Freeways to be tolled soon?

[livincinco]

^^ Completely agree with your comments.

I think that it's also interesting that very few of our conversations regarding transit on this forum include either work from home or independent businesses which are two of the fastest growing trends in the country. The number of people that work from home is much higher than the number of people that use mass transit and is growing much faster as well. There's also a rapidly growing sector of independent business people that don't follow traditional commute patterns.

Those are both patterns that are likely to continue to grow as technology improves. I think that it's highly likely that the biggest result of tolls on roads would be an increase of 4/40 and 9/80 work plans, both of which have huge implications on transportation planning.

[arche_757]

^^ Completely agree with your comments.

I think that it's also interesting that very few of our conversations regarding transit on this forum include either work from home or independent businesses which are two of the fastest growing trends in the country. The number of people that work from home is much higher than the number of people that use mass transit and is growing much faster as well. There's also a rapidly growing sector of independent business people that don't follow traditional commute patterns.

Those are both patterns that are likely to continue to grow as technology improves. I think that it's highly likely that the biggest result of tolls on roads would be an increase of 4/40 and 9/80 work plans, both of which have huge implications on transportation planning.

 

I think you bring up some great points... We will witness in the next decade a sharp rise in home based offices as telecom advances have allowed us to work/live/play differently.  Imagine an ipad (or similar) with 500gb or 1tb?  Think of that.

 

I can easily see my work - small architectural firm - running a work out of home style business a couple days a week if transit became such a hassle.  Outside of office updates and the occasional call (which could be easily re-routed to cell or home lines) I don't really need to be in the office every day.  I imagine there are quite a few businesses like this out there as well.

 

Personally I wouldn't mind it.  Even a reduction of just 1 day at work would be a nice savings for me on the car.  The trick is accountability.  If employees would and can work well from home and accomplish what needs to be done, then that's possible, otherwise I think we may see a sharp decline in productivity.

[livincinco]

I think you bring up some great points... We will witness in the next decade a sharp rise in home based offices as telecom advances have allowed us to work/live/play differently. Imagine an ipad (or similar) with 500gb or 1tb? Think of that.

I can easily see my work - small architectural firm - running a work out of home style business a couple days a week if transit became such a hassle. Outside of office updates and the occasional call (which could be easily re-routed to cell or home lines) I don't really need to be in the office every day. I imagine there are quite a few businesses like this out there as well.

Personally I wouldn't mind it. Even a reduction of just 1 day at work would be a nice savings for me on the car. The trick is accountability. If employees would and can work well from home and accomplish what needs to be done, then that's possible, otherwise I think we may see a sharp decline in productivity.

A lot depends on the type of work that you're doing. In my opinion, the key is providing the financial incentive to workers to keep up productivity. I don't maintain an office for my business. Everyone works from home or onsite at a client and they all know that they share in the financial savings of not having an office. They get to live wherever they want as long as they can get to clients and get to pocket any cost of living savings that they gain as a result. They know they have a good deal which provides them tons of incentive to keep up productivity. However, it's a highly professional workforce that generally doesn't require a lot of watching in any scenario. Plenty of other offices have different situations.

There are definitely risks, but it can lead to huge increases in productivity if managed correctly. I personally would never want to go back to the traditional structure after living this way for a couple of years.

In the not so distant past, you used to have to hide the fact that you were at your house if you were on a conference call. In my experience, it's now a regular occurrence to hear kids and dogs in the background on calls. We made jokes about it and then just ask people to go on mute. Continuing increases in connectivity are just going to decrease costs related to conference calls and videoconferencing, while continuing to improve quality of those services.

[HoustonIsHome]

To Slick Vic's point that people would be forced to move closer to work - either in or out of town - I think that's false. $720 - $1400 a year on tolls is way lower than buying a new home and moving (assuming people could even move).

What if the tolls are the tipping point.

What if you consider a car note, gas, insurance and maintenance.

Car note - ~ $300 x 12= $3600

Gas- $100 x 12= $1200

Insurance- $1000

Maintenace- $400

Tolls- 1400

..................

Total $7600 / year

Lets assume the suburban home costs $275000, a 30 yr mortgage at 5% interest would run you about $1500 a month or 18,000 a year

So total suburban costs would be $25,600

Now let's assume we ditch the car and buy a house/ townhome or whatever within a few miles from downtown. Lets say Montrose. A $400k house would mean a mortgage of $2100 or $25200 a year. Add in $800 for transit and you get $26,000 that's only a $400 / year difference

77006 home values: http://www.har.com/neighborhoods/MONTROSE-subdivision-10261270010001.html

So I dunno. Those 700 to $1400 in tolls could be the tipping point.

[arche_757]

I'm saying that a lot of people already spend $700+ a year on tolls and it doesn't seem to matter much.  That's all.  I agree for quite a few that will be the tipping poing, but I doubt that it will cause a mass exodus to the core or next to other major job centers.

[livincinco]

What if the tolls are the tipping point.

What if you consider a car note, gas, insurance and maintenance.

Car note - ~ $300 x 12= $3600

Gas- $100 x 12= $1200

Insurance- $1000

Maintenace- $400

Tolls- 1400

..................

Total $7600 / year

Lets assume the suburban home costs $275000, a 30 yr mortgage at 5% interest would run you about $1500 a month or 18,000 a year

So total suburban costs would be $25,600

Now let's assume we ditch the car and buy a house/ townhome or whatever within a few miles from downtown. Lets say Montrose. A $400k house would mean a mortgage of $2100 or $25200 a year. Add in $800 for transit and you get $26,000 that's only a $400 / year difference

77006 home values: http://www.har.com/neighborhoods/MONTROSE-subdivision-10261270010001.html

So I dunno. Those 700 to $1400 in tolls could be the tipping point.

Could be, but that's very hypothetical. I also don't find the comparison between a $400,000 town home in Montrose and a $275,000 house in the suburbs to be particularly accurate. I think that you're understating the discrepancy in housing costs between the two areas.

[samagon]

I think you bring up some great points... We will witness in the next decade a sharp rise in home based offices as telecom advances have allowed us to work/live/play differently.  Imagine an ipad (or similar) with 500gb or 1tb?  Think of that.

 

I can easily see my work - small architectural firm - running a work out of home style business a couple days a week if transit became such a hassle.  Outside of office updates and the occasional call (which could be easily re-routed to cell or home lines) I don't really need to be in the office every day.  I imagine there are quite a few businesses like this out there as well.

 

Personally I wouldn't mind it.  Even a reduction of just 1 day at work would be a nice savings for me on the car.  The trick is accountability.  If employees would and can work well from home and accomplish what needs to be done, then that's possible, otherwise I think we may see a sharp decline in productivity.

 

That works well for work that can be done over a computer.

 

Someone who is assembling widgets can't really do that effectively from his home. So there's no work from home capability for 'blue collar' type jobs. Jobs where you have to work in a team environment, jobs where you are in the service industry. Work from home is a solution for a very small set of individuals.

 

Granted, a lot of the jobs I've mentioned, they're already on a 4/10 schedule, or non m-f 9-5 type schedule, so the impact is far less from them already.

 

I would like to see what would happen if they combined METRO and the HCTRA, I think that would be interesting, and possibly worth its own thread.

[livincinco]

That works well for work that can be done over a computer.

Someone who is assembling widgets can't really do that effectively from his home. So there's no work from home capability for 'blue collar' type jobs. Jobs where you have to work in a team environment, jobs where you are in the service industry. Work from home is a solution for a very small set of individuals.

Granted, a lot of the jobs I've mentioned, they're already on a 4/10 schedule, or non m-f 9-5 type schedule, so the impact is far less from them already.

I would like to see what would happen if they combined METRO and the HCTRA, I think that would be interesting, and possibly worth its own thread.

That makes sense, but I think that most of those jobs are already outside the loop anyway. Most of the light industrial/manufacturing type jobs are out on the beltway or other such areas. The ones that are in the core will probably move as land prices continue to increase.

[HoustonIsHome]

I'm saying that a lot of people already spend $700+ a year on tolls and it doesn't seem to matter much. That's all. I agree for quite a few that will be the tipping poing, but I doubt that it will cause a mass exodus to the core or next to other major job centers.

I understand what you are saying, and never hunted at an exodus of any kind.

Over the last few decades the fringes of the urban sprawl (or new subdivisions) have been exceedingly attractive. Cheap homes that are low cost overcame location. What I am saying, is location may become more of an issue with added road costs.

Side note, have you been on the beltway between 290 and 249 @ 5pm recently? Looks like that strip needs a couple of tolls

[Slick Vik]

That works well for work that can be done over a computer.

Someone who is assembling widgets can't really do that effectively from his home. So there's no work from home capability for 'blue collar' type jobs. Jobs where you have to work in a team environment, jobs where you are in the service industry. Work from home is a solution for a very small set of individuals.

Granted, a lot of the jobs I've mentioned, they're already on a 4/10 schedule, or non m-f 9-5 type schedule, so the impact is far less from them already.

I would like to see what would happen if they combined METRO and the HCTRA, I think that would be interesting, and possibly worth its own thread.

This. Working from home is only an option for a small set of individuals. I also think that $700 is an understated number. What if you have to pay a toll to get on and off a ramp? Those have to be added in. Then the price of gas, maintenance, insurance, registration, and the fact that every mile you drive your car is closer to its end. And the purchase of the car in the first place. Putting additional tolls on all this will change behavior.

[arche_757]

This. Working from home is only an option for a small set of individuals. I also think that $700 is an understated number. What if you have to pay a toll to get on and off a ramp? Those have to be added in. Then the price of gas, maintenance, insurance, registration, and the fact that every mile you drive your car is closer to its end. And the purchase of the car in the first place. Putting additional tolls on all this will change behavior.

 

The $700 figure was what I used for when I travel on the toll road from I-45 to 290.  There is one plaza, one toll.  It is $1.75.  Sure there are other fees that other drivers pay, but generally the tolls are set up so most only pay the one plaza fee + maybe an on ramp fee.

 

Its not the biggest figure, but its a fine enough figure to do the math.  Multiply it x 2 or 3 and then run the figures again and I'll still wager the number won't be enough of an impact to really change things very much.

 

I see you glazed right over my point earlier about my work commute + the commute of my wife.  Right now she is 3 miles from work (probably almost* an idyllic number for many) and I'm 25 miles from my work.  If we moved closer to my work she would be further... which would result in zero gain on anything commute+mileage wise.  There are likely many people that have similar work options where one partner works fairly close while another commutes.  It is not ideal, but it is realistic.

 

I understand where you are coming from Slick - I do - you and I agree on transit and the desire for an overall denser city.  I don't think we see eye-to-eye on the idea of livability.  As someone who used to SCREAM that its the urban way or the highway I can see both sides very clearly.  I used to insist that I would never live outside the Loop.  Life happens, reality changes perception and while the Inner Loop is still great and the epicenter of all things in this whole region, I've been faced with working elsewhere and having to become one of "them" and locate myself outside the core.

[Slick Vik]

The $700 figure was what I used for when I travel on the toll road from I-45 to 290. There is one plaza, one toll. It is $1.75. Sure there are other fees that other drivers pay, but generally the tolls are set up so most only pay the one plaza fee + maybe an on ramp fee.

Its not the biggest figure, but its a fine enough figure to do the math. Multiply it x 2 or 3 and then run the figures again and I'll still wager the number won't be enough of an impact to really change things very much.

I see you glazed right over my point earlier about my work commute + the commute of my wife. Right now she is 3 miles from work (probably almost* an idyllic number for many) and I'm 25 miles from my work. If we moved closer to my work she would be further... which would result in zero gain on anything commute+mileage wise. There are likely many people that have similar work options where one partner works fairly close while another commutes. It is not ideal, but it is realistic.

I understand where you are coming from Slick - I do - you and I agree on transit and the desire for an overall denser city. I don't think we see eye-to-eye on the idea of livability. As someone who used to SCREAM that its the urban way or the highway I can see both sides very clearly. I used to insist that I would never live outside the Loop. Life happens, reality changes perception and while the Inner Loop is still great and the epicenter of all things in this whole region, I've been faced with working elsewhere and having to become one of "them" and locate myself outside the core.

Wouldn't that $1.75 be doubled for a two way trip? As far as the rest of your post, fair enough.

[arche_757]

Wouldn't that $1.75 be doubled for a two way trip? As far as the rest of your post, fair enough.

 

I thought I did?

 

$1.75 x 2 = $3 per day

$3 x 5 = $15 per week

$15 x 4 = $60 per month

$60 x 12 = $720 a year

 

 

That's just a single toll plaza exchange on the North Sam Houston tollway.  Some on-ramps have a lower charge of $0.75 per axle.  And there are some free on-ramps (quite a few in fact).

 

In all likelihood the average Houston tollroad user spends $1000 a year... if all freeways were pay for use then I would expect that number (in the early years) would be double that at around $2000.  Eventually it would increase in cost and eventually it would reduce the number of people who would drive on those freeways.

 

Something that might be easier to implement:  A workplace toll.  The government would ask employers to simply take out an additional tax (like social security, medicare, federal income tax) that would charge people a fee off of how far removed from work they are.  Those fees would be nonexistent for people who live 5 miles from work.  10 miles out they would be $100 a year, 15 $150 a year, 20 $200 a year and so on.  Maybe that's the way to go?  Those fees would then be used strictly for road/bridge/infrastructure repairs.  The less you drive and use infrastructure the less you would pay for them.  Maybe you get a sort of tax refund if you use transit?  Just a thought.  Not sure what others might think of that?

[IronTiger]

Something that might be easier to implement: A workplace toll. The government would ask employers to simply take out an additional tax (like social security, medicare, federal income tax) that would charge people a fee off of how far removed from work they are. Those fees would be nonexistent for people who live 5 miles from work. 10 miles out they would be $100 a year, 15 $150 a year, 20 $200 a year and so on. Maybe that's the way to go? Those fees would then be used strictly for road/bridge/infrastructure repairs. The less you drive and use infrastructure the less you would pay for them. Maybe you get a sort of tax refund if you use transit? Just a thought. Not sure what others might think of that?

That's not particularly good because the farther you commute out does not mean you're richer, otherwise we'd have more super-wealthy subdivisions in the far exclaves.

Edited May 2, 2014 by IronTiger

[arche_757]

That's not particularly good because the farther you commute out does not mean you're richer, otherwise we'd have more super-wealthy subdivisions in the far exclaves.

 

Didn't say that - never mentioned wealth.  Its just taxing people based on how far they commute.  And its not an exorbitant rate like the tolls would eventually be.  A flat - no frills tax that's easy to round and the money used only* for infrastructure repairs.

 

Presumably most River Oaks residents wouldn't ever pay tolls for the roads either.  So there's that.

Edited May 2, 2014 by arche_757

[IronTiger]

I really have nothing against the rich and am not out to squeeze as much money out of them. I wish that the tolls in Katy Freeway were congestion pricing-based like they were supposed to be, though.

[Slick Vik]

Didn't say that - never mentioned wealth. Its just taxing people based on how far they commute. And its not an exorbitant rate like the tolls would eventually be. A flat - no frills tax that's easy to round and the money used only* for infrastructure repairs.

Presumably most River Oaks residents wouldn't ever pay tolls for the roads either. So there's that.

Punishing sprawl. Sounds good to me

[democide]

Taxes have become the way to screw the "little people," control them, rob them, and even punish them (as some want to do here).  So no matter how you spin it, I will never support this.  This is far and beyond an abuse by our government at all levels.  If we don't have enough funds, cut costs, stop inflation and let's work to build a better economy.

 

If you want people to use public transit, why not come up with a transit option what will make people want to use it?  People will use it, when they choose to because they know it works (fast, safe, efficient, saves them money, etc.).  Or how about better urban planning?  I just don't believe in cornering people financially to make them do something.

[gmac]

I drive about 15K miles a year, mostly on suburban and Houston roads/streets. I could live with paying a penny a mile to a fund to help repair roads. That's $150 a year on top of the gas tax I already pay.

 

We also need to make sure that transit users are paying enough to avoid huge subsidies.

[livincinco]

I drive about 15K miles a year, mostly on suburban and Houston roads/streets. I could live with paying a penny a mile to a fund to help repair roads. That's $150 a year on top of the gas tax I already pay.

We also need to make sure that transit users are paying enough to avoid huge subsidies.

Agreed. Part of the reason that there's a deficit in the funding from the current gas tax is because $10 billion annually gets diverted from road construction to subsidize mass transit. At that point, it ceases to be a use tax.

[plumber2]

The 18 wheelers do enormous damage to highways (moreso than cars), but remember that tolls are done usually by axles anyway. Finally, remember that truckers are a significant lobby in this type of things (just like the NRA). It has been suggested on HAIF that the teamsters would rather have trucks on the road than have freight trains go the distance.

not hospitals specifically, but the fact that a lot of the high-paying companies are moving to the suburbs.

Blame unions for increased tool roads? I don't think any current Texas politician would listen to, promote, or have anything to do with a  union cause these days.

[Slick Vik]

Agreed. Part of the reason that there's a deficit in the funding from the current gas tax is because $10 billion annually gets diverted from road construction to subsidize mass transit. At that point, it ceases to be a use tax.

So I assume you would be against 25% of metro tax going to roads also.

Also the bigger reason of the gas tax not being enough is inflation over time.

[mollusk]

The METRO 25% revenue diversion to the city was a Lanier dodge to underfund METRO and keep the city tax rate lower.  Buses do beat the living daylights out of streets, but I've never seen any tracking on how much of that transfer actually gets spent on streets.

 

The Texas portion of the gas tax has been 20¢ since 1991.  Had it been indexed to inflation, it would now be roughly 35¢.

 

Tolling the daylights out of everything is just another tax - but it's a tax that doesn't get assessed by any body that we actually get to vote for (or against).

[livincinco]

So I assume you would be against 25% of metro tax going to roads also.

Also the bigger reason of the gas tax not being enough is inflation over time.

I am against the 25% of METRO tax going to roads and agree that the gas tax should have been indexed to inflation so that it would adequately cover the cost of roads. Both are politicians distorting the system to achieve their own goals.

Where we disagree is that I don't believe an accurately indexed gas tax would significantly impact behavior. I think it more likely would result in better maintained roads that would increase mobility and reduce congestion.

[Slick Vik]

I am against the 25% of METRO tax going to roads and agree that the gas tax should have been indexed to inflation so that it would adequately cover the cost of roads. Both are politicians distorting the system to achieve their own goals.

Where we disagree is that I don't believe an accurately indexed gas tax would significantly impact behavior. I think it more likely would result in better maintained roads that would increase mobility and reduce congestion.

How would congestion be reduced if behavior wasn't impacted?

[IronTiger]

How would congestion be reduced if behavior wasn't impacted?

Well, bad roads can cause more accidents, accidents cause congestion, gas tax can help improve roads, so therefore (in theory) higher gas tax = lower congestion.

[Ross]

How would congestion be reduced if behavior wasn't impacted?

 

 

when MF1960 was widened from 2 lanes to it's present size, congestion was greatly decreased. If you think it' bad now, you should have seen it before.Increasing surface street capacity can reduce congestion.

 

[livincinco]

when MF1960 was widened from 2 lanes to it's present size, congestion was greatly decreased. If you think it' bad now, you should have seen it before.Increasing surface street capacity can reduce congestion.

 

Remember - by Vik's logic, increasing capacity increases congestion and reducing capacity decreases congestion.

[Slick Vik]

Remember - by Vik's logic, increasing capacity increases congestion and reducing capacity decreases congestion.

This is true and not only my logic.

But nobody answered my original question if gas tax goes towards strictly maintenance how would congestion decrease?

[livincinco]

But nobody answered my original question if gas tax goes towards strictly maintenance how would congestion decrease?

 

That's because we all thought that most reasonably coherent people could make that connection on their own.

 

Driving on poorly maintained roads decreases the average speed and the potential capacity of a road.

 

http://texas2030committee.tamu.edu/documents/final_03-2011_summary.pdf