. The US is building a permanent base north of Baghdad. We are never leaving, at least not soon. It was always part of the unspoken plan. Saddam and his supposed violations of UN resolutions (see, sometimes the UN is useful, even to neocons) gave cover to invade and never leave.

I know, they are building actually the biggest FORTRESS ever, according to my ex-Marine Sargeant co-worker buddy, who just got back from there about a year ago, and did 2 tours there. I know it is a bit delusional to desire all bases closed and all men and women back at home. It is a nice dream though, so let me have it Red.

I am not saying we don't need a U.N., we just don't need them here. I agree that KJI won't do anything stupid, I don't think he'll let U.N. inspectors in either. So, we have a stalemate, he knows he can't really do anything to provoke a war, and we know we can't run in and cut the head off the snake that is N.Korea.

Red, do you think that even without China, we have gotten enough backing form the rest of the world community, to make John Il realize he has nowhere to go with this new Nuclear race he has started.

[TheNiche]

Somehow Johnny Blaze got moved. So I made my own NEW spidey avatar.

" I am justice, I am the night, I am.................Batman !"

You may want to change your signature.

[TJones]

You may want to change your signature.

D'oh !

[HeightsGuy]

Easy war? This would be anything but.

Bear in mind that DPRK's territory (and artillery emplacements) extend to within about 25 miles of downtown Seoul and that the Seoul National Capital Area has a population of about 23 million. Also bear in mind that about a third of DPRK's GDP is allocated to military investments. Make no mistake about it: the first sign of preemptive military action on our part would result in Seoul being turned into a firestorm.

We'd certainly win, and I think that it'd be a relatively short-lived war, but it'd make the civilian casualty figures from Iraq look like a walk through the park. I doubt that the S. Koreans would ever forgive us.

I still think that is old thinking. Look at what we did to Iraq in Desert Storm and the current war, and look at what we did in Afganistan. Not saying we are winning the peace, but we can and do kick-butt when it comes to all-out assult.

Cut the head off N. Korea in a massive air strike and the troops will drop weapons and scatter like ants within hours. N. Koreans do not know how to think on their own, take away the command structure and it all goes to pot for them.

[TheNiche]

I still think that is old thinking. Look at what we did to Iraq in Desert Storm and the current war, and look at what we did in Afganistan. Not saying we are winning the peace, but we can and do kick-butt when it comes to all-out assult.

Cut the head off N. Korea in a massive air strike and the troops will drop weapons and scatter like ants within hours. N. Koreans do not know how to think on their own, take away the command structure and it all goes to pot for them.

Iraq and Afghanistan weren't threatening to bombard their neighbors. Even when Iraq occupied Kuwait, it was for purely economic reasons and Saddam had no intentions of waging a total war on the civilian population. These aren't comparable circumstances to DPRK. And yes, we can kick butt...pretty quickly too...but I fear that the first couple of hours would be enough time for artillery emplacements to kill a whole lot of S. Koreans.

As far as hoping that killing Kim would instantly disarm the entire military machine...I don't think that the S. Koreans would want to take that kind of a gamble given the circumstances. I mean, what if there was even a communication failure for a matter of a few hours? It'd be slaughter and the U.S. would be entirely to blame.

[HeightsGuy]

Iraq and Afghanistan weren't threatening to bombard their neighbors. Even when Iraq occupied Kuwait, it was for purely economic reasons and Saddam had no intentions of waging a total war on the civilian population. These aren't comparable circumstances to DPRK. And yes, we can kick butt...pretty quickly too...but I fear that the first couple of hours would be enough time for artillery emplacements to kill a whole lot of S. Koreans.

As far as hoping that killing Kim would instantly disarm the entire military machine...I don't think that the S. Koreans would want to take that kind of a gamble given the circumstances. I mean, what if there was even a communication failure for a matter of a few hours? It'd be slaughter and the U.S. would be entirely to blame.

Uh, scuds? Which, btw, are probably more sofisticated than anything N. Korea has in it's arsenal.

Look, I've heard it four times now in the past 15 years. Don't go to Bosnia, you can't win there. Watch out for Saddam, he has the 4th largest army in the world, look out for Afganistan, the Soviets couldn't win there and they were way superior than the rebels, and finally Saddam again, he has WOMD's, we don't want to mess with him again.

I will argue politics all day from a liberal point of view, but I will never argue against the might of the US military. Very smart people have been thinking how to stop N. Korea for decades, I have to believe they have a really good plan for a very quick campaign. On the other hand, who knows if our clueless leaders would know what to do with N. Korea after we won the battle, but that would be an argument for another day.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Perry's ideas are nonsense.

You dont know how right you are on this one. As i said before, im still waiting for him to do the right thing and fall on his sword. This is the same man who gave his full support to the Clinton plan to deal with N Korea in the 1990's. Promised and assured everyone it would work. Put his life and career on the line to show his strong support. It was a failure then and its going to be a failure now. Bush is singing the same tune Clinton did, and it will not work. Suprising Perry is so gung-ho for shooting since he was the same spinless jellyfish that wanted to avoid that at all cost. This clown is NO strategist and he should stop trying to play the role. You dont blow up the missles those jackasses are firing off, instead you turn every available camera on them and watch. You can tell A LOT about the weapon just by viewing it. Im suprised i havent heard one of the so called "experts" on tv make that point.

BTW- Another one of Perry's ingenious ideas was to take our nuclear forces off "hair trigger alert". He and Clinton thought that by doing this, Russia would do the same. Again, it didnt work. While all of our nuclear stockpile is either targeted towards the open oceans or not targeted at all, the Russian nukes are still trained on our cities and military installations. Perry is a freak.

[DJ V Lawrence]

We need Russia and China for their Security Council vote. Russia is talking about abstaining, so China is all that is left. The UN does carry some weight in these diplomatic manuevers. It provides a vehicle to show a united front. I don't think KJI really intends to do anything stupid, just use this to garner attention and aid. He has been described as crazy like a fox. He surely must know that a war means the end of his regime.

First to Nmainguy, Kim Jong-Il is more comparable to Hitler and Stalin than David Coresh. North Korea's style of government was modeled directly from Stalin's government. Remember how many people were killed within Russia and Germany in the '30s and '40s, and you get a perspective as to how DPRK works.

To respond to Redscare, I'm wondering if Kim Jong-Il ordered the missile test purposely to divide China, Russia, South Korea, Japan, and the U.S.. If so, smart move on his part. I say we delay pursuing the 6-party talks. I think the U.S. first needs to have a tri-meeting with South Korea and Japan to get them back on the same page, then have a meeting with China and Russia to understand how much leverage they expect to give DPRK before they'd vote for sanctions. Once they all agree on the side, address the U.N on where everyone stands. There's nothing Kim Jong Il wants more right now than for the other 5 nations to not be on the same page.

[RedScare]

I'm wondering if Kim Jong-Il ordered the missile test purposely to divide China, Russia, South Korea, Japan, and the U.S.. If so, smart move on his part. I say we delay pursuing the 6-party talks.

Word is he shot the missiles to get attention back on himself, as Iran was getting all of the attention. The problem is, his missiles were duds, at least the big one. Now that the US knows that his technology is not up to snuff, he carries a much smaller stick at any talks. Remember too, that China told him not to fire the missiles. They are probably not too pleased that he ignored them.

But, this is how the diplomatic game works. Tit for tat. As long as they are either at the table, or negotiating who goes to the table, then he is probably not going to do anything stupid. Of course, now Japan is talking tough, making everyone over there nervous.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Word is he shot the missiles to get attention back on himself, as Iran was getting all of the attention.

I've heard a few people in the press say that, and that doesn't sound right at all. Kim Jong-Il's crazy, but he's not that reckless. It's not about attention, it's about money for him and da Pyongyang Posse. Word to the mother...

The problem is, his missiles were duds, at least the big one. Now that the US knows that his technology is not up to snuff, he carries a much smaller stick at any talks. Remember too, that China told him not to fire the missiles. They are probably not too pleased that he ignored them.

But, this is how the diplomatic game works. Tit for tat. As long as they are either at the table, or negotiating who goes to the table, then he is probably not going to do anything stupid. Of course, now Japan is talking tough, making everyone over there nervous.

That's why we don't want DPRK testing missiles. We know their weapon-technology's obsolete. What concerns the world is if DPRK were actually able to figure out how to build them. Then, they would threaten the border nations around them and the U.S. in exchange for more food, aid, and energy which would only go to the military and fuel their dependant economy.

I think Japan's stance threw everybody off-guard. I mean, they're even publicly debating a pre-emptive strike on DPRK, even though they don't have any missiles that can reach across the sea. I really don't understand why Russia isn't as angry knowing that the missiles went their direction. And I don't understand why China and Russia are still giving DPRK the means to build missiles and weapons when both China and Russia have the means to build everything that DPRK's building, and can make their own profits. I don't get it.

What does DPRK offer Russia and China that they can't get in their own country?

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

What does DPRK offer Russia and China that they can't get in their own country?

A sharp, visible and vocal thorn in the side of the USA.

[TheNiche]

Uh, scuds? Which, btw, are probably more sofisticated than anything N. Korea has in it's arsenal.

Look, I've heard it four times now in the past 15 years. Don't go to Bosnia, you can't win there. Watch out for Saddam, he has the 4th largest army in the world, look out for Afganistan, the Soviets couldn't win there and they were way superior than the rebels, and finally Saddam again, he has WOMD's, we don't want to mess with him again.

I will argue politics all day from a liberal point of view, but I will never argue against the might of the US military. Very smart people have been thinking how to stop N. Korea for decades, I have to believe they have a really good plan for a very quick campaign. On the other hand, who knows if our clueless leaders would know what to do with N. Korea after we won the battle, but that would be an argument for another day.

I mostly agree with you. Our military would make short work of the DPRK. Probably wouldn't take more than a few weeks, especially if we launched a surprise campaign.

The ONLY single thing that would concern me is the very first day (or hours, really) of the war. Neither of us is an expert in these matters, and although you may very well be right, I am personally inclined to take a very conservative tack on the issue...I'd hate to push for military action and end up being wrong.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Very smart people have been thinking how to stop N. Korea for decades, I have to believe they have a really good plan for a very quick campaign.

Very true. So true its almost gospel. The key would be if our leaders have the balls to go through with that quick decisive campaign.

[nmainguy]

Very true. So true its almost gospel. The key would be if our leaders have the balls to go through with that quick decisive campaign.

But you really arn't sure if they actually have a "quick desisive campaign" are you? You seem to think they do but...

Perhaps their "quick decisive campaign" involves tens of thousands of American fatalities. Can we afford? Is N. Korea really worth it? We've found out Iraq wasn't.

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

But you really arn't sure if they actually have a "quick desisive campaign" are you? You seem to think they do but...

Perhaps their "quick decisive campaign" involves tens of thousands of American fatalities. Can we afford? Is N. Korea really worth it? We've found out Iraq wasn't.

Im VERY sure about the quick decisive part. The devil is the casualties. Iraq and N Korea are 2 diff. ball games. N Korea is threatening nuclear war with the USA and we should act as though it is valid. That being said, it will be a very different style of attack. One that would likely involved a high amount of casualties. With people like Cheney and Rummy in power positions, im not sure it will happen.

[TJones]

http://www.kinison.com/video/files/backtos...l_1985_250k.wmv

This might be of some assistance as to where we went wrong with N.Korea.

[TheNiche]

N. Korea's got nukes. What now?

As a sidenote: Bye-bye petty sex scandals...hello wartime politics. Depending on how the political parties (and Bush in particular) play this issue over the next couple of weeks, Kim Jong Il may very well have kept a Republican majority in congress. Probably not his intention.

[Guest Marty]

N. Korea's got nukes. What now?

As a sidenote: Bye-bye petty sex scandals...hello wartime politics. Depending on how the political parties (and Bush in particular) play this issue over the next couple of weeks, Kim Jong Il may very well have kept a Republican majority in congress. Probably not his intention.

I see a naval blockade of North Korea coming.

[Mark F. Barnes]

http://www.kinison.com/video/files/backtos...l_1985_250k.wmv

This might be of some assistance as to where we went wrong with N.Korea.

Now that's funny, and very true, but still hilarious.