Freeways to be tolled soon?

[Slick Vik]

Great news if this happens. Would shift the behavior of the population overnight.

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/article/Obama-transportation-plan-sent-to-Congress-5438254.php

[HoustonIsHome]

Car pools?

Driving is so darn expensive already

Car notes, insurance, Maintenance, high gas prices, now tolls?

[IronTiger]

Not necessarily, it would be up to states, and for specific purposes (reconstruction, etc.). Any change isn't for years away (barring lawsuits, etc.)

[Slick Vik]

It would be great for houston. Want to live in katy or cypress in your McMansions? Deal with the consequences.

[Slick Vik]

Also would finally force some good major alternative transportation gains

[IronTiger]

It would be great for houston. Want to live in katy or cypress in your McMansions? Deal with the consequences.

Yeah, that way companies would be incentivized to move out to the suburbs, like hospitals in Cypress or that new Exxon campus in the Woodlands.

Besides, you do know that Rick Perry and his pals were heading in this direction anyway, right?

[citykid09]

Also would finally force some good major alternative transportation gains

 

I totally agree. It is tragic to think that the Grand Parkway is getting built though and the already sprawled Houston will now suffer from even more.

[Slick Vik]

Also the 18 wheelers would finally have to pay their fair share

Yeah, that way companies would be incentivized to move out to the suburbs, like hospitals in Cypress or that new Exxon campus in the Woodlands.

Besides, you do know that Rick Perry and his pals were heading in this direction anyway, right?

Hospitals are everywhere. There are tolls in London but all the companies haven't left the center

[IronTiger]

Also the 18 wheelers would finally have to pay their fair share

The 18 wheelers do enormous damage to highways (moreso than cars), but remember that tolls are done usually by axles anyway. Finally, remember that truckers are a significant lobby in this type of things (just like the NRA). It has been suggested on HAIF that the teamsters would rather have trucks on the road than have freight trains go the distance.

Hospitals are everywhere.

not hospitals specifically, but the fact that a lot of the high-paying companies are moving to the suburbs.

Edited May 1, 2014 by IronTiger

[Slick Vik]

The 18 wheelers do enormous damage to highways (moreso than cars), but remember that tolls are done usually by axles anyway. Finally, remember that truckers are a significant lobby in this type of things (just like the NRA). It has been suggested on HAIF that the teamsters would rather have trucks on the road than have freight trains go the distance.

I believe you.

[HoustonIsHome]

Yeah, that way companies would be incentivized to move out to the suburbs, like hospitals in Cypress or that new Exxon campus in the Woodlands.

Besides, you do know that Rick Perry and his pals were heading in this direction anyway, right?

I can hear the sales pitch now. Avoid the traffic and the tolls, move to the boonies.

The space is tempting, but those areas are too generic for me.

Not hating on those who like it, but I like the inner loop amenities

Edited May 1, 2014 by HoustonIsHome

[Nate99]

It would be great for houston. Want to live in katy or cypress in your McMansions? Deal with the consequences.

 

Or Clear Lake or Kingwood, yeah, stick it to those suckers twice!

 

If you can't fund roads with existing gas taxes, raise them. Commuters should pay for their share of wear and tear through that; it is purely usage based and consumption generally increases with vehicle weight as does damage to the road. 

[Slick Vik]

Or Clear Lake or Kingwood, yeah, stick it to those suckers twice!

If you can't fund roads with existing gas taxes, raise them. Commuters should pay for their share of wear and tear through that; it is purely usage based and consumption generally increases with vehicle weight as does damage to the road.

Raising taxes is political suicide. Also there is the question of hybrids

[IronTiger]

Texas needs to raise the gas tax, as much as bad publicity it would be. That way, it's more of "invisible" (installing tolling facilities ain't free), everyone pays for it (provided they drive), and it encourages more efficient vehicles. Funds go to maintaining the roads, and the roads stay free. Sounds like a win-win for everybody.

[Slick Vik]

Texas needs to raise the gas tax, as much as bad publicity it would be. That way, it's more of "invisible" (installing tolling facilities ain't free), everyone pays for it (provided they drive), and it encourages more efficient vehicles. Funds go to maintaining the roads, and the roads stay free. Sounds like a win-win for everybody.

I agree but it's been 21 years

[Nate99]

Raising taxes is political suicide. Also there is the question of hybrids

 

Yeah, it all has to go through the political process one way or another though so someone will be pissed off no matter how you fund it. 

 

Hybrids are tiny, they do very little damage to anything. It's the trucks that tear stuff up disproportionately. 

 

I'm as much of a small government guy as you'll ever find, but we need to pay for the stuff we actually use. To the extent we can correlate it with usage and keep it efficient I'm ok with doing it that way personally. Cut out the BS from the budget and taxes elsewhere to offset. 

[samagon]

They should implement more of a European style tax when you buy a car. You're taxed on the weight of the vehicle and size of the engine, then there's a gas tax on that as well. The gas tax needs to be raised, it's never been this low of a percentage of the cost of a gallon of gasoline. As it's been said though, political suicide to anyone willing to do so.

[IronTiger]

I think one way to do it since a lot of the infrastructure strain is due to newcomers to Texas--a tax that slowly decreases depending on how long you've been a resident. This way, you avoid the sticky issues of punishing rich people and/or poor people, and you don't affect the people who are used to low taxes all that much.

[Nate99]

I think one way to do it since a lot of the infrastructure strain is due to newcomers to Texas--a tax that slowly decreases depending on how long you've been a resident. This way, you avoid the sticky issues of punishing rich people and/or poor people, and you don't affect the people who are used to low taxes all that much.

 

Other states do this with high registration fees on vehicles brought in from other states, which strikes me as skeevy, but then again, so do most political solutions. 

[samagon]

I think one way to do it since a lot of the infrastructure strain is due to newcomers to Texas--a tax that slowly decreases depending on how long you've been a resident. This way, you avoid the sticky issues of punishing rich people and/or poor people, and you don't affect the people who are used to low taxes all that much.

 

based off the percentage of time you've lived in the state! yes, I love it!

 

I've lived here 100% of my life, therefore I'd have a 0% tax!

 

Where can I vote for you?

[livincinco]

Also would finally force some good major alternative transportation gains

After all look at what happened when the Westpark toll road got built. The people rebelled, demanded alternative transportation, and now the Westpark sits there empty while the train that parallels it is completely full. Just like the Beltway, the Hardy toll road, the Fort Bend toll road. All empty because of the tolls.

[lockmat]

Nobody has said a thing about the Chronicle putting an AP story behind a pay wall. Really? 

[Slick Vik]

After all look at what happened when the Westpark toll road got built. The people rebelled, demanded alternative transportation, and now the Westpark sits there empty while the train that parallels it is completely full. Just like the Beltway, the Hardy toll road, the Fort Bend toll road. All empty because of the tolls.

If every freeway was a tollway the results would be different.

[IronTiger]

If every freeway was a tollway the results would be different.

Only rich people would drive on it? Or would you think it's "unfair" and demand subsidies for the less fortunate (much like food stamps), this defeating the whole purpose?

[infinite_jim]

Technically "raising the gas tax" would not actually be raising taxes as so much it would be restoring the original 1993 level of taxation that's been slowly eroded by nominal inflation coupled with more fuel efficient cars yielding something like an effective ~11 cent tax/gal. whereas it was ~18 cents/gal. in 1993 dollars. 

 

Related to the other thread regarding TX infrastructure; it looks like local gov'ts (i.e cities) have stepped up where the state won't and have sold bonds to finance improvements and maintenance. Personally I think debt leverage and private tollways are the way to go forward to alleviate congestion in this economic environment until electric cars and automation change the facts on the ground (which will be sooner than most realize).

 

As far as Obama's proposal, it looks like a shrewd way to get people to talk about infrastructure (potholes!) and the typical trolling of Republicans in an election year (remember the deportation executive order and the evolving on gay marriage) but it's not a serious proposal unto itself. He might as well put "freeways = socialism" for the proposal title. I still don't get why Republicans don't run on the fact that they've effectively cut gas taxes every year since 1993, that's a good thing, right?

 

 

Edited May 2, 2014 by infinite_jim

[IronTiger]

As far as Obama's proposal, it looks like a shrewd way to get people to talk about infrastructure (potholes!) and the typical trolling of Republicans in an election year (remember the deportation executive order and the evolving on gay marriage) but it's not a serious proposal unto itself. He might as well put "freeways = socialism" for the proposal title. I still don't get why Republicans don't run the fact that they've effectively cut gas taxes every year since 1993, that's a good thing, right?

Blow a bunch of smoke about toll roads, then blame Republicans for all the other things the bill did that they didn't pass? Smart move, I'd say.

Hopefully someone can pull a "reverse Culberson" and delete that bit.

[Slick Vik]

Only rich people would drive on it? Or would you think it's "unfair" and demand subsidies for the less fortunate (much like food stamps), this defeating the whole purpose?

More people would ride public transportation, demand a better system in general, and probably move closer to the city, or wherever their work may be.

[IronTiger]

Well, it might push people out of the city: a slightly lower paying job may be worth it, they may demand the new tolls to cease--either voting the people who put the tolls in place out of office, or with their feet.

But what am I saying, really? Why, they can tear down the Pierce Elevated tomorrow and all that traffic will evaporate like dew on a hot Texas summer.

[livincinco]

Nobody has said a thing about the Chronicle putting an AP story behind a pay wall. Really?

Hearst Media is a joke.

[arche_757]

Here's food for thought: Even with a daily toll of $1.75 just to go through one of the Sam Houston Tollways stations (on the main road) x 2 = $3 a day x 5 = $15 a week x 4 = $60 a month x 12 = $720 a year spent on tolls... and the drivers using the tollways have only increased.

 

That's one tollway.  Presumably if all major freeways were to be tolled then there would be likely a rate decrease in the cost of every toll?  At least initially.  I wouldn't think the totals for driving through these areas would break the bank.

 

The problem with implementing something like this in Houston... we have umpteen on ramps - far more so than any other city - which honestly is a good thing and traffic progressive I think.  So imagine placing tag stations or pay station all over?  And I would expect the true impact of this would be on the lower income drivers, forcing them onto the side streets and alternate routes - and on transit (to an extent).  I would doubt the initial program would cause transit ridership to jump dramatically.

 

To Slick Vic's point that people would be forced to move closer to work - either in or out of town - I think that's false.  $720 - $1400 a year on tolls is way lower than buying a new home and moving (assuming people could even move).  I commute about 25 miles or so each way every day - its a little longer than I would like, but the traffic isn't bad at all.  I would possibly move closer except my wife works very close to where we live, so there's a trade off...  I can't move closer without forcing my wife further away from her work.  In the end the move would be a zero-sum-game for us.  She could take a different job, or I could, but still its doubtful we would ever really work within a 5 mile radius of each other.  And that's today's working world.  Gone is the American Nuclear Family version where triumphant bread-winner Dad drives the family car to work in a tower Downtown while Mom stays home and manages the house.

Edited May 2, 2014 by arche_757