Commuter Rail in Houston

[IronTiger]

As far as density yes there are similar cities like Dallas, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Seattle, Portland, and Denver that are all making huge investments particularly Denver.

Again, bad examples...and many of those don't have spread-out job centers like Houston does.

As far as LA get back to me when the three lines it's building now are done, it will have some impact.

L.A. has more miles of rail-based transit than Houston does...when will it be "enough"?

I don't have some fantasy that the inner loop should resemble Manhattan but it is becoming more of a "city."

That was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, admittedly, but with your ideas like eliminating parking requirements, setbacks, and urban highways like the Pierce Elevated (and I'm pretty sure that when I last mentioned it you were still seriously into the idea--I was hoping you'd save face and admitted that it while would be nice if it were gone, removing it is just not feasible) it sure seemed that way.

[Slick Vik]

1. When the expo, Crenshaw, and Westwood lines are complete an a link to LAX.

2. I'm using density numbers.

3. Do you think eliminating the pierce and parking requirements would be a mutation of houston? I don't but I think it's a step in the right direction but even those ideas are shot down as too extreme.

[IronTiger]

1. When the expo, Crenshaw, and Westwood lines are complete an a link to LAX.

DART is in the process of adding a line to the rail. Do you think that magically their numbers will increase even twofold?

2. I'm using density numbers.

Especially using averages, it doesn't take into account where people are and where job centers are.

3. Do you think eliminating the pierce and parking requirements would be a mutation of houston? I don't but I think it's a step in the right direction but even those ideas are shot down as too extreme.

Yeah, I do. For someone who has great plans of a more effective transportation network, removing the Pierce is a horrible idea and yet you still accept that as a realistic idea whether by naïvety or stubbornness.

[Slick Vik]

Please research what LA is doing and get back to me. And yes I do think removing the pierce is beneficial to the city. Fear won't suppress my argument.

[IronTiger]

And yes I do think removing the pierce is beneficial to the city. Fear won't suppress my argument.

It amuses me that you think that arguments for not removing the Pierce Elevated is fear-mongering.

[Slick Vik]

It amuses me that you think that arguments for not removing the Pierce Elevated is fear-mongering.

It is. When it was being rebuilt it wasn't Armageddon. Routes adjust. There's no point of having a north south freeway through downtown. A lot of those cars could be rerouted through 610 if they aren't going through downtown at all or 59 to 10 to 45 if the exit is between downtown and 610, which is probably a small percentage of the traffic.

[Ross]

It is. When it was being rebuilt it wasn't Armageddon. Routes adjust. There's no point of having a north south freeway through downtown. A lot of those cars could be rerouted through 610 if they aren't going through downtown at all or 59 to 10 to 45 if the exit is between downtown and 610, which is probably a small percentage of the traffic.

 

It wasn't Armageddon during the rebuild because only one direction at a time was rerouted. Routing all of the traffic to the surface would be a bad choice. Remocing the Pierce owuld do absolutely nothing to make the area better, it takes up a minimal amount of space, and is less of a barrier than any of the rail lines you constantly mention. I have never been prevented from following my desired path by the Pierce. Rail, however, has forced me to reroute my journeys on numerous occasions, because there are many cross streets that dead end at the rail.

 

From a few quick measurements, it appears that forcing travelers onto 610 adds at least 5 miles to a trip, more if your journey starts inside the Loop.

 

[Slick Vik]

It wasn't Armageddon during the rebuild because only one direction at a time was rerouted. Routing all of the traffic to the surface would be a bad choice. Remocing the Pierce owuld do absolutely nothing to make the area better, it takes up a minimal amount of space, and is less of a barrier than any of the rail lines you constantly mention. I have never been prevented from following my desired path by the Pierce. Rail, however, has forced me to reroute my journeys on numerous occasions, because there are many cross streets that dead end at the rail.

From a few quick measurements, it appears that forcing travelers onto 610 adds at least 5 miles to a trip, more if your journey starts inside the Loop.

Who says they have to take surface? They could still take 59 north unless that was taken away too. And like I said if cars are just going through downtown what does that add to downtown? Nothing just noise and literal pollution.

If you think pierce isn't a barrier take a walk from smith to Hamilton right now and see who if anyone is hanging around the area beneath and around pierce elevated. Rail lines making you take a slightly different route isn't as big a deal as you say you are just used to everything being tailored to your convenience. I don't think city planning should be based on the convenience of Ross's whims.

[IronTiger]

If you think pierce isn't a barrier take a walk from smith to Hamilton right now and see who if anyone is hanging around the area beneath and around pierce elevated.

According to the Chron, the area under the Pierce Elevated was basically a homeless camp with dozens there on a Friday night back in the 1980s. You could have a great "urban" experience back then!

[Slick Vik]

According to the Chron, the area under the Pierce Elevated was basically a homeless camp with dozens there on a Friday night back in the 1980s. You could have a great "urban" experience back then!

That isn't "urban" cowboy it's being under a six lane highway.

[Ross]

Who says they have to take surface? They could still take 59 north unless that was taken away too. And like I said if cars are just going through downtown what does that add to downtown? Nothing just noise and literal pollution.

If you think pierce isn't a barrier take a walk from smith to Hamilton right now and see who if anyone is hanging around the area beneath and around pierce elevated. Rail lines making you take a slightly different route isn't as big a deal as you say you are just used to everything being tailored to your convenience. I don't think city planning should be based on the convenience of Ross's whims.

It isn't about my convenience. It's about the travel patterns of hundreds of thousands of people. I merely use my own journeys as an example of potential impacts. There are lots of folks taking trips similar to mine that would be negatively affected by any changes to freeway routing in Houston. It doesn't make sense to do that just so Vik can walk across one block of Houston without having to deal with an invisible barrier.

[Slick Vik]

It isn't about my convenience. It's about the travel patterns of hundreds of thousands of people. I merely use my own journeys as an example of potential impacts. There are lots of folks taking trips similar to mine that would be negatively affected by any changes to freeway routing in Houston. It doesn't make sense to do that just so Vik can walk across one block of Houston without having to deal with an invisible barrier.

 

There are consequences but there would be benefits as well. First of all, that land would be developed. More towers = more property taxes for a city that is constantly in debt. Also it could be used for park land, which is always good. And finally, there wouldn't be a barrier between Midtown and Downtown anymore so pedestrian activity would increase. It is shocking to me how a car dominated city won't even give up a small strip; that's what happens when everything is built to accomodate cars and nothing else. But I have a vision and others do too despite the best efforts of you and others trying to demonize it.

[IronTiger]

It is shocking to me how a car dominated city won't even give up a small strip

A woeful statement, which demonstrates how naïve you are about this still.

[Slick Vik]

A woeful statement, which demonstrates how naïve you are about this still.

 

I'm not naive about this, it's realistic, it's happened, is happening, and will continue to happen. You can't see outside the present and even consider other ideas, I can.

[JLWM8609]

And finally, there wouldn't be a barrier between Midtown and Downtown anymore so pedestrian activity would increase.

 

Midtown must be full of gephyrophobiacs. A freeway overpass has never been a barrier to me as a pedestrian. If an overpass is such a barrier, there shouldn't be students walking underneath I-10 to UHD from student parking. The I-45 overpass doesn't seem to stop people from using the Columbia Tap Rails to Trails Hike and Bike Trail, and 288 (which has one of the widest ROWs for inner loop freeways) doesn't stop me from using the Brays Bayou Hike and Bike Trail.

[IronTiger]

I'm not naive about this, it's realistic, it's happened, is happening, and will continue to happen. You can't see outside the present and even consider other ideas, I can.

Awesome, we're down to using falsehoods (the freeway removals you state that have actually happened--and please don't use citizens proposals as "in the planning process", because you're just trying to inflate your purpose--have either demolished pre-Interstate highways, highways that were compromised by earthquakes and were stubs anyway, or the like--even that freeway in SK wasn't a vital artery and didn't carry nearly the amount of traffic wider surface streets did) and insults (this "I'm a visionary, you're a peasant who can't see the past the present" nonsense).

Besides, your beloved light rail takes you safely to either end.

[eikonal]

I am curious about the status of Houston Galveston passenger rail. There was a lot of enthusiasm for it before 2008, but the latest I could find now is this article in Houston Chronicle from summer 2012 http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Houston-Galveston-passenger-rail-may-be-revived-3747946.php. So is there any current activity on it or is the idea completely dead for now?

[IronTiger]

As much as I'd love to see commuter rail to Galveston, I think it would work only as part of a wider, metro-plus-wide system and how it actually would stack up against Interstate 45 (freeway construction makes that sort of thing appealing, I admit), as Galveston isn't a suburb to Houston but rather a satellite city much like Beaumont or College Station would be (granted, closer to Houston than either of those) that can operate on its own accord (unfortunately, Conroe isn't large enough to hold its own weight, which is why I didn't count it).

[Slick Vik]

It's under study. Beaumont and college station aren't 60 miles away from downtown, invalid comparisons. Also a lot of people from clear lake and south of that commute to galveston.

[IronTiger]

It's under study. Beaumont and college station aren't 60 miles away from downtown, invalid comparisons. Also a lot of people from clear lake and south of that commute to galveston.

 

They are valid comparisons if you're actually looking at commuter rail destinations (notice I already said that Galveston is closer to either). Of course people commute to Houston from Galveston and vice versa, but also those two cities too. But they're not suburbs either. These cities are all unique in that they both have people that commute regularly but are real self-contained cities in their own right and will become more important as the Houston sphere of influence grows.

[Slick Vik]

They are valid comparisons if you're actually looking at commuter rail destinations (notice I already said that Galveston is closer to either). Of course people commute to Houston from Galveston and vice versa, but also those two cities too. But they're not suburbs either. These cities are all unique in that they both have people that commute regularly but are real self-contained cities in their own right and will become more important as the Houston sphere of influence grows.

How many people commute from college station and Beaumont to houston as compared to people that commute into and out of galveston? That's not a comparable comparison at all.

[IronTiger]

How many people commute from college station and Beaumont to houston as compared to people that commute into and out of galveston? That's not a comparable comparison at all.

I don't have any hard numbers, but it's a significant number. I'm guessing you don't have hard numbers on that either.

 

Since I don't know what the numbers are, I'm not really arguing either way.

[Slick Vik]

I don't have any hard numbers, but it's a significant number. I'm guessing you don't have hard numbers on that either.

Since I don't know what the numbers are, I'm not really arguing either way.

There are enough that commute from league city/Dickinson/clear lake that there is an island transit system that takes commuters in and out. And of course the metro park and ride system that takes people downtown. So presumably commuter rail would have sufficient ridership north and south in the mornings and the opposite in the evenings with limited trains on weekends for tourists to galveston.

[august948]

It's under study. Beaumont and college station aren't 60 miles away from downtown, invalid comparisons. Also a lot of people from clear lake and south of that commute to galveston.

 

Not everyone works in downtown.  College Station to The Woodlands is 70 miles and Beaumont to Baytown is 65.

 

[Houston19514]

I don't have any hard numbers, but it's a significant number. I'm guessing you don't have hard numbers on that either.

 

Since I don't know what the numbers are, I'm not really arguing either way.

 

I don't have hard numbers either, but unlike Beaumont and College Station, Galveston is part of the Houston metropolitan area.  By definition, therefore, there is significantly more commuting back and forth between Galveston/Houston as compared to Beaumont or College Station.

[Slick Vik]

Not everyone works in downtown. College Station to The Woodlands is 70 miles and Beaumont to Baytown is 65.

Everyone in college station that commutes works in the woodlands, and Beaumont in Baytown?

Also do you seriously consider 130 miles a feasible daily commute?

[IronTiger]

The Northeast Metro with its vast commuter rail system (which you, SV, love the idea of) stretches from DC to NYC in about 200 miles alone and there are people who travel a long distance, mostly rail-based, for their commute. However, you are correct in that at the density we have right now that won't work, which isn't why I'm pushing it. A Galveston-Houston line COULD be the start of a larger system, and it would be relatively cheap to start one and see how that actually works out.

[Slick Vik]

The Northeast Metro with its vast commuter rail system (which you, SV, love the idea of) stretches from DC to NYC in about 200 miles alone and there are people who travel a long distance, mostly rail-based, for their commute. However, you are correct in that at the density we have right now that won't work, which isn't why I'm pushing it. A Galveston-Houston line COULD be the start of a larger system, and it would be relatively cheap to start one and see how that actually works out.

Big difference between riding a train and driving.

Also the one issue with galveston houston is where would the downtown station be? Hopefully once the bullet train station is decided it could pull into there.

I never said it wouldn't work. Look at what Denver is doing with similar density.

[IronTiger]

Correction: "which is why I'm NOT pushing it"

[august948]

Everyone in college station that commutes works in the woodlands, and Beaumont in Baytown?

Also do you seriously consider 130 miles a feasible daily commute?

 

I don't believe I said that.  Surely you are aware, though, that there are major employment centers outside downtown, right?  I gave those as examples of how it's not really that far.  60 to 70 miles from either place is mostly freeway making the commute an hour to an hour and a half.  Making the commute from downtown to Katy or The Woodlands can take that long so it's not really unfeasible.  Believe it or not some people prefer to live in the country where they can have a large piece of land and a large house at a very reasonable price and just drive to the nearest big city to work.  It's more common than you appear to realize.