Who Has Been To The Rio Grande Valley

[Boris]

La Plaza Mall in McAllen sells more per square feet than any other mall in the Simon Property inventory. Most of those shoppers are from Mexico.

If you look at the stats for McAllen, in retail, commercial, bank deposits, etc., it surpasses all other cities in Texas with similar population, except Laredo in the deposit and buidling permit areas (another border city by the way). Not bad for an area which you say has "low wages." Yes many people in the Valley are poor, but this is quickly changing.

It's really weird being originally from Brownsville and having to defend McAllen, but my loyalties are to the entire valley.

Yes, the maquiladora industry is present because of the low wages across the border, but there is more business going on on the border than just that.

Gosh, how do those low wage earners develop such projects in Monterrey?

[Boris]

Other projects in low wage northern Mexico (Monterrey).

Don't these low wage earners know they can't afford these things? Isn't stuff like this just for the northerners (north of the Valley)?

Also, that's Spanish in some of those photos by the way. Please don't feel offended or left out. It's just the culture.

[2112]

As I said before, I lived 20 years in Hidalgo/McAllen, and 20 in Houston. Maybe Niche doesnt think that is worth anything, but it does give me a somewhat balanced view: I have seen both sides of this thread's argument. In short, most of the anti-hispanic incidents I have encountered - and there are not many - were here in the Houston area. And all but about 2 incidents were just subtle innuendoes, nothing really major. Does this make me conclude that Houston is a racially divided city? Not at all. there are 5.5 million people, here, and the jerks I met add up to maybe 10 people over a 20 year span, tops. I am pretty sure I have met many more people than 10 in my years in Houston. For a city the size of Houston and with all the nationalities it has in it, Houston is quite a coehesive international city, with nothing of the type of racial devide that, say, Los Angeles has. Heck, I have run into more racial tension in Bayone New Jersey and Brooklyn, then in Houston and the RGV. But some would have you think that all northern cities are free of racial tension. That's wrong too. If you want it and look for it, you will find it, anywhere.

It seems Niche may have more of an issue with the depressed state of the economy of the RGV...it is still a very low-income area when compared with other U.S. MSAs. Sure, it has improved over the years, but it's no Houston or LA or Chicago. The economy is small. That's the way it is down there. So if the economy doesnt suit you then dont go there. That's what I did. But once thing I dont do is talk crap about the RGV based on some bad experience, I dont generalize about the general attitude of the population. There are about one million people there, total. And you come to your conclusions after meeting how many, total?

As I said, if you look for tension, you will find it, anywhere.

[2112]

There are a lot of other little things too, like the prolonged droughts, the lack of a freeway system (by the way, McAllen is a good example of how suburbs get built with or without freeways to support them), the traffic, the uppity Mexican nationals at La Plaza Mall, and that you almost can't function without the knowledge of at least rudimentary Spanglish...we're not talking about Castillian Spanish, either.

Castillian Spanish? This post baffles me. How does Castillian Spanish have anything to do with the Valley? It is well known that the dialeque known as "TexMex" or "Spanglish" or "Pocho", or whatever you want to call it, is an evolving system that has developed in the lower Valley for probably 100 years, maybe more. Heck, it's here in Houston and probably in most of Texas, wherever there is a U.S. hispanic populace. That's the the way human language works, it develops based on region, and it takes hundreds of years. You didnt really expect Castillian Spanish in the Valley, did you? That's spoken on the other side of the planet. Also, Spanish in Mexico City or Monterrey is not Castillian either. And last but not least: who cares? Just go find nice people there in the RGV, or anywhere. Trust me, there out there. Allow them into your life, and maybe yours into thiers, without any preconceived notions. People can sense preconseived notions in body language and innuendoes, and it will instantly put them into a defensive mode, something you might even label as racism. So dont do it. Just be nice and find good people. And the few jerks that you and all of us eventually meet, well, dont hang out with them. This is a lesson I learned here in Houston, and it has served me well. I'm sure it applies anywhere.

[TheNiche]

No, the economy is bad, but I don't have any problem at all with poor people. I have a fundamental problem with xenophobic people making up such a sizable portion of the population. I also have a problem with criminals and those with nepotistic tendencies, among other categories of undesireables.

I spent ten years there...I met plenty of people. Enough that I cannot count them. Moreover, I incorporate feedback from family and friends into my assessment of the area.

Here's the bottom line:

Not all people in the RGV are unlikable, but from my own extensive personal experiences, it is my opinion that there is a significant population of unlikable people that can make life difficult for a minority in a way that does not occur in Houston. To someone contemplating a move to the valley, my reviews are almost completely negative. That is my advice based upon my experiences. To tell them anything else would be dishonest.

Your own experiences may differ; that is fine. Hispanics able to speak Spanglish will be fine in the RGV...but I was not. My family was not. My non-Hispanic friends and pale-faced Hispanic friends were not. I consider my sample size of inputs to be large enough that my opinions are significant and valid.

I cannot speak for anti-Hispanic incidents except to say that the only ones that I've ever witnessed first-hand were in the RGV when one Hispanic assumed that I was also Hispanic because I lived there, and upon finding out that I didn't speak Spanglish, went on to verbally accost me thinking that I'd betrayed 'my' people. According to him my (nonexistant) Hispanic grandfather should have taken off his belt and whipped me. It was hilarious and distrubing in a single instant. In any case, I don't see how such incidents are relevent to the conversation. All I'm trying to say is that I don't like the RGV based upon my personal experiences. That's all. Don't take it personally.

[TheNiche]

Castillian Spanish? This post baffles me. How does Castillian Spanish have anything to do with the Valley? It is well known that the dialeque known as "TexMex" or "Spanglish" or "Pocho", or whatever you want to call it, is an evolving system that has developed in the lower Valley for probably 100 years, maybe more. Heck, it's here in Houston and probably in most of Texas, wherever there is a U.S. hispanic populace. That's the the way human language works, it develops based on region, and it takes hundreds of years. You didnt really expect Castillian Spanish in the Valley, did you? That's spoken on the other side of the planet. Also, Spanish in Mexico City or Monterrey is not Castillian either. And last but not least: who cares? Just go find nice people there in the RGV, or anywhere. Trust me, there out there. Allow them into your life, and maybe yours into thiers, without any preconceived notions. People can sense preconseived notions in body language and innuendoes, and it will instantly put them into a defensive mode, something you might even label as racism. So dont do it. Just be nice and find good people. And the few jerks that you and all of us eventually meet, well, dont hang out with them. This is a lesson I learned here in Houston, and it has served me well. I'm sure it applies anywhere.

The problem is that Castillian is what is taught. Try as a non-native person might to use the stuff that they learned in High School or college, from books on tape, or from a dictionary, Spanglish is hard to study for and seems only to be learnable through experience. But obtaining that experience, my dad figured out, is a process that involves a lot of criticism...frequently not polite constructive criticisms, either.

By the way, you don't seem to be getting it...my family tried to fit in and were largely turned away. We brought people into our home and our family's goings on, but were not brought into other peoples' lives. There was no reciprocation. Please don't assume so quickly that just because we weren't accepted, we must have done something wrong. Sometimes negative comments can be legitimate. I could even accept that the experiences of my family and non-Hispanic base of friends could be a fluke...just several non-Hispanic families among many thousands of others that got along just fine. In any case, what I tell you is my sincerest (and broadest) opinion. Take it as you will, but please don't take it personally.

[2112]

I guess the reason i am so baffled is that I know the place, intimately. And it is a very laid-back way of life. I co-existed with non-Hispanics in grade school, high school, after school...I can think of many non-Hispanics that were my friends. It was a very peaceful existence. Of course it was, we grew up together, listened to Rock and Roll, watched the same MTV, played the same video games, went to the same high school football games, cruised the same streets for chicks (I had very little success in that department, by the way). In short, I sensed nothing of what you described. Nothing. Now, I was very aware of the "bad asses" out there making trouble, and I just stayed away from them. But what city doesn

[2112]

And again, Castillian Spanish is used in Spain. It is not used in Mexico. That's like me learning French in school and wondering why no one in New Orleans can communicate with me.

[RedScare]

Interesting how one who speaks American English could bad-mouth anyone who misspeaks the European languages.

[2112]

I was refering to an unrealiztic expectation of hearing Castillian Spanish anywhere in and around Mexico, when it is not used there at all.

[RedScare]

Sorry about how it sounded, 2112, but I was agreeing with you. My remarks were aimed toward the huffy statements of the niche.

[Boris]

So, Niche, they speak the Queens English in Houston?

Here's one of my post on RGV7.com:

Niche please pay attention to the bottom part. Looks like north Texas folk are not as open minded as you might think when compared to your experience in the Valley.

__________________________

City welcomes back its heroes

Porter brings championship trophy to waiting fans

BY KEVIN GARCIA

The Brownsville Herald

They left town carrying the hopes and dreams of many in Brownsville, and the Cowboys returned as heroes.

Even at 2 a.m., when many families were getting a night

[TheNiche]

I guess the reason i am so baffled is that I know the place, intimately. And it is a very laid-back way of life. I co-existed with non-Hispanics in grade school, high school, after school...I can think of many non-Hispanics that were my friends. It was a very peaceful existence. Of course it was, we grew up together, listened to Rock and Roll, watched the same MTV, played the same video games, went to the same high school football games, cruised the same streets for chicks (I had very little success in that department, by the way). In short, I sensed nothing of what you described. Nothing. Now, I was very aware of the "bad asses" out there making trouble, and I just stayed away from them. But what city doesn

[Boris]

Fair enough.

Did you really make that pouty face?

[2112]

I sense that Niche is a nice person who had a bad experience, or two, or maybe three. And I certainly understand how THAT can make a person start LOOKING for signs of it, preemptively, almost to the point of seeing things that are not really there. I know this because I used to do it. But, with years, I realized that some of the crap I would percieve was just people having a little fun. Now, I reserve my defensivness for the true a-holes of the world, because they ARE out there. And I need to reserve my energies, and pick my fights. Thus, I have become more tolerant of what I used to percieve as subtle stereotyping and even mild racism.

Horale, es tiempo para pistar una vironga!

Te watcho.

[TheNiche]

And I certainly understand how THAT can make a person start LOOKING for signs of it, preemptively, almost to the point of seeing things that are not really there.

But its more than just me...all of my family members got a similar treatment. We've discussed it at length. Moreover, each of my family members has Hispanic and non-Hispanic friends...and the pattern seems to repeat among other non-Hispanics in our social network.

Perhaps the reason that you have such difficulty believing that this is a valid issue is that non-Hispanics won't discuss these kinds of issues with their Hispanic friends out of fear that discussions like the one that you and I are having will have to be settled. We don't want our Hispanic friends to take anything personally...and there's usually not anything that should be taken personally because as you suggested, it's never a good idea to hang out with A-holes. Still, the fear of losing friends is very real, and is what I think keeps this discussion largely muted.

[Boris]

Before anyone talks about racism in the Valley, you really need to read this story.

______________________________________________

Prosecutor: Teen attacked with pipe near death

By PEGGY O'HARE

Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

A judge this morning ordered that one of two Spring men accused in the vicious beating and sexual assault of a teenager be held without bail as the victim continues fighting for his life.

The 16-year-old victim, who was sodomized with a piece of rigid plastic pipe and was carved on the chest with a knife during a party at a Spring home last weekend, remains in extremely critical condition at Memorial Hermann Hospital.

During this morning's hearing, prosecutor Mike Trent told the judge that Tuck, of the 3400 block of Nutwood, was wearing steel-toed boots when he attacked the victim and kicked him in the head.

Tuck and others are accused of dragging the victim into the back yard and shoving a PVC pipe into his rectum, Trent said. Tuck is accused of then kicking the pipe with his boots, the prosecutor said.

"I don't mean just a little bit," Trent told McSpadden. "He kicked it in and shoved it so far in that he has caused major internal injuries and organ damage."

Detectives also told prosecutors they believe the attackers tried to carve something "racially offensive'' on the boy's chest during the assault, Trent said later outside the courtroom. "There's no question they were cutting him on the chest with a knife,'' Trent said.

As Trent spoke, Tuck stood before the judge's bench, dressed in the standard orange jail inmate's uniform.

The suspects also are accused of pouring bleach on the boy, although Trent could not say specifically which one is believed to have done that. Sheriff's detectives said the bleach was used in an attempt to destroy evidence.

The victim, who is Hispanic, also was subjected to slurs during the attack, investigators said. The two suspects are anglo.

_____________________________________

Any "racism" you may have experience in the Valley MrNiche pales in comparison to what this Hispanic boy went through here in the Houston area.

Here's the link to the story:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3824402.html

[deepsouthtexas]

This is the kind of ____ that makes his day.

"If they're dying of a gunshot wound, let them...that's a very good deterrent to coming here illegally." - theniche

[Boris]

Is that an actual quote from TheNiche, DST?

If so, where is that one posted?

[deepsouthtexas]

[url="http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/HAIF

[Boris]

Hey Niche, you think what they did to that boy will deter other Mexicans from comming over here? They left him there to die didn't they?

You and Danax must smile when you read stories like that, eh?

[torvald]

So, Niche, they speak the Queens English in Houston?

some do --- there's lots of expats over here.

Hey Niche, you think what they did to that boy will deter other Mexicans from comming over here? They left him there to die didn't they?

You and Danax must smile when you read stories like that, eh?

i think it is really foul to use that situation to prod someone on a forum.

certainly they meant no such thing and you are only using that horrible

act to be inflammatory.

[TheNiche]

Hey Niche, you think what they did to that boy will deter other Mexicans from comming over here? They left him there to die didn't they?

You and Danax must smile when you read stories like that, eh?

Your insensitive post could not have come at a more inappropriate time. Please read the following article posted eight hours ago on MSNBC. It was on the front page of today's edition of The Monitor, but I can't find an electronic copy. According to my mom (who, coincidentally, called me with the news only seconds after I'd finished reading your post), it was a lot more informative, but MSNBC will have to do:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12517789/

Daniel McKenna Sr. was my best friend's father. I saw him in Denton only a few weeks ago; he arrived at my friend's home only about an hour before I had to leave. We talked at a fair length about various things. That visit to his son was the last one, and I have to live with the guilt that by spending an hour talking to him, I'd deprived his son and my best friend of an hour of the last chance that he'd ever have to interact with his father.

He was among the kindest most honest people that I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. I know that sounds like the same pathos that everyone says about every other dead person, but I mean it sincerely. And the name may fool you, but he was Hispanic and he lived in McAllen. Trust me--there is no smile on my face...only the sober knowledge that this is the second person that I've known well to have taken their own life in the RGV. As you can imagine, my opinion on this subject is unchanged.

I realize that you think that I'm some sort of an emotionless monster. When it comes to government policy, you kind of have to be emotionless, if only out of respect for the budgets of those who would disagree with your own choices. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't spend my own money (what I had of it) to help out a person, regardless of their legal status. That doesn't mean that I don't believe in charity. I just don't want to dictate to other people what they can and cannot do with the money that they've earned; that's their choice. And if you'll read the rest of my posts in that thread, you'll see that I'm not some xenophobic nut...I like the idea of free movement of labor from Mexico and every other country into the US...I just want it to be fair and documented.

[nmainguy]

Is that an actual quote from TheNiche, DST?

If so, where is that one posted?

[url="http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/HAIF

[deepsouthtexas]

Trust me--there is no smile on my face...only the sober knowledge that this is the second person that I've known well to have taken their own life in the RGV. As you can imagine, my opinion on this subject is unchanged.

From the McAllen Monitor

http://www.themonitor.com/SiteProcessor.cf...4&Section=Local

She said her father had extremely bad allergies to all types of trees, grass, dust and even food. The illness kept him from doing the things he loved

[Boris]

Well Torvald, it's horrible what TheNiche said, isn't it?

TheNiche had been complaining about how he was treated in the Valley while going to school down there. As if that situation was unique to the Valley. Then we see this gruesome act over here, against a hispanic youth.

Well I'm am a hispanic from the Valley who now lives in Houston, and I don't remember anything occurring in the Valley against an anglo that comes close to what these two teenage anglos did to that hispanic kid.

I'm not trying to prod. If TheNiche did not really mean what he said, then why did he say it? Did he think it was cute? Did Danax think it was cute when he suggested Mexicans who come accross the border should be shot. He later tried to explain that comment, but it didn't wash.

What about the comments on the other thread that Mexicans should be eaten. You should have read the responses. As if it was a big joke to suggest a thing. Well, that's horrible to Torvald.

I read that article and can only think of my son who will be a teenager soon, and going to parties where he might meet up with kids like those two in Spring. That hispanic kid was beaten, kicked with a steel toed boot, carved up, and impaled (all the while with racial slurs being yelled at him) all because he had the audacity to kiss a white girl. Don't tell me about being Horrible Torvald.

[torvald]

From the McAllen Monitor:

[TheNiche]

From the McAllen Monitor

http://www.themonitor.com/SiteProcessor.cf...4&Section=Local

Thank you very much for posting the link. When I'd talked to him, he was indeed miserable. I wondered for an instant whether all these allergies were real or whether he'd just felt generally bad for so long that he could never feel ok ever again and was just allergic to life. At the time, he was talking about buying a home on the water in Port Isablel, hoping that the fresh sea breezes would help him to feel ok. I guess it didn't work.

TheNiche had been complaining about how he was treated in the Valley while going to school down there. As if that situation was unique to the Valley. Then we see this gruesome act over here, against a hispanic youth.

I didn't say that what those kids did was justified. I never advocated violence against anyone. Just because something heinous happens up here doesn't mean that I didn't get mistreated down there. Perhaps, compared to our local victim's plights, my comments are petty...but you know, that knowledge doesn't heal the wound. One massive wrong doesn't just cancel out another lesser wrong...they fester and feed upon the negative energies of one another.

If TheNiche did not really mean what he said, then why did he say it? Did he think it was cute? Did Danax think it was cute when he suggested Mexicans who come accross the border should be shot.

I never suggested that anybody be shot. I suggested that the GOVERNMENT and only the GOVERNMENT should not provide healthcare services. That doesn't prevent HCA from footing the bill, if they want to. That doesn't prevent an independent surgeon from footing the bill, if they want to. That doesn't prevent a non-profit organization from footing the bill, if they want to. That doesn't prevent me from administering initial treatment or calling on professionals that can provide further help, and I'd want to...but if my neighbor doesn't want to, then I can respect that, just as I can respect each of your opinions, no matter how misguided I may perceive them to be.

And folks, please don't dwell on a single quote. If you rip something out of its context, then of course it can sound bad...there's no justification behind it. I think that if you read all of what I've written as well as the responses, and you keep an open mind in the process, then you can get the idea that I'm not some racist monster. I never said that I was particularly good at coming up with soft rhetoric, but then I'm not a politician, and I'm not trying to manipulate you. I had an idea, and I laid the whole thing out in a way that I thought was pretty clear. If you have criticisms of the whole of the idea, then I'll address those. Otherwise, I'm not going to waste any more time repeating myself on this or the other topic.

[Boris]

Enough of this. There are high-rises, town centers and commercial development to discuss on the other threads.

I'll be over there.

Adios

[Scotch]

I lived in McAllen from 1998 to 2003. I liked some things about it there, but then would come across very backward mentalities that made me realize I needed to leave.

Around 2000, a young gay man was taken to a field and shot dead in the head, with no meaningful investigation. Also, people from north of the Valley would be shocked at the amount of bisexuality, incest and adultery that goes on down there.

That said, I wish I could have a second home down there to eat the food, visit friends and go party.