Unincorporated Areas To Incorporate? Fort Bend And Harris County Propose Bill

[MikeRichardson]

I used to walk to high school before I got a car. Our neighborhood, built in 2002, had sidewalks, but as soon as I got to Grant Road - nothing. My mom contacted some county official, probably the commisioner, around 2003.

 

In 2017 a sidewalk was finally installed. Partially - it terminates right before the school. Because that makes sense?

[Reefmonkey]

 

Here's another article about Des Moines that shows suburbs without sidewalks is not some unique Harris county thing:

 

https://www.mercedsunstar.com/news/nation-world/national/article116122278.html

 

"Like Windsor Heights, most of the disagreements are in neighborhoods built in the 1950s and 1960s that were designed to be different from the larger cities they border. The absence of sidewalks was intended to give the neighborhoods a rural appearance and more privacy at a time when walking for exercise was less common."

 

And one documenting the phenomenon in Minneapolis-St. Paul:

http://www.startribune.com/sidewalks-gain-in-suburbs-even-as-some-residents-protest/210719691/

 

"For proof of the fractured history of sidewalks in suburbia, look no further than Katherine McManus’ block of Zarthan Avenue in St. Louis Park.

On a street where children and parishioners walk to the school and church at the end of the block, the sidewalk simply stops at her property line and starts up again three homes down the street. Pedestrians veer into the sometimes-busy street to avoid walking on the grass.

'Walking dogs or having kids in the street seems ridiculously dangerous,' McManus said.

Once, cities had sidewalks and suburbs had lawns. Not anymore. Next week, the St. Louis Park City Council is expected to approve a 10-year plan to put a sidewalk within a quarter mile of every resident (fixing the Zarthan gap in 2016). Hopkins and Edina have programs to add sidewalks."

 

 

Trae, your premise is that you perceive unincorporated Harris County as so "very weird" and "different" from other metro areas where the suburbs are incorporated, and you blame lack of incorporation for that weirdness. One of those differences you perceive as being "specific" to Houston area is our suburbs' lack of sidewalks, but per above, that's obviously a nationwide phenomenon. Since your perception was not accurate in that respect, perhaps you should reexamine whether it might also be inaccurate in the other ways you find Houston area "weird" compared to other metro areas?

[Ross]

If the folks in the ETJ want to live in a city, it's easy. Just vote to be annexed by Houston. As for the taxes collected by Houston in the ETJ through strip annexation, it's great that those areas contribute something to Houston, where most of them work and use the streets. Not a lot different than me paying for their police protection from HCSO who will not respond to a call in the City of Houston.

[H-Town Man]

17 hours ago, Ross said:

If the folks in the ETJ want to live in a city, it's easy. Just vote to be annexed by Houston. As for the taxes collected by Houston in the ETJ through strip annexation, it's great that those areas contribute something to Houston, where most of them work and use the streets. Not a lot different than me paying for their police protection from HCSO who will not respond to a call in the City of Houston.

 

In what election does one vote to be annexed by a city? It's probably even easier for them to just incorporate on their own if state law allows. That has the added benefit that people in, say, Cypress can govern themselves in a way that best meets the needs and desires of Cypress without having to submit to the decisionmaking process of 2 million people who don't care anything about Cypress.

[Ross]

7 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

In what election does one vote to be annexed by a city? It's probably even easier for them to just incorporate on their own if state law allows. That has the added benefit that people in, say, Cypress can govern themselves in a way that best meets the needs and desires of Cypress without having to submit to the decisionmaking process of 2 million people who don't care anything about Cypress.

State law allows them to incorporate, as long as Houston gives permission. Which isn't going to happen, although Houston has allowed Katy, Pasadena, and Baytown to annex areas Houston didn't want.

 

I care about Cypress. As a source of funds to improve areas Inside the Loop😁

[H-Town Man]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 9:27 PM, Ross said:

State law allows them to incorporate, as long as Houston gives permission. Which isn't going to happen, although Houston has allowed Katy, Pasadena, and Baytown to annex areas Houston didn't want.

 

I care about Cypress. As a source of funds to improve areas Inside the Loop😁

 

Yes, the topic of this thread is an attempted modification of state law.

 

[Ross]

On 1/13/2019 at 11:54 AM, H-Town Man said:

 

Yes, the topic of this thread is an attempted modification of state law.

 

Which I am opposed to. If Cypress wants to incorporate, either beg Houston to allow it, or beg Houston to annex the area. There's no need for more cities to surround Houston and suck all the tax money out, which is what happened to Dallas. Houston would be stupid to allow itself to be surrounded.

[Reefmonkey]

3 hours ago, Ross said:

Which I am opposed to. If Cypress wants to incorporate, either beg Houston to allow it, or beg Houston to annex the area. There's no need for more cities to surround Houston and suck all the tax money out, which is what happened to Dallas. Houston would be stupid to allow itself to be surrounded.

Has Dallas really done all that badly?

[H-Town Man]

1 hour ago, Reefmonkey said:

Has Dallas really done all that badly?

 

Ross makes a fair point that Dallas has been strangled by its suburbs and unable to expand its tax base. This was a bigger issue in the late 20th century when all the growth was in the suburbs; now people and money are moving back to the core. One must consider what is best for the city as a whole. If your suburbs are a wasteland of disfigured development (extreme case, not saying ours are), it affects the whole city's image and makes companies less likely to relocate there. But you don't want to be landlocked either.

[Reefmonkey]

So, I'm wondering, and asking this of people on both sides of the issue, do you think people commuting from outside the city they don't live in burdens the city (ie road maintenance, etc) more than it helps it economically (ie, through having a large workforce to attract companies), and if so, what do you think is preferable:

 

A. A city being able to tax and/or annex an ETJ

 

B. A city being able to charge a commuter tax

[Ross]

20 hours ago, Reefmonkey said:

Has Dallas really done all that badly?

For decades, Dallas was not doing well at all. It's better now, but it's still vulnerable, as the city is completely landlocked. As are all of the incorporated entities around Dallas. We lived in Plano from 1969 to 1972. There were 16,000 people there then, with open fields everywhere. About 18 months ago, I read that the last open space in Plano was under development. There's no opportunity for growth in that situation.

[Reefmonkey]

Was that, though, conclusively attributable to being landlocked? The time period you are talking about is one where practically every city, including unlandlocked Houston, was suffering from urban decay and White Flight. 

 

And I’m not sure a city reaching the limits of its corporate boundaries and not being able to sprawl out more is the end of the world. At some point city planners need to adjust to the fact that low density sprawling suburbs were a bad idea. 

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

Dallas is one example, but it's doing ok.

Detroit and Philly are cities that are surrounded by incorporated suburbs, so they cannot grow and bring in additional tax revenue. They are also smaller geographically, and that's the key. If Houston was surrounded by a bunch of Bellaires, it would be screwed.

[zaphod]

I agree with everyone here - I'd favor more independent suburban cities and I don't think landlocking City of Houston is a problem in the year 2019, but on the other hand it doesn't seem like there is political will to create new suburban cities. I do think balkanization could paradoxically help with regional efforts because cities have resources they can contribute to council of governments(COG's), like NTCOG in Dallas.

 

Anyways, to take a step back here, what do we really want? Is it more local control? Is it "municipal lite" level of services and rules, even some simple zoning? I know Counties are very limited in their ability to pass ordinances, so zoning is out.

 

What are some outside the box solutions? What if Harris County was split into districts, which could differentiate somewhat on tax rates and also had the ability to do certain things benefitting the local area, while still cooperating as a whole for things that make sense?

 

 

[Montrose1100]

Although competition is healthy, I wouldn't want Sugar Land to suck up half of our Fortune 500 companies. The City of Houston and Harris County could use some refining in their budget, priorities, communications, and collaborations.

 

I don't think if Spring became it's own incorporated area it would turn into a Hallmark Movie's small town Downtown overnight (street lamps, beautification, sidewalks, blah blah). FM 2920 is much better looking than when I left it in 2007. FM 1960 is still a major eyesore, and the crack motels reign supreme near 45.

 

Either way, it is up to the citizens of these unincorporated areas to decide their fate. As for commuter tax, I say we push that to a vehicle tax. If a commuter is driving a reasonable weight and sized vehicle, less tax. If they are parading the streets in a tank/SUV, more taxes. Flat out ban jacked up trucks... just kidding. Just don't take up two lanes/parking spots because you have something to prove.

 

It would be interesting to see a study on what is utilized by commuters while working or whatever in the city, versus not. I would like to see some evidence on them "draining" taxes by living in the burbs before I say they deserve a commuter tax.

[cspwal]

Theoretically, the commuters are paying sales taxes on lunch and coffee in the city, as well as contributing to the value of businesses that are paying property tax

[Trae]

On 1/15/2019 at 4:44 PM, Ross said:

For decades, Dallas was not doing well at all. It's better now, but it's still vulnerable, as the city is completely landlocked. As are all of the incorporated entities around Dallas. We lived in Plano from 1969 to 1972. There were 16,000 people there then, with open fields everywhere. About 18 months ago, I read that the last open space in Plano was under development. There's no opportunity for growth in that situation.

Actually there is. Plano is now looking to redevelop older strip centers, dead malls, and some grassland/parking lots on these suburban office campuses into mixed-use developments. I do think smaller suburban cities will have a harder time, but major cities of Houston or Dallas' size should not have the same issues because there is more room.