White Oak Bayou Developments

[mcook2002]

Yeah, sure. But its another option. J00b wants options. While we're at it, J00b really ought to set up a petition to compel the FAA and TXDoT to accommodate ultralight aircraft like the Mosquito ultralight helicopter as a commute solution. And why not!? It's another option, and very practical compared to METRO.

sweet jesus. hands down you are the most annoying poster on this entire board. sad part is you don't even live in the heights.

[TheNiche]

sweet jesus. hands down you are the most annoying poster on this entire board. sad part is you don't even live in the heights.

I drive through it, though. Makes me feel entitled.

[Texasota]

Exactly why those damned feeders are being built.

[RedScare]

Kayaking to work adds additional headache over a bicycle.

You have to portage the kayak from the bayou to the office, and then when you get there, there's no kayak racks to lock up to (plus, I don't know of any companies that make kayak locks).

Seems to me that we should ask the City to provide these things. Families wanting to walk or bike kayak after work/school would have safe passage for the full length of the bike path bayou.

[Texasota]

While I realize that most people don't really take cycling seriously, some of us actually do commute by bike, and the combination of the existing MKT trail and the Heritage trail will create a nice, safe and direct bike trail from the Heights into downtown. I *wish* we had something similar in Montrose. It's much cheaper to build a bike trail than a road, and it's a great way to get people who aren't comfortable riding in city streets on a bike.

[fwki]

While I realize that most people don't really take cycling seriously.....

It's the costumes they wear that make it difficult, and then when they group-up and all dress in the same costume, it's hard to drive over the laughter. These guys make the Shriners look like IBM salesmen.

[samagon]

so much hate for cyclists

Texasota, I REALLY wish there was a safe/viable option for me to ride my bike along highway 3 to get to work, it's 13 miles one way, and I would not mind the commute by bike, but damn, there's no way in hell I would ride my bike down highway 3 without a bicycle path running along the railway.

Anyway, I would sign the petition (even though online petitions are completely useless) if it were more towards doing real improvements for bicycle safety around the city, not just centered on the Heights, I mean, looky here:

http://maps.google.c...119.62,,0,11.15

this bicycle path crosses a feeder road for 45 where the speed limit is 40mph, which means people realistically drive between 45 and 50. This path is not used as heavily as the one in the Heights, but it is a exceedingly less safe crossing location for cyclists, or families that have babies in strollers.

Edited March 1, 2012 by samagon

[TheNiche]

so much hate for cyclists

At least you aren't a kayaker.

[samagon]

At least you aren't a kayaker.

I had to give it up because people would honk and try to run me off the road

that and kayaks are very unstable on a street.

Edited March 1, 2012 by samagon

[SilverJK]

That reminds me of the urban kayaking segment from Jackass.

I'm going to make up a statistic that perhaps will have value here:

Total trips made by car/truck/bus/etc = A

Total trips made on bicycles = B

Total cost spent for roads for car/truck/bus/etc = C

Total cost spent for bicycle paths = D

does B/A = D/C ? Obviously not. It seems like a disproportionate amount of money is being spent for car/truck/bus/etc. to me, but then again I'm just making this formula up. (no references)

[samagon]

can we add kayaks to your equation? I am willing to bet there is proportionally less money spent on roads designed for kayaking than total trips by kayak.

anyway, I think it'd be impossible to determine since bicycles travel on roads, but cars do not travel on bicycle paths.

I did a lot of searching yesterday for cost/mile of bicycle path and only found one site that said it was between $5000 and $50000 per mile (which is hugely disparate). I'm guessing that $5000 is when they paint lines on the road designating it as a cycling path. how much is each mile of road? what are the potential volumes of each vs the actual volumes of each? etc.

I'd tend to think you're correct on cost vs use, but that's got nothing behind it to back it up.

[Texasota]

There are other factors as well though.

Example: long term maintenance. Dedicated bike paths dont get the constant pounding that roads do so they dont cost as much to maintain.

I know when I lived in Minneapolis they had a better bike path system, but I don't think they spent more than 15% of their transportation budget on it (I think thats right- I knew the exact number at one point but id have to look it up to be sure. To give you an idea of what they have there: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=minneapolis,+mn&hl=en&sll=29.700579,-95.40184&sspn=0.540967,1.128845&gl=us&hnear=Minneapolis,+Hennepin,+Minnesota&t=m&z=12&lci=bike

They've been doing it longer than Houston has though- honestly I'm impressed by the new trails and work on the bayou trails over the last decade. Plus our trails are rarely covered in ice and snow.

[TheNiche]

Good points, but I've also noticed that bike paths aren't engineered to the same exacting standards and often have washover during moderate rainfall that results in the path being muddy. French drains and culverts could solve many of those problems, but don't. It's one reason that I tend to stay away from the Buffalo Bayou trails, in particular. So there is definitely a maintenance requirement, and it is often underfunded.

Looking at the Google Maps bike trails for Minneapolis as compared to Houston, I notice some things. One is that Minneapolis proper isn't especially impressive. Some of Minneapolis' suburban municipalities are very impressive, others are not at all. (Makes you wonder whether some are simply more tech-savvy than others.)

In the City of Houston, it seems that the officially designated bike paths are indicated, as are many of those in the well-known public parks, and that the larger master planned communities do a good job. However, the paths in certain municipalities, parks, and master planned communities are completely unaccounted for. So, whereas every single sidewalk in Discovery Green is indicated as a dedicated bike path, there is nary a path to be found at F.M. Law Park...even though there are paths. And whereas every sidewalk at UH and also its gravel running track along Spur 5 are indicated as dedicated bike paths...which is ridiculous, poor neglected TSU doesn't even have the old Wheeler Street ROW indicated as one...even though its certainly appropriate as one and is very pleasant.)

The take-away is that Google Maps bike trails aren't perfect. Also, it's probably a valid criticism about Houstonians that we're less technically savvy and less self-important than most populations. We aren't show ponies, we're only work horses.

[Texasota]

Well, don't forget that there's an enrmous difference in scale: Minneapolis is all of 50 square miles so it might be more meaningful to compare Houston to the Twin Cities as a whole. Additionally, Google Maps doesn't really show the difference in quality. Our best trail is probably the MKT trail, which, while great, does not even remotely compare to the Midtown Greenway. In terms of connectivity, the Greenway runs through Uptown and Midtown, but connects to the Grand Rounds trails to the West, the Mississippi River trails to the east, and the Hiawatha trail which squirts you to the UofM campus and downtown. There's a bike store that fronts directly onto the Greenway. Most of the Greenway is below grade, so it feels incredibly safe and separate from traffic.

I realize much of this is not directly transferable to Houston (a trail below grade would quickly just become another bayou) but I do think it shows that safety and connectivity are extremely important to increasing cycling. MKT connecting to the Heritage trails is a great start, but it is just a start. A direct connection through Downtown to the Columbia Tap would be great and would make commuting from greater Heights to UH more appealing. My personal biggest pet peeve as a cyclist is the lack of north-south routes through Montrose. There are a few areas where traffic can get really dicey, and Waugh, the most logical street by which to cross Allen Parkway, seems to get worse on a weekly basis. I would argue for restriping Waugh from Gray to Washington so that its 2 lanes of traffic in each direction, a consistent center turn lane, and nice wide well marked bike lanes.

[TheNiche]

Okay, so we both agree that the bike trails depicted on Google Maps are not representative of anything in particular. And here's a thought. Lets do bike lanes on uncongested streets. Not Waugh.

Edited March 2, 2012 by TheNiche

[heights_yankee]

so much hate for cyclists

Texasota, I REALLY wish there was a safe/viable option for me to ride my bike along highway 3 to get to work, it's 13 miles one way, and I would not mind the commute by bike, but damn, there's no way in hell I would ride my bike down highway 3 without a bicycle path running along the railway.

Anyway, I would sign the petition (even though online petitions are completely useless) if it were more towards doing real improvements for bicycle safety around the city, not just centered on the Heights, I mean, looky here:

http://maps.google.c...119.62,,0,11.15

this bicycle path crosses a feeder road for 45 where the speed limit is 40mph, which means people realistically drive between 45 and 50. This path is not used as heavily as the one in the Heights, but it is a exceedingly less safe crossing location for cyclists, or families that have babies in strollers.

The Heights has had a woman killed jogging and a biker hit by a car in the last few months. From the discussion leading up to the petition, I can say that it's based in the Heights because it was started by people who live in the Heights. The more serious bikers, some of whom are parents and some of whom are not, hope that this can just help be a stepping stone for other areas. If all the neighborhoods the bike path goes through put out similar petitions, organizations like Bike Houston could make an even stronger case for the whole city. The idea is that this petition may not/will noy get anything done on it's own, but it backs up what some other orgs (like Bike Houston, CTC, etc) are trying to do. Eventually, some of the people who organized the petition will go down in front of City Hall and show an additional group, albeit smaller, than the others who have been lobbying for this already.

[heights_yankee]

I probably use these trails more than the average person in the neighborhood, and I've never once felt any form of danger for myself. I have seen a few teens and dumb adults barrel through these intersections without even looking though. I agree with Niche, I dont think we should receive a disproportionate amount of funding to make this happen. If the petition included a section for the neighborhood to raise funding necessary to make these changes I would gladly sign it. If the city approves of the desired changes the group could organize one of those websites to raise the money in a certain timeframe. I'd gladly throw a little bit of money to help make it happen (even though I don't think I personally need the changes whatsoever).

I'd love to see the residents get more active in paying for improvements, I think enough people are willing to throw their own coin at some projects to get them done and stop waiting for the city to pay for it.

Actually, finding funds on their own is part of what the group has in mind. The petition is just a way to gauge/show support. After all, even if we (the neighborhood) can raise the funds, the City still has to want us to do it and let us do it.

While the petition is about pedestrian controlled lights at these intersections, it's really about not starting at a point of compromise. This is the ideal for some people, but there are other acceptable options. While I am very careful on my bike, the fact that I have 2 small passengers towed behind me makes me take a little longer to get through intersections. On Nicholson, I think the rise in the road helps slow people down. However, on White Oak, you'll see a car doing 40 get passed on the left by a car doing 50 and they don't even realize there is a bike path there because it's not clearly marked.

[TheNiche]

On Nicholson, I think the rise in the road helps slow people down. However, on White Oak, you'll see a car doing 40 get passed on the left by a car doing 50 and they don't even realize there is a bike path there because it's not clearly marked.

I can't speak for any other young invincible males with sporty vehicles, but the rise in the road at Nicholson is the kind of thing that I accelerate for. It's fun. White Oak itself isn't as fun; only the bars on White Oak are at all fun.

[SilverJK]

I'm on the trails on a longboard. Not exactly the fastest accelerating or stopping vehicle. My wife and I (Young invincible DINKS) haven't really had any issues crossing streets. The only issue I could see is people being impatient. This I've seen several times People pulling into the street and waiting in the near lane for the car in the far lane to pass, but that car is actually turning on nicholson so they get stuck in the road with cars coming from both sides. moo.

[samagon]

The take-away is that Google Maps bike trails aren't perfect. Also, it's probably a valid criticism about Houstonians that we're less technically savvy and less self-important than most populations. We aren't show ponies, we're only work horses.

lol. look at this: http://maps.google.com/?ll=29.765688,-95.396855&spn=0.001177,0.001635&hnear=Houston,+Texas+77002&t=h&z=20&lci=bike

yeah, I've ridden that on my bike. I know it looks like a really tight switchback, and well it is. I'd say that isn't exactly a 'bike path' just to prove out your point that GM isn't perfect...

[s3mh]

lol. look at this: http://maps.google.c...h&z=20&lci=bike

yeah, I've ridden that on my bike. I know it looks like a really tight switchback, and well it is. I'd say that isn't exactly a 'bike path' just to prove out your point that GM isn't perfect...

Alpe D'Huez, Houston style.

Back to the subject, anyone who has little kids knows that crossing a four lane street like 11th or Yale can be dangerous. Walking across with a toddler can be terrifying if your little one decides to do one of those sit down tantrums while crossing the street. Biking across can also be tough as kids often have trouble going from a stop to riding when they are new on their bikes. Anything to make those crossings safer is welcome. If the bike trail isn't for everyone, then it was a waste of money.

[TheNiche]

If the bike trail isn't for everyone, then it was a waste of money.

The bike trail is not useful to my delightfully demented 90-year-old grandmother, whose random trips and falls are legendary. We should probably tear it up because she can't safely use it. It was obviously a waste of money. [facepalm]

When I was a kid of that age, I played and biked in the road with the trucks and the rattlesnakes, I splashed in the garden mud pits amongst the grub worms, and wandered down into the creek alone or with the neighbor kid with all kinds of flora and fauna and also the occasional flash flood. Not even kidding. That's what little kids should do. With some luck and some wit, I survived. Your kids might not. Its impossible to tell. Life happens; it shouldn't come to a standstill over a little risk.

[RedScare]

Alpe D'Huez, Houston style.

If the bike trail isn't for everyone, then it was a waste of money.

Possibly your most ignorant post yet.

Other wastes of money:

Public swimming pools, since not everyone can swim (especially toddlers)

Skate Park by Fonde Rec Center

Fonde Rec Center, since white men can't jump

Tennis courts

softball fields

soccer fields

libraries, since not everyone can read

Roads, since not everyone can drive or owns a car

I could go on, but my head hurts.

[samagon]

Alpe D'Huez, Houston style.

Back to the subject, anyone who has little kids knows that crossing a four lane street like 11th or Yale can be dangerous. Walking across with a toddler can be terrifying if your little one decides to do one of those sit down tantrums while crossing the street. Biking across can also be tough as kids often have trouble going from a stop to riding when they are new on their bikes. Anything to make those crossings safer is welcome. If the bike trail isn't for everyone, then it was a waste of money.

since the bike trail in the Heights isn't for me, I agree and no more money should be sunk into that wasted project!

Edited March 5, 2012 by samagon

[s3mh]

Possibly your most ignorant post yet.

Other wastes of money:

Public swimming pools, since not everyone can swim (especially toddlers)

Skate Park by Fonde Rec Center

Fonde Rec Center, since white men can't jump

Tennis courts

softball fields

soccer fields

libraries, since not everyone can read

Roads, since not everyone can drive or owns a car

I could go on, but my head hurts.

No, but definitely your most ignorant post yet. As usual, you take my simple and clear arguments and twist them into something they are not in order to make yourself feel like you have refuted by arguments. My point was that the hike and bike paths are a waste if they cannot be used by everyone who should be able to use them because there need to be safer crossings. You twisted that into an argument that anything that is not used by everyone is a waste of money. That is not the argument. The point is that the hike and bike trails were built for everyone to use, especially the many families in the Heights, but are not safe for everyone because they lack safe crossings. So, why put all that money into the trails and not go the distance to make them safe?

[TheNiche]

The point is that the hike and bike trails were built for everyone to use, especially the many families in the Heights, but are not safe for everyone because they lack safe crossings. So, why put all that money into the trails and not go the distance to make them safe?

We understand your point. It was clearly stated and restated. Your position is that they aren't safe for my grandmother because they aren't made of foam rubber. She could fall and die! They should be made of foam rubber or they shouldn't be there at all.

[RedScare]

Your post was very clear...and very wrong. Nowhere does it state that the bike trails were built or intended for "everyone". You simply made that statement up. Then, based on your made-up statement, you declare the trails a waste of money if not changed.

I simply called you out on your contrived statement (I enjoy that sort of thing). Since your conclusion is based oncontrived criteria, your conclusion is wrong. Hence the conclusion on my part that your statement was "ignorant".

[SilverJK]

So, why put all that money into the trails and not go the distance to make them safe?

Safety is just like... your opinion man.

I find them adequately safe for me on my longboard (along with my fellow longboard friends that regularly use the trail). What would really make the trails safer would be if people would use proper walking/jogging/biking/skating etiquette. I crashed into the grass and almost hit my head on a curb because a family insisted on riding 3-4 abreast instead of in a line. There was just enough room for me to pass on the side when one of the kids went wide and i had to run into the grass (skateboards/longboards do not roll on the grass very well) and had to do a ninja roll/flip to avoid getting hurt.

Therefore, it is my opinion that the trail is safer for everyone that uses it if families are not allowed to ride it. The trail will NEVER be safe for all, there are risks involved in walking/jogging/biking/skating/breathing. Even with the new signals and etc., do you really think there will be fewer accidents? Really?

[kylejack]

Honestly, it seems like a pretty bad idea to run a trail down a median.

[RedScare]

Honestly, it seems like a pretty bad idea to run a trail down a median.

I agree. To make it worse, the people using the trail in the median apparently believe that everyone should stop for them. Check out this quote on RUDH's Facebook page asking for support of the petition...

In December 2011, a young mother was killed at Heights and 11th due to poor intersection management.

With all due respect to the deceased, she did not die due to poor intersection management. She died because she ran in front of a moving vehicle. There was not a problem with the lights. She was not paying attention, and ran in front of a vehicle against the red light for Heights traffic, including joggers. No amount of safety measures...short of a gate...will protect those who run into a street without looking.