Uptown Dallas Density

[JasonDFW]

Reminds me a bit of the TMC (just maybe not as compact or as many cranes). Nice pano there though.

There are 17 cranes in that photo, which for Dallas is quite a bit. I imagine it hasn't looked like that since the 80s, which I missed entirely so it's all new to me.

Jason

[dfwcre8tive]

Second Ritz-Carlton condo tower going up

11:13 AM CDT on Thursday, August 9, 2007

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

stevebrown@dallasnews.com

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...n.1929153c.html

A week before the first building opens, construction is underway on a second condo tower in Uptown's Ritz-Carlton development.

Crescent Real Estate Equities Co. has begun building the 23-story Residences at the Ritz-Carlton phase two building at Pearl Street and Cedar Springs Road.

The 23-story tower will contain 96 condominiums and is set to open in mid-2009.

Homes in the $175 million project will range from $700,000 to $8 million.

Construction of the Uptown condo tower follows successful sale of 70 condos in the first building, which also includes the Ritz-Carlton Dallas Hotel.

"It's basically sold out

[KinkaidAlum]

The Ritz project looks beautiful. If the real thing turns out to be even half as good as the renderings, you can count this Houstonian as jealous!

[TxDave]

The Ritz project looks beautiful. If the real thing turns out to be even half as good as the renderings, you can count this Houstonian as jealous!

The new tower looks good, but probably not as good at the rendering implies.

Perhaps "aging" will help these buildings establish their dignity.

[strickn]

So two ~20-story towers will be the most expensive ever on that side of Dallas?

Trae - the quote to which you're referring said most expensive along the Woodall Rogers corridor. Woodall Rogers is an E-W freeway trench running to the Trinity River from Central Expwy. Its corridor lies in between Downtown and Uptown. Either this is only the most expensive along that linear frontage, or older towers a block (on the south) and a few blocks (on the north) from it were not inflated to 2007 dollars before comparing.

[strickn]

Since the thread has dropped, I don't feel badly about derailing it from the listed topic: any idea what the expenses of the biggest non-public building projects (not airports, ports, bridges, stadia, etc) on various 'sides' of Houston have been? I wonder how much Transco cost in 198x dollars and in 2007 dollars, and whether other buildings like Conoco headquarters along I-10 were bigger. For the east side of town, it would probably be a refinery or plant, but I wonder what it was before that. In Dallas, Uptown is active, but Richardson (kind of like, I dunno, Meyerland?) saw the finish of a $3 billion high-tech building in the past year. The Dallas logistics hub looking to capitalize (and piggyback) on the Port of Houston is a development with a lot of investment: Union Pacific has a major intermodal hub going and BNSF bought rights in April to purchase land for a terminal.

[nucklehead]

If done right, Midtown Houston could be even greater than Uptown Dallas.

The potential of Midtown is huge, especially the area from Louisiana to San Jacinto and Pierce to Elgin. But it must not be developed as a bunch of isolated compounds, rather it should be a number of open properties, interconnected with the neighborhood.

The city of Dallas has been passionate about developing both its downtown and surrounding areas for some 30 years now. If the city of Houston likewise wants to do something with its Midtown area, it will need to make some time consuming fixes. One fix is that it needs to bury the two elevated freeways that cut off the neighborhood of Midtown from both the downtown area and the Art's district/Medical Center areas. Of course, the problem with burying any freeway in Houston is that they are subject to torrential flooding.

The city of Dallas planned well by originally burying the freeway that splits both the downtown area from the uptown one. Now they are in the process of making even the sunken portion of the freeway disappear by building a park plaza on top of it.

In regards to development, developers never develop in a continuous fashion in a single area. A problem arises when prices of real estate rise along with the value of the finished development. That is why new development tends to spread out throughout a booming area because developers look elsewhere for cheaper land prices. Eventually the too hot prices around the new development will cool off enough to add new development to that particular area. But once again the price of real estate would rise causing the developers to once again look elsewhere for cheaper land.

Another concern with planned developments are economic downturns. During the recession of the 80's a lot of master planned developments in Houston got scrapped. One example of this would be Greenway Plaza. The original master plan for its development called for a mini airport to be built upon a long, continuous parking garage across the freeway. There is now retail space in its place. The master plan also called for another Summit like arena to be built in the project. Anyway, the point is that master plans go to hell during a recession and leave huge gaps of undevelopment afterwards even up to many years after the economy has picked back up.

[Trae]

They aren't covering all of the Woodall Rogers Freeway. Just part of it.

[nucklehead]

They aren't covering all of the Woodall Rogers Freeway. Just part of it.

True. But the city of Dallas is so convinced that elevated freeways restrict development downtown that they are considering a long range plan to bury the mix masters also along with the whole freeway loop that encircles the city core.

[Trae]

They need to get started on that. That is a lot of freeway to bury.

[nucklehead]

Check out this nice pano of Uptown Dallas:

OTHER SIZES

That picture is awesome indeed. Consider that Uptown will really start booming once they complete the next phase of the Art's district. That might be hard for one to imagine but where else is there a better place to invest?

[nucklehead]

Dallas, according to this June 2006 report, comes in behind Austin in the CBD rankings. Houston is 8th (number of employees downtown). We (Hou) rank first in Texas.

CBD USA

Of course, Houston is most charitable in Texas. Some interesting tidbits in here.

This article was in DBJ in May 2006.

Dallas CBD

I remember reading somewhere that the Las Colinas area in Irving has more office space than the whole city of Austin. If this is indeed true, how can it be possible that downtown Austin has more workers than downtown Dallas while at the same time it has less space than Las Coninas which has fewer employees than downtown Dallas? Could it be that government workers are included in the statistics maybe?

[nucklehead]

I agree with you red for the most part but I think that the only way this would hurt downtown was if it was 50% vacant and up.Because........ if dallas only had 100 buildings downtown and let's say our vacancy rate was 30% that would mean 30 of the 100 would be empty.And what your saying is this would then cause an increase of crime (which it's possible) Undesireable to tourist, no business travelers would enjoy downtown.....That is untrue...because if just 30 empty buildings could cause all of this then What are the other 70 buildings doing.....................Nothing? And to keep things in perspective...DtD is on 22% vacant not even 30%.

When looking at office buildings as a tourist, I really have no preference as to whether they are occupied with working employees or are sitting empty.

[Trae]

Wow okay, as a tourist... Like that really matters.

"Hey guys, let's go to Detroit, and look at their dark and abandoned office towers".

[nucklehead]

They need to get started on that. That is a lot of freeway to bury.

You do realize that I was talking about only the downtown area and not the entire freeway loop system that encircles most of the city? That would indeed be a lot of freeway to bury. The reason I mention this is because the city of Dallas is convinced that elevated freeways cut off neighborhoods from each other and stunt development. If this theory is true, then this would mean that the Midtown area in Houston has 2 elevated freeways and 1 elevated feeder cutting it off from almost 3/4 of the rest of the city.Also one must keep in mind how developers build in a neighborhood. They don't just concentrate on a single area because that gets too expensive as completed developments tend to drive prices up to an unreasonable price. So developers will leave to focus on other areas in that same neighborhood for a while until prices come back down to a more reasonable level. That is why neighborhoods in the suburbs tend to get developed in a checkerboard fashion. This habit by developers shows why it is important to do away elevated freeways as hindrances to development. I can give an excellent example showing just how true this theory works. Take a look at one of Midtown's fastest growing areas just to the southwest of downtown Houston and you will notice that it is not seperated by an elevated freeway from the already established neighborhood of Montrose.

Wow okay, as a tourist... Like that really matters."Hey guys, let's go to Detroit, and look at their dark and abandoned office towers".

I guess what I am saying is that I never actually look into an office building at the employees when I am looking at an office building. I mean, if I am not looking into the office building at the employees, then how would I even know that the office building is empty? (How many letter I's can you find in this statement?)

[Trae]

I was talking about the freeway loop that surrounds Downtown Dallas. A lot of freeway to bury.

[Guest Marty]

Like I said in this thread... post #2...http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...showtopic=12672

Dallas and Houston can not be compared to each other because of the vibe that makes them one of a kind, That is what makes Texas great, that's what makes life great. be yourself ect...

[RedScare]

The city of Dallas has been passionate about developing both its downtown and surrounding areas for some 30 years now.

Absolutely false.

[RedScare]

I remember reading somewhere that the Las Colinas area in Irving has more office space than the whole city of Austin. If this is indeed true, how can it be possible that downtown Austin has more workers than downtown Dallas while at the same time it has less space than Las Coninas which has fewer employees than downtown Dallas? Could it be that government workers are included in the statistics maybe?

Las Colinas does not have more office space than Austin. Las Colinas has 22.3 million square feet, while Austin has nearly 40 million square feet. Additionally, it is not true that downtown Dallas has more workers than Las Colinas. Las Colinas has approximately 100,000 workers to Austin's 86,000 to Dallas' 79,000.

As to your last question, of course government workers are included. Why would they not be? It may surprise you to learn that government workers also work at Dallas City Hall, the courthouses, and the County.

[nucklehead]

Absolutely false.

Excuse me? I am actually from Dallas. Uptown in Dallas exists primarily because the city had the vision to bury a portion of the freeway below grade some 30 years ago. Then in the 80's when land in downtown Dallas got too expensive, office construction began to be built north of the freeway in the area now called uptown. During that time a developer by the name of Fox (Fox and Jacobs fame) tried building houses just to the northeast of downtown. A lot of work went into the infrastructure of Uptown at different times. Uptown didn't just grow out of the ground like a weed.

I know Houstonians hate to hear this because they like to think that the area of Midtown will some day develop as Uptown did in Dallas by just magically growing itself out of the ground.

[nucklehead]

Las Colinas does not have more office space than Austin. Las Colinas has 22.3 million square feet, while Austin has nearly 40 million square feet. Additionally, it is not true that downtown Dallas has more workers than Las Colinas. Las Colinas has approximately 100,000 workers to Austin's 86,000 to Dallas' 79,000.

As to your last question, of course government workers are included. Why would they not be? It may surprise you to learn that government workers also work at Dallas City Hall, the courthouses, and the County.

Okay. So I assume that Las Colinas has more office space than downtown Austin because it has more employees working there? And Downtown Dallas has fewer employees than Las Colinas even though it has more office space? We live in a strange world of statistics.

In regards to government, yes, governments do exist almost everywhere. I think this is a given. However, my point was that Austin will never be a great city like Dallas as long as it has way too much of it.

[Trae]

All that office space in Downtown Dallas is vacant, hence the fewer employees. You should know that.

[RedScare]

Excuse me? I am actually from Dallas. Uptown in Dallas exists primarily because the city had the vision to bury a portion of the freeway below grade some 30 years ago. Then in the 80's when land in downtown Dallas got too expensive, office construction began to be built north of the freeway in the area now called uptown. During that time a developer by the name of Fox (Fox and Jacobs fame) tried building houses just to the northeast of downtown. A lot of work went into the infrastructure of Uptown at different times. Uptown didn't just grow out of the ground like a weed.

I know Houstonians hate to hear this because they like to think that the area of Midtown will some day develop as Uptown did in Dallas by just magically growing itself out of the ground.

You may be from Dallas, but you have absolutely no knowledge of history whatsoever. Your statements bear no resemblance to reality. Google "Dallas real estate collapse 80s" for a little enlightenment. After the oil bust and S&L crisis, downtown Dallas was 1/3 vacant. They could not give the land away. I lived in Dallas in the mid to late 80s. You sound like you weren't even born yet. I think I will trust my eyes over your imagination.

Why am I even responding to this drivel? I must be extraordinarily bored today. Time to go watch some football.

[Gary]

You may be from Dallas, but you have absolutely no knowledge of history whatsoever. Your statements bear no resemblance to reality. Google "Dallas real estate collapse 80s" for a little enlightenment. After the oil bust and S&L crisis, downtown Dallas was 1/3 vacant. They could not give the land away. I lived in Dallas in the mid to late 80s. You sound like you weren't even born yet. I think I will trust my eyes over your imagination.

Why am I even responding to this drivel? I must be extraordinarily bored today. Time to go watch some football.

[nucklehead]

All that office space in Downtown Dallas is vacant, hence the fewer employees. You should know that.

The percentage of empty office space in Las Colinas is not 0%. It is very close right now to the percentage of empty space downtown; so, I am still quite puzzled about the overall statistics.

[nucklehead]

Rose Hunt and Southland Life did build large office buildings to the north of downtown Dallas within the Uptown area, during the early 80's and before the crash.

Could I ask you to define some of the terms you use, please? What do you mean when you make a statement like, "absolutely no knowledge of history whatsoever," or "Your statements bear no resemblance to reality"?

I find such generalized statements really amusing.

[Trae]

The percentage of empty office space in Las Colinas is not 0%. It is very close right now to the percentage of empty space downtown; so, I am still quite puzzled about the overall statistics.

Who said it was 0%?

[Ethanra]

I know Houstonians hate to hear this because they like to think that the area of Midtown will some day develop as Uptown did in Dallas by just magically growing itself out of the ground.

Why are you trying to compare MT Houston to UT Dallas? Why don't you try to compare UT Houston to UT Dallas? UT Houston is even bigger then DT Dallas. If you want to compare MT Houston (which just started development over the past decade), why don't you try compare it to a similar hood in Dallas.

[dalparadise]

Why are you trying to compare MT Houston to UT Dallas? Why don't you try to compare UT Houston to UT Dallas? UT Houston is even bigger then DT Dallas. If you want to compare MT Houston (which just started development over the past decade), why don't you try compare it to a similar hood in Dallas.

Yeah -- the area around Fair Park and Deep Ellum is probably a better comparison to Midtown Houston in terms of challenges, momentum, proximity and promise.

[713 To 214]

Why are you trying to compare MT Houston to UT Dallas? Why don't you try to compare UT Houston to UT Dallas?

probably because the two are similar in regards to their geographical proximity to the respective DT areas.