It’d Be Tough, But Houston Could Get Down With Freeways

[Ross]

And the study written by two professors and a research fellow that analyzed SEVENTY cases of reduced road capacity, which states "traffic problems are usually far less serious that predicted,” and “widespread, long-term disruption is hardly ever reported.”

 

 

But how many freeway removals involved roads that feed hundreds of thousands of commuters into a central business district and serve as major cross country routes? Do we want Houston to be the outlier that has traffic problems far more serious than predicted?

[musicman]

Tell me how it would be more difficult to get in and out of downtown. From 45 north and south, 59 north and south, 10 east and west, there already are ramps to get in and out of downtown. The only difference this would make would be for people who are cutting through downtown.

so you're proposing to put all these additional people on downtown streets and that doesn't make it more difficult to get in and out of downtown?

[musicman]

Midtown IS lively. Probably the most lively neighborhood in houston. But I agree probably not the best place to raise a child.

trying going down san jac on sunday.....you'll get a nice "show"

[IronTiger]

Right. The guys who were quoted in the articles are nobodies.

Tom Radulovich, president of board of directors of BART

Don Bergstrom, Portland traffic engineer

California department of transportation

San Francisco municipal transportation agency

Sam Schwartz, chief engineer NYCDOT

 

 

OK, find me where any of them were in favor of downtown highway removal, not specific cases. No? I thought so.

 

And the study written by two professors and a research fellow that analyzed SEVENTY cases of reduced road capacity, which states "traffic problems are usually far less serious that predicted,” and “widespread, long-term disruption is hardly ever reported.”

 

Those aren't freeway removal projects, though. It's often a case of taking a narrow city street, four lanes in each direction, no turn lane, and turning it into two lanes, bike lanes, and a left hand turn lane. Do you have a link to the abstract? Were they in cities with shrinking or growing population? Was there a recent alternative built to render the old road obsolete? 

 

I'm not asking you to find were they advocated removing freeways in cities, because they probably didn't. Wouldn't want to burden you. 

 

Oh, and here's one more thing.

 

This is Interstate 78 in New Jersey heading into Holland Tunnel to exit at New York City. It's one of the few places where there is a gap in the Interstate Highway System. (picture from Wikipedia)

 

And that's just a stub heading into New York, not cross traffic. All that car exhaust, all that noise, and probably a total pain just to cross a street...yessir, that's going to make our neighborhoods great and walkable.

[Slick Vik]

But how many freeway removals involved roads that feed hundreds of thousands of commuters into a central business district and serve as major cross country routes? Do we want Houston to be the outlier that has traffic problems far more serious than predicted?

 

Fear mongering, great tactic.

[livincinco]

Fear mongering, great tactic.

 

So basically advocating that removing freeways in any situation results in negligible differences in traffic.  Can I assume that you then further believe that removing all freeways would result in no incremental traffic gain and if not, please explain your rationale for determing where the tipping point occurs?

[Slick Vik]

But how many freeway removals involved roads that feed hundreds of thousands of commuters into a central business district and serve as major cross country routes? Do we want Houston to be the outlier that has traffic problems far more serious than predicted?

 

http://contextsensitivesolutions.org/content/reading/disappearing-traffic/resources/disappearing-traffic/?

 

http://www.cnu.org/sites/www.cnu.org/files/SmartMobilityReport.pdf

[IronTiger]

http://contextsensitivesolutions.org/content/reading/disappearing-traffic/resources/disappearing-traffic/?

 

http://www.cnu.org/sites/www.cnu.org/files/SmartMobilityReport.pdf

 

The first link was about bridge closures--many of them temporary. If you close a few lanes of a simple bridge, people will find alternative routes. A total and permanent closure of a major freeway that carries not only local but cross country traffic is not going to be anywhere close.

 

For the last four pages, you've pointed at Milwaukee, San Francisco, and Portland (not to forget Seoul, too) and blubbered about how they're no different than highways that go through downtown Houston, which is completely false.

 

And unsurprisingly, you ignored my last post because you couldn't come up with a way to retort it with links that you pulled from Google.

[Slick Vik]

The first link was about bridge closures--many of them temporary. If you close a few lanes of a simple bridge, people will find alternative routes. A total and permanent closure of a major freeway that carries not only local but cross country traffic is not going to be anywhere close.

 

For the last four pages, you've pointed at Milwaukee, San Francisco, and Portland (not to forget Seoul, too) and blubbered about how they're no different than highways that go through downtown Houston, which is completely false.

 

And unsurprisingly, you ignored my last post because you couldn't come up with a way to retort it with links that you pulled from Google.

 

Would you rather that freeways barge through manhattan?

[Hugh Stone]

[livincinco]

I noticed that you ignored my question as well.  If removing any freeway is good, aren't you stating then that removing all freeways would have the same effect of not increasing traffic?

[RedScare]

Would you rather that freeways barge through manhattan?

 

Personally, I could not care less what they do to Manhattan. I do not live there, so I would expect the city and residents to do what works best for them...just like we shall do here.

[Slick Vik]

I noticed that you ignored my question as well.  If removing any freeway is good, aren't you stating then that removing all freeways would have the same effect of not increasing traffic?

 

I've already stated I've agreed with removing all freeways in the downtown area.

[IronTiger]

Why are the downtown areas different? Wouldn't you rather have Katy Freeway replaced with an eight lane boulevard with a light rail running up and down? Sure sounds like it...

[livincinco]

I've already stated I've agreed with removing all freeways in the downtown area.

 

So based on your stated logic, I would expect that the loop could be removed as well with no impact.  Do you agree and if not, why?

[Slick Vik]

Why are the downtown areas different? Wouldn't you rather have Katy Freeway replaced with an eight lane boulevard with a light rail running up and down? Sure sounds like it...

 

I would prefer that, but I am willing to compromise.

[Slick Vik]

So based on your stated logic, I would expect that the loop could be removed as well with no impact.  Do you agree and if not, why?

 

I've only commented on freeway removals that have taken place in city centers.

 

Also, I don't know if you lived here during the time the pierce elevated reconstruction, but I was. Houston survived, traffic diverted, and it wasn't the end of the world as we knew it. In fact, it really wasn't all that bad. So there is evidence that without a pierce elevated downtown and its associated traffic would be just fine.

[Nate99]

Going from the north side of Vancouver to the airport in a car or bus sucks in about every way I can describe.

 

That's all I have to offer.

[livincinco]

've only commented on freeway removals that have taken place in city centers.

 

Also, I don't know if you lived here during the time the pierce elevated reconstruction, but I was. Houston survived, traffic diverted, and it wasn't the end of the world as we knew it. In fact, it really wasn't all that bad. So there is evidence that without a pierce elevated downtown and its associated traffic would be just fine.

 

So basically you're avoiding the question.  You are asserting that eliminating any freeway does not increase congestion.  You are then ridiculing us when we suggest that there are situations that may not apply.  Yet now, you seem to be hesitating.  If you feel so strongly that eliminating freeways doesn't increase congestion in any scenario, then you should believe in removing the loop as well.  

[JJxvi]

I think its obvious that eliminating the through, elevated portions on the boundaries of downtown would decrease congestion and improve traffic for those who commute to and from and around the CBD.  Whether or not it would cause problem for point to point commuters and through traffic  would then depend on the carrying capacity of the new through traffic networks, primarily loop 610, which has its own dubious capacity in certain areas,

 

Ideally the major freeways in Houston I think would not be so close to the CBD, have 3 major interstate corridors all intersect within 1 mile of each other seems a bit excessive, but that's how its happened.

[Slick Vik]

So basically you're avoiding the question.  You are asserting that eliminating any freeway does not increase congestion.  You are then ridiculing us when we suggest that there are situations that may not apply.  Yet now, you seem to be hesitating.  If you feel so strongly that eliminating freeways doesn't increase congestion in any scenario, then you should believe in removing the loop as well.  

 

I'm not hesitating. I personally would wish all freeways were removed. But unlike you I am not rigid, I am willing to compromise a little. You however want wider freeways all around, in and out, and even through the center of our city. I care about the city, its image, and quality of life for its residents, which by the way is decreasing. You care about 18 wheelers.

[Ross]

 I care about the city, its image, and quality of life for its residents, which by the way is decreasing.

 

The quality of life here is better than ever, or at least better than ever since I moved here in 1976. The air is cleaner, the roads are better, the traffic is better, and the economy is better.

[Slick Vik]

Going from the north side of Vancouver to the airport in a car or bus sucks in about every way I can describe.

 

That's all I have to offer.

 

Bus to seabus to skytrain. Once you get on the skytrain it's about 20 minutes.

[Nate99]

Bus to seabus to skytrain. Once you get on the skytrain it's about 20 minutes.

 

Yup.

 

The last bit by train took about 1/3 of the time the same bit did by car.

[Slick Vik]

Yup.

The last bit by train took about 1/3 of the time the same bit did by car.

Even the Seabus is ok. But the bus to the Seabus can take a while, and sometimes those buses don't run very often.

[Slick Vik]

The quality of life here is better than ever, or at least better than ever since I moved here in 1976. The air is cleaner, the roads are better, the traffic is better, and the economy is better.

You think the air is cleaner now than in 1976?

[RedScare]

You think the air is cleaner now than in 1976?

 

Do you think it is not?

[livincinco]

I'm not hesitating. I personally would wish all freeways were removed. But unlike you I am not rigid, I am willing to compromise a little. You however want wider freeways all around, in and out, and even through the center of our city. I care about the city, its image, and quality of life for its residents, which by the way is decreasing. You care about 18 wheelers.

I care about the reality of jobs and providing a standard of living for the 6 million residents of the city. You care about walkabiilty in your neighborhood. The fact that you are so quick to completely dismiss the importance of the Port of Houston to the city is really quite laughable.

I agree that the freeways are closer to downtown than would be optimal. An alternative solution would be nice, but suggesting that interrupting three major highways and diverting them to surface streets is not realistic. When I pointed out the potential impact on the regions economy, you reverted to name calling, as per the norm.

I now expect a number of semi-related blog posts that you will claim make your point undeniable.

[Slick Vik]

I care about the reality of jobs and providing a standard of living for the 6 million residents of the city. You care about walkabiilty in your neighborhood. The fact that you are so quick to completely dismiss the importance of the Port of Houston to the city is really quite laughable.

I agree that the freeways are closer to downtown than would be optimal. An alternative solution would be nice, but suggesting that interrupting three major highways and diverting them to surface streets is not realistic. When I pointed out the potential impact on the regions economy, you reverted to name calling, as per the norm.

I now expect a number of semi-related blog posts that you will claim make your point undeniable.

I'm sure you would've said the same thing if you lived in Seoul, San Francisco, Paris, Madrid, and New York.

How are you so sure it's unrealistic? What's your basis? I take surface streets in downtown every day. It's not that bad. Not only that but the pierce elevated was shut down for a period, and it wasn't that bad either. I'm at least willing to budge and say ok trench 59. But you want to not even give an inch. The status quo is just fine. In fact widen freeways. Guess what some people have an imagination for the city, not just a sprawling metropolis of cookie cutter suburbs and strip malls which you get to on ten lane highways.

[IronTiger]

I'm sure you would've said the same thing if you lived in Seoul, San Francisco, Paris, Madrid, and New York.

Wow, you're back to the same topics again, even though we've talked about how those specific instances were nothing like Houston.

 

 

How are you so sure it's unrealistic? What's your basis?

 

And you're being realistic?

 

 

I'm at least willing to budge and say ok trench 59. But you want to not even give an inch.

Burying a highway is not a "compromise".

 

 

 

Guess what some people have an imagination for the city

Well, you do have an imagination. No questioning that.

 

 

not just a sprawling metropolis of cookie cutter suburbs and strip malls which you get to on ten lane highways.

Slick. I don't even live in Houston (I'm starting to wonder if you don't, either--it's okay, you can admit you live in the suburbs, I won't laugh), and it is a diverse, interesting city with wildly different neighborhoods. Pick any major Houston road that runs east/west or north/south. Drive on it starting from the terminus. You will be amazed at what you'll find.