U.S. transportation chief: Houston needs to 'get its act together' on light rail

[Slick Vik]

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood likes Houston's light rail that's up and running but warns that regional transit officials have squandered opportunities the past decade by not building greater consensus.

 

"The region needs to get its act together," LaHood said during a brief question and answer session after an unrelated news conference Wednesday in Houston.

 

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http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/U-S-transportation-chief-Houston-needs-to-get-4481101.php

 

 

please do not post entire articles.  it is copyright infringement and you place HAIF at risk for lawsuits. article deleted by moderator. 

[nativehoustonion]

Culberson is just a b----!

[Houston19514]

Slick Vic is right on top of things as usual...   That statement and article are 7 1/2 months old.

[arche_757]

Not to defend Slick Vick but... Where else in this forum was that article posted?

 

Old news is still new news to those who've never read it.

[Houston19514]

Not to defend Slick Vick but... Where else in this forum was that article posted?

 

Old news is still new news to those who've never read it.

 

Sorry, but old news is old news. 

 

And posting entire articles is a violation of the forum rules and of the publication's copyrights (in this case the Houston Chronicle.)

[arche_757]

^Old news in the sens that it is no longer current, or breaking, but new information to those who've not read it.  Any way, not trying to argue...

 

Didn't know it was a violation of the forum rules.  Good to know in case I ever were to post an article.

[Slick Vik]

Sorry, but old news is old news.

And posting entire articles is a violation of the forum rules and of the publication's copyrights (in this case the Houston Chronicle.)

You're right I'm trying to edit the post but it won't let me

^Old news in the sens that it is no longer current, or breaking, but new information to those who've not read it. Any way, not trying to argue...

Didn't know it was a violation of the forum rules. Good to know in case I ever were to post an article.

Agreed and it's still relevant. However the suburbs shot themselves in the foot with last years referendum.

[Howard Huge]

Sorry, but old news is old news.

And posting entire articles is a violation of the forum rules and of the publication's copyrights (in this case the Houston Chronicle.)

Why are you so anti Slik Vik?

Or are you just anti rail?

Both?

[ig2ba]

Why are you so anti Slik Vik?

Or are you just anti rail?

Both?

 

Seriously?

[IronTiger]

One of Obama's pals is saying we're doing it wrong.

How is this news?

[Slick Vik]

One of Obama's pals is saying we're doing it wrong.

How is this news?

 

Edit

[arche_757]

^I'm not an Aggie, but that post isn't appropriate.  Slick, I would urge you to use caution when posting about anything where loss of life occurred.

 

How about we get back to the subject that, while not "new" news, is still very true and very relevant to all of us.

[august948]

Why are you so anti Slik Vik?

Or are you just anti rail?

Both?

 

It's been pointed out to Slick in the past that posting whole articles (and sometimes not citing the source for the quote) is inappropriate so there's no excuse for it now.

 

[august948]

Agreed and it's still relevant. However the suburbs shot themselves in the foot with last years referendum.

 

Or maybe the suburbs saw clearly that having the extra money for road projects where things are growing is more important?

 

[arche_757]

^Yet the inner loop is growing as well.

 

My dream scenario for 2030/35 is this:  Effective and rather extensive Lightrail system covering most of the large hub center inside the 610 Loop with heavy rail running from Galveston to Conroe, IAH to Sugarland/Roseburg, Katy to Baytown, Cypress to La Porte, Pearland to Tomball and perhaps a Loop system within that system(?).

Now, that's very much an unlikely happening in the next 16 years, but it is my hope.  We do need every form of transportation possible to compensate for the growth, and traffic to come.

[Slick Vik]

Or maybe the suburbs saw clearly that having the extra money for road projects where things are growing is more important?

 

 

Short sighted decision.

^Yet the inner loop is growing as well.

 

My dream scenario for 2030/35 is this:  Effective and rather extensive Lightrail system covering most of the large hub center inside the 610 Loop with heavy rail running from Galveston to Conroe, IAH to Sugarland/Roseburg, Katy to Baytown, Cypress to La Porte, Pearland to Tomball and perhaps a Loop system within that system(?).

Now, that's very much an unlikely happening in the next 16 years, but it is my hope.  We do need every form of transportation possible to compensate for the growth, and traffic to come.

 

That sounds like a great plan.

[august948]

^Yet the inner loop is growing as well.

 

 

It is, but the infrastructure inside the loop is more mature and not as likely to be expanded.  The suburbs are growing faster and the need for expansion of roadways is greater there.

 

Since most voters live outside the loop, it's not hard to understand that they care less for improving the infrastructure (i.e. expanding the light rail system) inside the loop and care more for expanding the roads nearer to them.

 

[arche_757]

^I live in the suburbs.  The roads around are poorly planned and executed.  Not so much because they are too small and can't carry enough traffic, but because the unincorporated (and in some cases incorporated cities/towns) have not spent the money planning for the future of these roads.  Empty fields quickly became new neighborhoods with hundreds of people living in them.

 

We do need to get our act together though in regards to transit.  There are many options that should assuage the less civic minded folks in suburban tracts and the unincorprated areas so abundant around Houston.  Imagine if Fort Bend County adopts its own effective bus system (not sure they may have one)... add that onto the greater METRO system and you'll start to see some solutions.  The average Houstonian isn't going to forgo the car just yet, but they will perhaps ride a bus to work or school if they can provided the system is quick, safe and clean.  METRO will need to work with different counties to build effective HR at some point.  We're far too big to rely on non-mass transit options on the roughly 92% basis that we do currently for much longer without seeing considerable gridlock.  That will result in people leaving these further afield suburban areas in the future for places closer to work.

[IronTiger]

^I live in the suburbs. The roads around are poorly planned and executed. Not so much because they are too small and can't carry enough traffic, but because the unincorporated (and in some cases incorporated cities/towns) have not spent the money planning for the future of these roads. Empty fields quickly became new neighborhoods with hundreds of people living in them.

We do need to get our act together though in regards to transit. There are many options that should assuage the less civic minded folks in suburban tracts and the unincorprated areas so abundant around Houston. Imagine if Fort Bend County adopts its own effective bus system (not sure they may have one)... add that onto the greater METRO system and you'll start to see some solutions. The average Houstonian isn't going to forgo the car just yet, but they will perhaps ride a bus to work or school if they can provided the system is quick, safe and clean. METRO will need to work with different counties to build effective HR at some point. We're far too big to rely on non-mass transit options on the roughly 92% basis that we do currently for much longer without seeing considerable gridlock. That will result in people leaving these further afield suburban areas in the future for places closer to work.

The roads aren't planned because the areas grow at an alarming rate, though it doesn't necessarily preclude mass transit later on. The biggest problem I can see with your proposal is that you're assuming that METRO is far more competent than it actually is.

[august948]

^I live in the suburbs.  The roads around are poorly planned and executed.  Not so much because they are too small and can't carry enough traffic, but because the unincorporated (and in some cases incorporated cities/towns) have not spent the money planning for the future of these roads.  Empty fields quickly became new neighborhoods with hundreds of people living in them.

 

We do need to get our act together though in regards to transit.  There are many options that should assuage the less civic minded folks in suburban tracts and the unincorprated areas so abundant around Houston.  Imagine if Fort Bend County adopts its own effective bus system (not sure they may have one)... add that onto the greater METRO system and you'll start to see some solutions.  The average Houstonian isn't going to forgo the car just yet, but they will perhaps ride a bus to work or school if they can provided the system is quick, safe and clean.  METRO will need to work with different counties to build effective HR at some point.  We're far too big to rely on non-mass transit options on the roughly 92% basis that we do currently for much longer without seeing considerable gridlock.  That will result in people leaving these further afield suburban areas in the future for places closer to work.

 

No doubt about the poorly planned roads on the edges.  They were originally laid out when the areas were rural and frequently run around the edges of the farms and ranches that existed at those times (thus the meandering routes country roads frequently take).  Most likely the same thing happened in places now closer in (like uptown) long ago when they were first developed.  Population expansion almost always happens first and the infrastructure lags.

 

There's another thread on transit for Pearland that illustrates what might happen.  Not all suburban residents need to commute into the center of the city, but those who do will ask for alternatives.  That can be seen via the park and ride service metro currently operates.  In the case of Pearland, and likely other outlying municipalities, they are already charging sales tax up to the limit allowed by law to support city services.  That means that Pearland and other cities might not be able to join the metro service area, but will still be left with demand for mass transit into the center of the city.  If the roads aren't improved and other commuting options aren't available one of two things might happen.  Either people will get tired of the long commute and move closer to their jobs (i.e. closer to the center of Houston, or businesses will move out to where the workers are.  I think you can see both trends happening right now, but the momemtum is still for the suburbs to grow vs the inner loop so what we're likely to see is a more distributed city (as in employment centers) rather than a radicaly more dense city.  It's going to be hard to efficiently serve a distributed city with rail so roads are going to continue to be the dominent transport infrastructure.  That being the case, bus service is the way to go in the future.  What I envision is a greatly expanded park and ride service, maybe with partnerships between metro and various outlying cities and with service non only to and from the loop (as it is now) but from suburb to suburb (i.e. maybe the woodlands to the energy corridor).

 

[arche_757]

^Automobiles will always define our country.

 

I guess what I meant wasn't that earlier FM roads were bad, or undersized to serve the populations that grew up nearby.  Rather, what I meant was that the replacement roads for those roads were poorly planned.  Take for example FM 646 in League City/Dickinson.  TXDot recently rebuilt it on the east side of I-45.  Now, the whole road on the west side all the way to FM 517 is new.  The eastern leg of 646 is not.  It was ALREADY rebuilt when the new portion of 646 was added thus extending the road south to 517 (and framing what will be the eventual start of the Grand Parkway off of the Gulf Freeway).  Planners/count folks did a really bad job with that road.  It isn't like the growth was just overnight in that area.  LC was already growing rapidly and for TxDot and Galveston County people to screw up the construction/need for re-construction (we're talking a time frame of just a few years) is p*ss poor in my opinion (please excuse my language).  It is instances like that I am writing about.  I'm sure this is not some random occurance, but rather a much more frequent event all over the metropolitan area.

 

And regarding towns like League City, Pearland, The Woodlands etc. they will be soon large enough to warrent their own transit agency.  And not just a hokey couple of buses but something with multiple lines and services.  Galveston's Island Transit comes to mind - in regards to offering transit options including commuter busing (which is new, but still quite popular from what I can see based on the ridership).  Sugar Land, Pearland The Woodlands/Conroe or counties can work to build smaller transit agencies that will address their citizens needs and do so helping to augment the METRO system in Houston.  These would be great things.  METRO can eventually extend commuter service to transit hubs in the aforementiond cities and help to further offer connections so people have an option other than their car if they need to.

[mfastx]

Kind of a strange article since light rail is not a solution region-wide anyway.  It's fantastic for shorter distances.. but if we are talking about region-wide, light rail would be awful.  Heavy rail would have much, much higher ridership.  Even further out, commuter rail would be the answer (not as much ridership but very cheap to operate).

[arche_757]

The roads aren't planned because the areas grow at an alarming rate, though it doesn't necessarily preclude mass transit later on. The biggest problem I can see with your proposal is that you're assuming that METRO is far more competent than it actually is.

 

I clarified my statement a bit... I'm talking about roads that are 10 years old or so (which in hindsight were not properly planned).

 

And yes, METRO is very much an incompetent organization.  Thankfully the lower people on the totem pole seem to have some sense - otherwise we wouldn't have buses or trains running at all!

[plumber2]

I know a little history about the Grand Parkway route through Galveston County. It had always been north of FM 517 and crossing I-45 at 646 and then continuing along FM 646 to terminate at S 146. Some group in Texas City encouraged the GP association to move the route south of FM 517 in the late 1990's crossing I-45 at FM 1764 and continuing on into Texas City. Once residents of west Galveston County found out about this, we officals in Santa Fe and Galveston County Judge Yarbrough invited the GP association to a town meeting. The meeting was rough, but the consensus was, that the GP association would move the route back north with a crossing of I-45 at FM 646 or even further north at S 96 (League City Parkway). Galveston County has always been for the completion of the the GP and even donated design funds to the GP association to encourage this southern section of being moved up in the planning stages.  

[arche_757]

^ Good to know.  I'm curious what was the snafu regarding FM 646's rebuild following years of construction when I-45 was being widened in the area?  It seems that perhaps something was missed last go around (which was just a few years ago).

[august948]

 

And regarding towns like League City, Pearland, The Woodlands etc. they will be soon large enough to warrent their own transit agency.  And not just a hokey couple of buses but something with multiple lines and services.  Galveston's Island Transit comes to mind - in regards to offering transit options including commuter busing (which is new, but still quite popular from what I can see based on the ridership).  Sugar Land, Pearland The Woodlands/Conroe or counties can work to build smaller transit agencies that will address their citizens needs and do so helping to augment the METRO system in Houston.  These would be great things.  METRO can eventually extend commuter service to transit hubs in the aforementiond cities and help to further offer connections so people have an option other than their car if they need to.

 

Therein lies the rub.  Metro was going to do just that in Pearland and then pulled out citing the fact that Pearland is outside the Metro (and thus taxing) service area.  Pearland can't join Metro even though the city was in favor of having the park and ride due to the cap on local sales tax (which Pearland already collects for itself).  Thus Pearland, and other similar cities are going to have to go their own way on transit.  That's going to lead to a fractured system.

 

[Slick Vik]

No doubt about the poorly planned roads on the edges.  They were originally laid out when the areas were rural and frequently run around the edges of the farms and ranches that existed at those times (thus the meandering routes country roads frequently take).  Most likely the same thing happened in places now closer in (like uptown) long ago when they were first developed.  Population expansion almost always happens first and the infrastructure lags.

 

There's another thread on transit for Pearland that illustrates what might happen.  Not all suburban residents need to commute into the center of the city, but those who do will ask for alternatives.  That can be seen via the park and ride service metro currently operates.  In the case of Pearland, and likely other outlying municipalities, they are already charging sales tax up to the limit allowed by law to support city services.  That means that Pearland and other cities might not be able to join the metro service area, but will still be left with demand for mass transit into the center of the city.  If the roads aren't improved and other commuting options aren't available one of two things might happen.  Either people will get tired of the long commute and move closer to their jobs (i.e. closer to the center of Houston, or businesses will move out to where the workers are.  I think you can see both trends happening right now, but the momemtum is still for the suburbs to grow vs the inner loop so what we're likely to see is a more distributed city (as in employment centers) rather than a radicaly more dense city.  It's going to be hard to efficiently serve a distributed city with rail so roads are going to continue to be the dominent transport infrastructure.  That being the case, bus service is the way to go in the future.  What I envision is a greatly expanded park and ride service, maybe with partnerships between metro and various outlying cities and with service non only to and from the loop (as it is now) but from suburb to suburb (i.e. maybe the woodlands to the energy corridor).

 

 

Or you could have something like BART which gives a fast way to go from suburb to city, or even suburb to suburb. Buses are not as fast, efficient, or comfortable as trains. Buses never have been and never will be the future. Maybe for last mile purposes or within certain small areas but the core of a system should be based on rail.

Therein lies the rub.  Metro was going to do just that in Pearland and then pulled out citing the fact that Pearland is outside the Metro (and thus taxing) service area.  Pearland can't join Metro even though the city was in favor of having the park and ride due to the cap on local sales tax (which Pearland already collects for itself).  Thus Pearland, and other similar cities are going to have to go their own way on transit.  That's going to lead to a fractured system.

 

 

Pearland could raise its tax to join.

Kind of a strange article since light rail is not a solution region-wide anyway.  It's fantastic for shorter distances.. but if we are talking about region-wide, light rail would be awful.  Heavy rail would have much, much higher ridership.  Even further out, commuter rail would be the answer (not as much ridership but very cheap to operate).

 

Grade separated light rail can go up to 65 mph.

[IronTiger]

Pearland could raise its tax to join.

Which brings us back to the fact that the suburbs don't want to waste their tax dollars on something they'll rarely, if ever, get a chance to use. That's assuming that METRO does even want to pay back Pearland with what they paid for, more than likely, they'll squander it in other parts.

 

Grade separated light rail can go up to 65 mph.

Where are you getting this from? Supposing that the same light rail lines that go up and down Main go down to Pearland (for whatever reason, just humor me here), can those cars even get up to 65 mph? Furthermore, wouldn't it make more sense if it was surface-level? With crossing grades separated, the trains would have to climb over every crossing, whereas if it were straight and level, they could go faster. Unless, of course, you're suggesting a full Washington DC-like system, but at that point, it's not light rail.

[arche_757]

Perhaps we should wish that Galveston, Brazoria and Fort Bend form their own transit organization?  You could call it "Coastal Connection" or some other name... and the focus could be on connecting the cities in those counties together and allowing diverse transit options within each community, and then also tie-into hubs that would connect to METRO and the City of Houston?  Worth a try?  And besides, it will take more than 1 single transit agency to keep 6+ million people moving.  Look at NYC, sure they have the transit authority, but there are certainly other organizations working within those areas as well.  I do see Montgomery County having to take a similar approach down the road.

[Slick Vik]

Which brings us back to the fact that the suburbs don't want to waste their tax dollars on something they'll rarely, if ever, get a chance to use. That's assuming that METRO does even want to pay back Pearland with what they paid for, more than likely, they'll squander it in other parts.

 

Where are you getting this from? Supposing that the same light rail lines that go up and down Main go down to Pearland (for whatever reason, just humor me here), can those cars even get up to 65 mph? Furthermore, wouldn't it make more sense if it was surface-level? With crossing grades separated, the trains would have to climb over every crossing, whereas if it were straight and level, they could go faster. Unless, of course, you're suggesting a full Washington DC-like system, but at that point, it's not light rail.

 

1. Rarely, if ever use? If there was a way for Pearland people to go to medical center and downtown on a grade separated train, you're telling me it would rarely be used?

 

2. Dallas DART light rails trains go up to 65 mph once it leaves downtown. To answer your question, yes these trains can go up to 65 mph. Elevated would probably be best, as you say going up bridges would add time, a flat train would be better whether surface level or elevated, but not sure they could do all those crossings.