METRO Meeting June 18 Regarding Halting Of Transit Expansion

[infinite_jim]

http://www.chron.com...nds-3760586.php

After months of discussion of various compromise proposals, the board settled on what, essentially, is a straight-up-or-down vote on the so-called general mobility program. The only change is that if voters opt to continue the payments, they will be apportioned differently among the county, Houston and 14 small cities within the Metropolitan Transit Authority's service area. The revised formula would bring far more money to Houston and less to Harris County and 11 of the small cities. Disproportionately larger shares would continue to go to Humble, Katy and Missouri City.

A no vote on the proposal, Garcia said, would mean that the program would end and all sales tax revenues would stay with Metro for transit. If that were to happen, Garcia said he would work with the agency's partners to continue mobility payments in some form.

[Slick Vik]

http://www.chron.com...nds-3760586.php

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[IHB2]

so is this proposal by board member D Jefferson the language METRO adopted (it's not Spieler's proposal)?

4. D. Jefferson

VOTERS CHOOSE A OR B

A. Should METRO continue the General Mobility program, setting aside 25% of its one-cent sales tax for road projects in the City of Houston, Harris County and the Multi-Cities.

B. Should METRO discontinue the General Mobility program, retaining full use of the one-cent sales tax for transit purposes.

[kdog08]

Actually, no I can't. I have to open up a separate browser tab and bounce back and forth, delineating each of his responses from the next, figuring out what I had said that he was responding to, and then figure out what I was responding to in the first place (in a third browser tab). Just going through the first part of his responses, I know that they're a bit off from what was intended. So that pissed me off.

The conversation went too fast for him to completely keep up. It's probably not his fault. I've been out sick and you're just some kind of zombie machine of transit apologism or something, so there's been an unusual quantity of back-and-forth content generated. He fell behind and I haven't got the patience to go back for him. If my impatience (also signaled by bolded replies to over-parsed posts) is a character flaw, so be it. At least I'm honest about it, right?

Oh so it's me not being able to keep up, yet by your own admission you have a backwards way of responding by opening up multiple browsers...

Perhaps it's your user error? Because other people seem to be posting and keeping up....

[TheNiche]

Oh so it's me not being able to keep up, yet by your own admission you have a backwards way of responding by opening up multiple browsers...

Perhaps it's your user error? Because other people seem to be posting and keeping up....

If being meticulously on-point in my responses is backwards, then call me backwards. Ho hum. Try not to take personal offense that I won't spend two hours crafting a proper response to every one of your dozens of points.

[kdog08]

If being meticulously on-point in my responses is backwards, then call me backwards. Ho hum.

Meticulously on-point? Delusions of grandeur?

Try not to take personal offense that I won't spend two hours crafting a proper response to every one of your dozens of points.

I take offense when someone implies that I'm slow. Just because I have a different background than you doesn't automatically make you any more right. As to my responses, you are more than welcome to condense them as I've done to yours.

[TheNiche]

I take offense when someone implies that I'm slow. Just because I have a different background than you doesn't automatically make you any more right. As to my responses, you are more than welcome to condense them as I've done to yours.

If you would bother to read and think about what I had typed, you'd see that I have already excused you from being (relatively) slow to respond on account of that I was cranking out a huge amount of content at a bizarre pace. Up to this point, I haven't implied anything other than that you're perfectly normal. If anything, I've been self-deprecating.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like to scream and yell at me. Or reiterate what you were trying to say with greater precision and brevity. Take your pick. Or ignore me, I don't care.

[mfastx]

So whatever happened to that DOT bill with the Culberson language? Is that a done deal? I tried googling but info on the budget is surprisingly hard to find.

[Slick Vik]

So whatever happened to that DOT bill with the Culberson language? Is that a done deal? I tried googling but info on the budget is surprisingly hard to find.

It won't pass the senate. Culbertson is a piece of garbage

[IHB2]

It won't pass the senate. Culbertson is a piece of garbage

don't be so harsh. if you spend any time talking with the man you discover he's just not very smart. since DeLay got his ass handed to him his disciple Culberson has attempted to carry forward DeLay's thuggish legacy. but DeLay was effective b/c he was not stupid...

[infinite_jim]

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Houston-Harris-County-strike-deal-on-Metro-road-3785419.php

The county and cities' current mobility contracts expire in 2014. Under the new proposal, any increases in sales tax revenues above 2014 levels would be split half-and-half between Metro and its member governments, sources said.

That formula would continue until Metro had collected about $400 million under the arrangement, County Judge Ed Emmett said. Sources differed on whether that was projected to occur in 2024 or 2026.

[mfastx]

Sigh, after reading this agreement, our political system here is so. What can you say.

Do any other cities have the equivalent of GM payments? What other major city somooow manages to transfer a quarter of public transit funds to roads?

I do like that there will be more money going to improving the bus system under this new plan. But I disagree with not funding future rail expansion at all. If future rail lines are not funded, then our public transit system here in Houston will not improve meaningfully. Both bus and rail (specifically the University/Uptown lines) desperately need funding. And what is this "back to basics" nonsense? Do they mean "back to the 1980s?" Because funding going exclusively to buses is what we were doing in the 1980s. Why set back public transit in Houston 30 years? Let's step into the 21st century folks. Let's fund a multi-modal transit system that utilizes both bus and rail.

And I laughed when I read that a "no" vote will cause a lawsuit.. LOL, a lawsuit against who? The voters? GM payments are a complete joke which represents how backwards this city's political leaders are in regards to public transit.

It is completely unfair to taxpayers that they are working out these "agreements" without any public input. The mindset that some of these leaders have is disgusting. They need to remember that the city of Houston is the *only* reason that people are living in their member cities. A good inner city core means a good suburban environment. If you fund public transit, everyone wins.

EDIT: and why does this thing keep correcting my "s.o.m.e.h.o.w" to "somooow?!" What is that??

[LTAWACS]

Culbertson is a piece of garbage

Truer words have never been spoken.

[TheNiche]

Sigh, after reading this agreement, our political system here is so. What can you say.

Do any other cities have the equivalent of GM payments? What other major city somooow manages to transfer a quarter of public transit funds to roads?

I do like that there will be more money going to improving the bus system under this new plan. But I disagree with not funding future rail expansion at all. If future rail lines are not funded, then our public transit system here in Houston will not improve meaningfully. Both bus and rail (specifically the University/Uptown lines) desperately need funding. And what is this "back to basics" nonsense? Do they mean "back to the 1980s?" Because funding going exclusively to buses is what we were doing in the 1980s. Why set back public transit in Houston 30 years? Let's step into the 21st century folks. Let's fund a multi-modal transit system that utilizes both bus and rail.

And I laughed when I read that a "no" vote will cause a lawsuit.. LOL, a lawsuit against who? The voters? GM payments are a complete joke which represents how backwards this city's political leaders are in regards to public transit.

It is completely unfair to taxpayers that they are working out these "agreements" without any public input. The mindset that some of these leaders have is disgusting. They need to remember that the city of Houston is the *only* reason that people are living in their member cities. A good inner city core means a good suburban environment. If you fund public transit, everyone wins.

EDIT: and why does this thing keep correcting my "s.o.m.e.h.o.w" to "somooow?!" What is that??

The pass-through of government funds between entities so as to obfuscate the purpose or uses of taxation is a hallmark of democracy (and the mob), as is the reverse-earmarking of new funds without uses of the pre-existing funds becoming hindered. Ha! You're so gullible, I'll bet you even thought that the Drainage Fee revenues (approved by voters in a referendum that was written to exclude the many promises of politicians that were also elected by the voters) would be used for infrastructure projects over and above the baseline plans.

Also, an unsatisfactory outcome would probably prompt a lawsuit, but those have a knack of getting thrown out. Its commonplace. More likely though, would be a legislative adventure, a meandering romp through a hog farm with completely unpredictable outcomes engineered for Houston with the "assistance" of the elected pansy-ass from San Angelo or Pharr. Have you ever heard of Pharr? Do you think that they care what happens to Houston, so long as they get their piece?

It is completely unfair to taxpayers that they are working out these "agreements" without any public input. The mindset that some of these leaders have is disgusting. They need to remember that the city of Houston is the *only* reason that people are living in their member cities. A good inner city core means a good suburban environment. If you fund public transit, everyone wins.

Dude, even the leaders of the City of Houston support GM payments. This isn't a suburbia versus the central city issue. The issue is that nobody wants to raise the tax rate because more transit isn't worth the expenditure of political capital. If you find it disgusting, then look in the big societal mirror. The City is us.

I for one do not find it to be disgusting, however. It's an obvious political calculation, based in the real difference between what people pretend to want in front of other people and what they actually vote for behind closed-curtains.

[mfastx]

The pass-through of government funds between entities so as to obfuscate the purpose or uses of taxation is a hallmark of democracy (and the mob), as is the reverse-earmarking of new funds without uses of the pre-existing funds becoming hindered. Ha! You're so gullible, I'll bet you even thought that the Drainage Fee revenues (approved by voters in a referendum that was written to exclude the many promises of politicians that were also elected by the voters) would be used for infrastructure projects over and above the baseline plans.

I get what you are saying and I completely understand the that it happens. It's just frustrating to me that it does happen. The drainage fee is a whole different thing, no one knows where that money is going. I know this type of stuff happens, I was just venting a bit. I feel that our society would be better if all of this political bull didn't happen.

Also, an unsatisfactory outcome would probably prompt a lawsuit, but those have a knack of getting thrown out. Its commonplace. More likely though, would be a legislative adventure, a meandering romp through a hog farm with completely unpredictable outcomes engineered for Houston with the "assistance" of the elected pansy-ass from San Angelo or Pharr. Have you ever heard of Pharr? Do you think that they care what happens to Houston, so long as they get their piece?

Of course they don't. All I can say that the situation for good public transit looks bleak in Houston, for the short term at least.

Dude, even the leaders of the City of Houston support GM payments. This isn't a suburbia versus the central city issue. The issue is that nobody wants to raise the tax rate because more transit isn't worth the expenditure of political capital. If you find it disgusting, then look in the big societal mirror. The City is us.

They mayor supports less GM payments and more funding for transit. While most leaders support GM payments in some form, most City of Houston leaders favor less GM payments and more funding for transit. You are right, no leader is going to come out and oppose GM payments outright. That would be too politically risky.

The only reason GM payments were approved by voters was because they were bundled with rail. GM payments are nothing more than a way for suburbs to take money from METRO and use it on roads. Just so they don't have to raise taxes. They are effectively cheating the system. They want good roads, but don't want to pay for them themselves. It's purely political. All of this is evidenced by the fact that the member cities want to continue to get more than their fare share (!) of GM payments. It is clear what their motivation is.

All while Houston taxpayers are subsidizing their P&R lines and HOV lanes out to suburbia. Not to mention their road construction.

I still have yet to find any other large city that siphons off transit taxes and uses them for roads.

Niche - do you support GM payments? If yes, why?

[Ross]

What's lost in this is that much of the sales tax collected in "Houston" is actually paid by residents of the County and other municipal entities. Nearly all of the retail of any size in the county has been annexed by the City of Houston. So, all those County residents in Spring who shop along FM1960 are paying Houston sales tax while living 20 miles from town. Those folks deserve some consideration. I would love to see data on sales tax collections by zip or census tract.

[Slick Vik]

What's lost in this is that much of the sales tax collected in "Houston" is actually paid by residents of the County and other municipal entities. Nearly all of the retail of any size in the county has been annexed by the City of Houston. So, all those County residents in Spring who shop along FM1960 are paying Houston sales tax while living 20 miles from town. Those folks deserve some consideration. I would love to see data on sales tax collections by zip or census tract.

They get consideration from TXDOT and Harris County and other counties.

[TheNiche]

I feel that our society would be better if all of this political bull didn't happen.

Sure, like in Africa. There is never any political bullshit in a state of effective anarchies punctuated by dictatorships. Not ever. And it works for them soooooooo well. I envy them and hope to become infected with AIDS and ride a minibus very soon.

Niche - do you support GM payments? If yes, why?

I'm sort of hoping that this proposition is voted down so that GM payments stop and the issue of reforming METRO, its membership, and its sources of revenue might be brought to a head in the legislature.

[mfastx]

Sure, like in Africa. There is never any political bullshit in a state of effective anarchies punctuated by dictatorships. Not ever. And it works for them soooooooo well. I envy them and hope to become infected with AIDS and ride a minibus very soon.

LOL, I was thinking along the lines of most European countries, or Japan. While there is certainly political bs to some degree in other developed countries, it is not at the same level as it is here.

[Slick Vik]

LOL, I was thinking along the lines of most European countries, or Japan. While there is certainly political bs to some degree in other developed countries, it is not at the same level as it is here.

Italy and India are bad

[TheNiche]

LOL, I was thinking along the lines of most European countries, or Japan. While there is certainly political bs to some degree in other developed countries, it is not at the same level as it is here.

Japan. Yeah, the narrow and linear rail-friendly archipelago with the knack for becoming contaminated with radioactive waste as the unintended consequence of various series of increasingly poor judgments compounding upon themselves. Japan only seems to have it together because that's the image that they intend to communicate, pretty much above all else. And the image is more important than a horrific reality; just research the endemic culture of corruption within sumo wrestling...one of their sacred traditions.

Europe? Un-linked fiscal and monetary policy. Currency devaluation. Austerity. Stagnation. Stagnation. Stagnation. They're effectively paying for a third of my upcoming vacation by having overspent on very nearly everything, wastefully. Also a bad example.

Advocate for the United States being more like China. I'll probably forget to point out that you were so ridiculously, ludicrously, insanely wrong about it nine months from now.

[mfastx]

Japan. Yeah, the narrow and linear rail-friendly archipelago with the knack for becoming contaminated with radioactive waste as the unintended consequence of various series of increasingly poor judgments compounding upon themselves. Japan only seems to have it together because that's the image that they intend to communicate, pretty much above all else. And the image is more important than a horrific reality; just research the endemic culture of corruption within sumo wrestling...one of their sacred traditions.

Europe? Un-linked fiscal and monetary policy. Currency devaluation. Austerity. Stagnation. Stagnation. Stagnation. They're effectively paying for a third of my upcoming vacation by having overspent on very nearly everything, wastefully. Also a bad example.

Advocate for the United States being more like China. I'll probably forget to point out that you were so ridiculously, ludicrously, insanely wrong about it nine months from now.

Well, I wasn't really saying that I wish we were like those countries from a general point of view. I was strictly talking about politics related to infrastructure, which I probably should have clarified. I wish that we could put together respectable infrastructure like those countries.

Hell, I even wish Houston's leaders could be more like... LA for example. They seem to be competent enough to put together some respectable infrastructure, not only for the private automobile, but they are vastly improving their public transportation infrastructure.

I just got back from Europe and the infrastructure there is miles better than anywhere in the states (perhaps outside of select cities, Boston comes to mind).

Anyway, this is way off topic, but we have our own problems here in the US. I'll leave it at that.

[samagon]

LOL, I was thinking along the lines of most European countries, or Japan. While there is certainly political bs to some degree in other developed countries, it is not at the same level as it is here.

I think it is, we just look at the final product and see roses and blue skies. If you follow the process it's just as messy as ours, and in some cases even more messy.

As an example (just of infrastructure, not specific to transportation). Germany, on the heels of the nuclear disaster in Japan decided to shut down all their nuclear facilities and replace with renewable (wind and solar), their goal is to have 40% of their energy come from renewable in a very short time frame, and by 2050 to be 80% renewable.

Currently, they're building windmills all over the place, but they have a problem getting the energy from those windmills to homes, so they need to build some transmission lines from where there's wind, to where there's dense population, well, I'll let you read for yourself...

http://www.npr.org/2...ear-free-future

all in all, it looks like theirs nimbys in Germany and they're fighting just as hard as they do here.

Granted, that's power generation infrastructure, not transportation infrastructure, but the reality is, their transportation infrastructure is just as political.

Regarding Houston's leaders being more like LA, that's the last thing we need. As mentioned above, I think you're looking at the finished product and assuming that the journey to that product was a straight line, unlike ours. You don't see their dirty laundry cause it's not easily accessible, unlike our dirty laundry, which is right there.

[mfastx]

Regarding Houston's leaders being more like LA, that's the last thing we need. As mentioned above, I think you're looking at the finished product and assuming that the journey to that product was a straight line, unlike ours. You don't see their dirty laundry cause it's not easily accessible, unlike our dirty laundry, which is right there.

Points taken and I understand. However the fact is that the cities/countries I mentioned have far better infrastructure than Houston. The point is not that their political process is a "straight line" or anything like that. Every country has it's problems. The point is that somooow, someway, they have been able to build much better infrastructure than we have. I was not clear in my first post and I should have been.

Why is it the last thing we need? Again, I am talking strictly from a transportation perspective. NIMBYism is bad in LA too, and they are still getting things done. Hell, it was so bad that there was a law prohibiting construction of subways (sound familiar? *coughCulbersoncough*). However, that law was overturned and things turned around.

On the other hand, Houston will be stuck with an incomplete (and because of this, probably ineffective) light rail system, money for transit being used for roads, and the only thing to look forward to is a "back to basics" approach with a miniscule amount of funds possibly going towards the bus system (because who knows where that 400 million is going to go, or if METRO will even get that 400 million). While other cities are moving forward, Houston is moving "back to basics." It's very discouraging to say the least.

The people of Houston want transit, there have been numerous polls that show this. However, it isn't happening. Which means that there is a defficency in our local government and leaders.

[mfastx]

By the way samagon, that was a very interesting article you posted.

Of course there is NIMBYism in other countries, but I think it tends to get in the way more here. They succeed in sabotaging projects that a majority of people are in favor of.

I'd bet that Germany will sort this issue out.

[samagon]

specific to that topic, I hope that Germany is able to appeal the EU to let the transmission lines go through the protected forest, I mean the goal of wind/solar is to protect the overall world environment, and if you have to desecrate some specific micro environments to do so, it only makes sense (imo).

I just realized I pet peeved myself in that reply, I wrote "theirs" when I should have written "there's", and the edit button is gone so I can't fix it please feel free to admonish me publicly as a heretic, and call me a hypocrite whenever I correct someone else using the wrong homonym.

anyway, specific to the topic of transportation, I think so long as the politics don't completely destroy the purpose of what is being done, it's never too bad, everyone should be able to have an opinion, especially when it deals with their backyard, but when the politics completely changes things to a point where it becomes a 'why are we wasting our time on this again?', then it's a problem (in my mind anyway).

[TheNiche]

Well, I wasn't really saying that I wish we were like those countries from a general point of view. I was strictly talking about politics related to infrastructure, which I probably should have clarified. I wish that we could put together respectable infrastructure like those countries.

Hell, I even wish Houston's leaders could be more like... LA for example. They seem to be competent enough to put together some respectable infrastructure, not only for the private automobile, but they are vastly improving their public transportation infrastructure.

I just got back from Europe and the infrastructure there is miles better than anywhere in the states (perhaps outside of select cities, Boston comes to mind).

Anyway, this is way off topic, but we have our own problems here in the US. I'll leave it at that.

I used nuclear disaster as an example specifically because it was an example of failed infrastructure projects and the sumo wrestling example as a way to illustrate the hubris that applies in general, with infrastructure being a subset of what is general. I used Europe as an example because their excessive spending on everything (again, with infrastructure as a component of that) and the consequent debt has caused a crisis. Don't point to them as an example of a functional political system that should be benchmarked to.

So now you're invoking the City and County of Los Angeles, the State of California, and all the other entities involved in transportation there. Let's not forget that California has income taxes of up to 10.5%, sales taxes of 8.75% in Los Angeles, and property taxes that average 1.16% (which is less than the Houston tax rate, except that their property values and the percentage of income spent on housing per capita are soooo much higher than ours...which is in large part because their government puts up such insane barriers to entry on new development, essentially another hidden cost). I honestly can't understand why anybody would want to live there. We should not strive to be like them.

Mind you, I'm not saying that their transit is not better. I've never been to LA and I haven't used commuter transit in Europe...only trains and buses to other cities that were too close to fly between. All that I'm saying is that expensive stuff comes at a price. It is not a foregone conclusion that nice things are worth having in the first place; and that's assuming that you trust [fill in the blank] to deliver nice things unto you in the first place (because Boston comes to mind).

[IHB2]

Of course there is NIMBYism in other countries, but I think it tends to get in the way more here. They succeed in sabotaging projects that a majority of people are in favor of.

NIMBYs in general at least force a public vetting of taxpayer-funded projects. that's good IMO.

in the specific case of METRO's Solutions Plan, NIMBYs caused so much change & delay that METRO's incompetence, lying, and illegal procedures finally came to light with a change of political leadership.

can you imagine where we would be right now had there been no pushback to the Wolff/Wilson regime at METRO?

do you favor nothing but cheerleaders for government projects? is there no need for a government to bring rational planning and competence to the expenditure of tax dollars as long as the project passes the New Urbanism coolness test?

[TheNiche]

Why is it the last thing we need? Again, I am talking strictly from a transportation perspective.

There's no such thing as talking strictly from a transportation perspective. The effect of culture and human frailty at the confluence of local and national politics is inescapable...everywhere and in all things.

The people of Houston want transit, there have been numerous polls that show this. However, it isn't happening. Which means that there is a defficency in our local government and leaders.

I'll bet that polls also favor the lushly shaded medians of North and South Bouelvards in Broadacres. And if the first round of polling doesn't yield the desired results, we can just tweak the question and try again.

[mfastx]

I used nuclear disaster as an example specifically because it was an example of failed infrastructure projects and the sumo wrestling example as a way to illustrate the hubris that applies in general, with infrastructure being a subset of what is general. I used Europe as an example because their excessive spending on everything (again, with infrastructure as a component of that) and the consequent debt has caused a crisis. Don't point to them as an example of a functional political system that should be benchmarked to.

So now you're invoking the City and County of Los Angeles, the State of California, and all the other entities involved in transportation there. Let's not forget that California has income taxes of up to 10.5%, sales taxes of 8.75% in Los Angeles, and property taxes that average 1.16% (which is less than the Houston tax rate, except that their property values and the percentage of income spent on housing per capita are soooo much higher than ours...which is in large part because their government puts up such insane barriers to entry on new development, essentially another hidden cost). I honestly can't understand why anybody would want to live there. We should not strive to be like them.

Mind you, I'm not saying that their transit is not better. I've never been to LA and I haven't used commuter transit in Europe...only trains and buses to other cities that were too close to fly between. All that I'm saying is that expensive stuff comes at a price. It is not a foregone conclusion that nice things are worth having in the first place; and that's assuming that you trust [fill in the blank] to deliver nice things unto you in the first place (because Boston comes to mind).

Niche, you can pick apart anything. I'm sure that you could look at any city in the world and list "x" amount of things wrong with their system, their policies, etc. I just want to improve transit in Houston and I am wondering why we can't seem to do it. While you're criticisms of Los Angeles are valid, that does not change the fact that ~20 million live in the area and most of those people think it's a great place to live. Anyway, that's besides the point.

Obviously good transit comes at a price, and you must know I am in favor of more funding towards mass transit. I think it's a little closed minded to ignore good things about other cities. There's something we can take from many cities and improve our own.

You seem to be against giving additional funding to METRO/public transit. How can public transit improve in Houston without additional funding? Would you rather just not build the University/Uptown lines and keep the status quo?

NIMBYs in general at least force a public vetting of taxpayer-funded projects. that's good IMO.

in the specific case of METRO's Solutions Plan, NIMBYs caused so much change & delay that METRO's incompetence, lying, and illegal procedures finally came to light with a change of political leadership.

can you imagine where we would be right now had there been no pushback to the Wolff/Wilson regime at METRO?

do you favor nothing but cheerleaders for government projects? is there no need for a government to bring rational planning and competence to the expenditure of tax dollars as long as the project passes the New Urbanism coolness test?

It's interesting that you bring that up. Honestly I think it's possible that without NIMBYism and public scrutiny that all of that Wolff/Wilson crap might have flown under the radar. Hell, I know stuff happens in other agencies that no one brings to light. Who knows.

I favor most infrastructure projects. I find the University line to be rational enough. A core light rail line connecting two large empolyment centers (and a direct connection to two more) seems pretty good to me. I'd invest even more money to grade seperate it a little. On the face of it, the MetroSolutions plans seemed pretty good. Good enough for me to favor investment in it.