It's a mindset - College

[JJVilla]

What does that tell you? To me, it indicates that--of those who haven't outright failed and dropped out--the difference between grade scores has a little bit to do with intelligence but mostly has to do with one's aptitude for brown-nosing. Good grades allow bureaucrats and administrators to rank-order a population of students by their ability to reliably and competently follow orders. That reveals very little of one's capacity for critical thinking or creative output, and provides limited insight as to one's ultimate economic productivity. (At its worst, the class ranking process indicates whose parents know how to game the system, and oh yes, it can be gamed.)

Completely agree with the last part, either with their parent's help or otherwise. Many people that were ranked ahead of me in high school failed out of college (I just finished outside the top 10% by 5 or 6 people). They gamed the system and eventually lost.

[Subdude]

From NY Times:

The pay gap between people who attended college and people who didn’t continued to grow — and is now wider than it has ever been. The typical college graduates makes about 75 percent more every week than the typical non-graduate.

So the overall story lines remain the same. College provides a far better economic return than in past decades despite the skepticism you sometimes hear. And one of the more unusual aspects of this downturn is that pay remains higher today for most workers than when the downturn began. But 2010 helped make the trends less severe. Rather than unemployment soaring while pay rose — as happened in 2009 — unemployment and pay both fell somewhat last year.

Link

[sunsets]

I think success is what you make of it, not what fancy papers you have hanging on your wall. What a person learns when they are educated may or may not have any relevancy on what they do for a living. A persons success comes from being able to learn new things, have the initiative to show they are capable every day, and are willing to network.

Yes, yes, yes! This is so very true. And this is what we need to be focusing on when we prepare kids for the future. It seems to me education right now is so "results" oriented (and don't even get me going on the standardized tests!) that we just create these educated rote-learners that can parrot a lot of info, but have no idea about how to synthesize it or what to make of it. Not everyone is cut out for college, true. But everyone should have enough basic knowledge to understand where the employment opportunities are, and how to use what they know to make a living.

We live in the age of Wikipedia, it's not a question of being able to get info. We need to teach kids to think, and think critically.

[Specwriter]

We need to teach kids to think, and think critically.

A million "Amens." My organic chemistry professor came in at the start of class one day and slammed down a stack of papers on his desk. It turns out these were the most recent exams the class took (he was known to do this at least once in each semester). He launched into a diatribe about how poor the grades were, yadda, yadda, yadda but concluded his rant in the usual way (remember most college freshmen weren't yet familiar with his usual way) by saying, "Most of you, even those who go on to become physicians and pharmacists, will not use most of this stuff in your jobs. The point of this class is not to teach you to balance chemical equations - it is to teach you to think!"

In my parents' and grandparents' day learning to think was done at home and in elementary and high school. I guess my generation (baby boomer) was the first that needed to go to college to do that. What's left for future generations if they are not learning to think even in college? I don't mean to sound arrogant but I am, as are most people, too intelligent to allow myself to be trained although I am most willing to be educated.

[Subdude]

On a micro level, it is easy to make the argument that a college degree can help an individual get a better job, better pay, and better chance for advancement. The problem is on the macro level. If EVERYONE got a college degree, but there are only jobs for HALF of them, then one half of those individuals may have wasted their money, and worse, may be saddled with paying college loans on a non-college salary. THOSE individuals would have been far better off getting an education in a trade, earning a respectable wage without the burden of student loans.

An argument as to why it is better on a macro level to have a better educated society (from NYT). It's not just about a matter of plugging grad/non-grads into jobs. A higher level of education in a country contributes to higher aggregate productivity.

Even More Productive Than Americans

By DAVID LEONHARDT

...

But the best measure of productivity is probably output per hour, not output per person. By that measure, our own Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the United States trails at least two other countries, Norway and Ireland.

Norway and Ireland have something else in common. A decade and a half ago, they both trailed the United States in education attainment. In the United States, 33 percent of young adults in 1995 received a four-year college degree in the mid-1990s, compared with 26 percent in Norway and 30 percent or less in Ireland. (The earliest data point for Ireland from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development comes from the year 2000.)

Since the mid-1990s, though, Norway and Ireland have passed us. By 2008, the United States had increased its college graduation rate to merely 37 percent, while Norway was at 41 percent and Ireland at 46 percent.

There’s a relationship between these two patterns. More educated, skilled workers tend to be more productive. And more productive societies tend to grow faster and become richer.

Economix link

[RedScare]

And what do we do with that 54 to 63% that do not have a college education? Your own link states that more than half the adults in the most productive countries have not completed a college education. And, do we need, or even want, college educated construction workers, waiters and landscapers? Is that a wise use of education resources? Or do you believe a country of degreed professionals would no longer need their lawn mowed or their oil changed?

[WAZ]

And what do we do with that 54 to 63% that do not have a college education? Your own link states that more than half the adults in the most productive countries have not completed a college education. And, do we need, or even want, college educated construction workers, waiters and landscapers? Is that a wise use of education resources? Or do you believe a country of degreed professionals would no longer need their lawn mowed or their oil changed?

Again I'll ask what is a college education? I went to four years of undergrad. By most arguments, I have a college education. But what about the lady who did a 2 year associate's degree? Do we say she has a college education? How about the guy who did a four week certification course? Is he college educated?

There's a tendency to oversimplify the argument "everyone needs to go to college," by assuming it means "everyone needs to get a four year college degree."

[RedScare]

The posts suggesting that everyone should get a college degree seem to be intimating the 4 year bachelor's variety. My suggestion is that education in this country should be upgraded in the non-traditional areas. The 63% who are not getting usable skills, but will never attain a bachelor's degree, are the ones we need to worry about. It should be noted that the problem is not just in the schools. When manufacturing jobs and other skilled trades are disappearing here, no amount of trade school education will secure employment. However, the initial post suggest that 100% college enrollment for HISD students should be a goal. That posts suggests a goal for the sake of goals, as opposed to doing what is best for individual students. Links to articles lauding 46% of adults with college degrees as world leaders only proves my point.

[TheNiche]

An argument as to why it is better on a macro level to have a better educated society (from NYT). It's not just about a matter of plugging grad/non-grads into jobs. A higher level of education in a country contributes to higher aggregate productivity.

Economix link

The study identified a correlation between an increase in education and an increase in productivity, and of course productivity translates directly into earnings.

That begs the question, however, as to whether an increase in earnings correlates with an increase in the demand for education. I think the answer is an emphatic yes. I'd posit that earnings also affect the kind of education that is attempted, for instance whether someone is going after a professional, technical, or scientific degree or a soft degree that is mostly just a place-filler for someone whose angst-filled life has no better direction or pressing unfulfilled needs.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd also like to mention how all this recent unrest in North Africa and the Middle East was pretty directly linked to a macro-level attempt at educating a population for the sake of an economic development program that didn't work.

[samagon]

Again I'll ask what is a college education? I went to four years of undergrad. By most arguments, I have a college education. But what about the lady who did a 2 year associate's degree? Do we say she has a college education? How about the guy who did a four week certification course? Is he college educated?

There's a tendency to oversimplify the argument "everyone needs to go to college," by assuming it means "everyone needs to get a four year college degree."

I certainly don't consider myself having a college education, although I do have an associates degree. hell, I don't even know where the parchment is anymore.

Anyway, everyone does not need a college education.

Everyone does need to understand the following:

without self motivation you won't go anywhere

in order to stay ahead you have to continue to learn every day of your life

network every day, the guy you are rude to on the phone with today, may be looking to hire someone with your skills tomorrow

Whether you're cutting grass, cultivating illegal narcotics, managing a bank, or a CEO of some random company, you won't get ahead and stay ahead if you don't understand.

As far as that article that correlates productivity with education, I don't buy it, there are way too many variables to even consider that a 15 year study is enough to draw any conclusion at all.

edit: think of it this way (to further the point someone made about lawn care)...

are you willing to pay someone extra to cut your lawn if they have a college education?

probably not.

How is anything else any different? If someone has the experience and the references to back that experience up (lets say in the role of a design consultant with dirigibles), who cares if they have a piece of paper that says they majored in anthropology?

[lockmat]

edit: think of it this way (to further the point someone made about lawn care)...

are you willing to pay someone extra to cut your lawn if they have a college education?

probably not.

How is anything else any different? If someone has the experience and the references to back that experience up (lets say in the role of a design consultant with dirigibles), who cares if they have a piece of paper that says they majored in anthropology?

In reality, experience only means something if you have the degree, in most cases. Like I said before, there are plenty of jobs people without a degree can't even get a sniff at b/c they don't have one, regardless of experience. Almost always if two people with the same amount of experience go in for an interview, the one with the degree will get the job.

I agree, experience should weigh more than a degree in a lot of cases, but it's just not the way it is.

Plus, a lot of people see someone who has a degree as more responsible. Yeah, it's not necessarily that hard to get one, but look at how many people actually do. Ones who don't get one either made bad/immature decisions right out of high school, or went and were not disciplined enough to get through it. There are other legitimate reasons why people don't get one, but very few people don't go because they had some better or smarter plan.

[dbigtex56]

In reality, experience only means something if you have the degree, in most cases.

very few people don't go because they had some better or smarter plan.

This is probably true for most corporate positions. For small businesses or entrepreneurs the ability to actually get things done is paramount.

As you mentioned in your letter, the mindset is what counts. Does anyone know (or care) what level of education Mattress Mac has achieved? There have been plenty of immigrants in Houston who have had little formal education (or degrees which are not recognized here) who have built successful businesses - contractors, convenience store owners, real estate investors, and yes, lawn care.

The education is the icing, but the work ethic is the cake.