America's Mass Murders

[RedScare]

I saw a news segment this afternoon that pointed that just this year, 9 men in separate incidents have killed almost 50 people in addition to 6 of the shooters also dying. In a Pavlovian response, the usual suspects will demand either the abolition of guns or the addition of even more guns. Both groups completely miss the point. The point that few seem willing to discuss is the fact that we live in a society obsessed with guns and violence. It is only natural that in a gun-happy and violent culture, some of those who come unhinged will leave the world in this manner.

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The question I have is this. Is this the US that we are doomed to have? Has the culture of violence...even amongst our law-abiding citizenry...become so pervasive that we are resigned to this fate, that on a regular basis, those whose despair at not achieving the mythical 'American Dream' has become unbearable will take gun(s) in hand and take out as many fellow Americans as possible before leaving themselves? And what got us to this point? Why ARE we so obsessed with violence, especially by firearm?

It is not a pretty picture. I wonder if it will ever change.

[editor]

I saw a news segment this afternoon that pointed that just this year, 9 men in separate incidents have killed almost 50 people in addition to 6 of the shooters also dying. In a Pavlovian response, the usual suspects will demand either the abolition of guns or the addition of even more guns. Both groups completely miss the point. The point that few seem willing to discuss is the fact that we live in a society obsessed with guns and violence. It is only natural that in a gun-happy and violent culture, some of those who come unhinged will leave the world in this manner.

Visit My Website

The question I have is this. Is this the US that we are doomed to have? Has the culture of violence...even amongst our law-abiding citizenry...become so pervasive that we are resigned to this fate, that on a regular basis, those whose despair at not achieving the mythical 'American Dream' has become unbearable will take gun(s) in hand and take out as many fellow Americans as possible before leaving themselves? And what got us to this point? Why ARE we so obsessed with violence, especially by firearm?

It is not a pretty picture. I wonder if it will ever change.

I sometimes wonder if America is actually LESS violent these days than earlier in its history. When you think about how in America's early days and westward expansion even minor grievances were settled with a gun, it seems possible. That, coupled with the fact that many people are shocked by the deaths of one, two, or even three people states away from them.

Don't know if it's true. Just something I've kicked around from time to time.

As is often the case, I blame Hollywood. It seems like more often than not, conflicts in movies, video, and music are settled with violence rather than problem solving. Just seems like lazy writing to me.

[RedScare]

I sometimes wonder if America is actually LESS violent these days than earlier in its history.

You are very likely correct that there is less violence than America's earliest days, when there were few available police officers, especially in the undeveloped and rural areas. It should be noted that the US is much less violent in terms of homicide than the 70s, 80s and 90s, as well. While many love to claim homicide in Houston is 'out of control', the fact remains that murder rates in Houston are down about 75% from 1981, our deadliest year.

However, the mass murder/suicide trend has clearly exploded in popularity. What is causing this drastic increase in random mass shootings? Is it Hollywood? Is it computer games? Is it angry talk radio? Who knows?

[lockmat]

All those gunmen to one extent or another were selfish. They were thinking about themselves. Obviously they weren't taking into consideration the interests of those they killed. Sure there are a lot of people out there who think of others, but our country is now much about the "American Dream" and the way to get it is by putting self first. The way to have the ideal society Obama wants to bring in is not by forcing people to give to others via taxes but to put others first and to be content with what you have, while pursuing excellence. The American Dream has now become about money and material things. People have misinterpreted happiness and are finding out money, material things, jobs, money or sex cannot ultimately bring happiness. Their false expectations are not being met.

[20thStDad]

I think Hollywood plays a part. I also think the sissification of american children these days plays a part. Fewer children are being raised without being coddled, there's not enough tough love and hard lessons. When things don't go their way they choose a cowardly way out and bring innocent people with them. I think there are a couple of reasons they do that - 1) with the humiliation they feel, they have a need to lash out against those they feel are judging them (even if those people are not), and 2) for the family killings the shame is so great they can't bear for their families to see them as a failure, and as their suicide is emminant to leave them alone in worse off shape than when the loser was alive.

I did not study psychology so I'm sure someone who did has much better theories. I just think true "honor" is becoming more rare. Disappointment and failure bring on actions inspired and dramatized by tv and movies. I wish we could find a way to resuscitate those who kill themselves, only to not allow them to die and make them get off their asses and work their way out of whatever hole they dug themselves. Suicide is cowardly no matter how you look at it.

[TheNiche]

All those gunmen to one extent or another were selfish. They were thinking about themselves. Obviously they weren't taking into consideration the interests of those they killed. Sure there are a lot of people out there who think of others, but our country is now much about the "American Dream" and the way to get it is by putting self first.

I disagree on two different levels: 1) they wanted the people they shot to die; they were not indifferent to them and were clearly taking into consideration the interests of those they killed and were acting against them in spite. And 2) selflessness that, itself, brings pleasure to a person is done because it is beneficial to that person; it is selfishness too.

The American Dream has now become about money and material things. People have misinterpreted happiness and are finding out money, material things, jobs, money or sex cannot ultimately bring happiness. Their false expectations are not being met.

That is not uniformly true. Different people have all kinds of different expectations and goals. It is not easy to generalize, except to say that some people have unrealistic goals, the precise nature of which are interpreted in a relativistic way.

[TJones]

20th St. we are talking about a 41 yr. old man in that immigration shooting, who from what co-workers are saying, was keeping a deep seeded anger towards America. He apparently never had any convictions on his record as he obviously owned 2 handguns registered in his name. His family had no clue how disturbed he was, and I can only speculate that he just snapped after losing his job in November and perhaps seeing new "citizens" coming in to possibly take any job prospects he might have, sent him over the edge ? So, we aren't talking about some punk kids going out to fulfill some fantasy after seeing "The Basketball Diaries". These latest wastes of DNA were not impressionable young minds, they were adult men that were broken. We need to keep in mind that there are just lots of plain CRAZY people with a beef against the world. Outlawing guns doesn't make these criminals go away or stop them from doing evil. Having MORE guns is not the answer either. Having the proper protocols in place for law abiding citizens to own guns helps keep the lawless at bay, to an extent. There is always gonna be that one or two that fall through the cracks, the world is not a perfect place.

[RedScare]

These latest wastes of DNA were not impressionable young minds, they were adult men that were broken.

True, only the Pittsburgh killer might qualify, as he was a 23 year old who had just lost a job.

[TheNiche]

I think Hollywood plays a part. I also think the sissification of american children these days plays a part. Fewer children are being raised without being coddled, there's not enough tough love and hard lessons. When things don't go their way they choose a cowardly way out and bring innocent people with them. I think there are a couple of reasons they do that - 1) with the humiliation they feel, they have a need to lash out against those they feel are judging them (even if those people are not), and 2) for the family killings the shame is so great they can't bear for their families to see them as a failure, and as their suicide is emminant to leave them alone in worse off shape than when the loser was alive.

I did not study psychology so I'm sure someone who did has much better theories. I just think true "honor" is becoming more rare. Disappointment and failure bring on actions inspired and dramatized by tv and movies. I wish we could find a way to resuscitate those who kill themselves, only to not allow them to die and make them get off their asses and work their way out of whatever hole they dug themselves. Suicide is cowardly no matter how you look at it.

You're viewing the subject from a rational perspective. However, such people do not act rationally.

I peg it more on mental illness than on coddling. Back in the day, mental illness was thought of in much more harsh terms. People would hide it. And bad things would happen as a consequence. Today, mental illness is treated not unlike like a curable disease. It is more acceptable and more forgivable. Thusly, more people get the treatment they need and are able to reform themselves more effectively. Drug use probably has a fair bit to do with it, as well. I wouldn't go so far as to say that drug use is under control or even that it is diminishing, however by my observations, most people have a vastly superior attitude in dealing with them; they know the meaning of the words moderation and responsibility...concepts that largely eluded baby boomers.

And...unfortunately...I speak as someone who has experience in murder/suicides. A year and a half after I left for college in Houston, my high school love interest pulled one of these on the guy that she was then dating. Five successive .357's to his head, one to hers. Nobody knows the specifics leading up to it, except that they were having a heated argument, having just moved back to McAllen from San Antonio. I could write a very compelling book on the full story from beginning to end, but suffice it to say she was emotionally imbalanced. I had kept her more or less in line with plenty of support, but she had problems with refusing drugs of all sort and one time got really flipped out on way too many hits of acid. It took her a couple days to recover and she was never quite the same. I believe that it triggered a mild form of schizophrenia which progressed into something more severe. Shortly after I heard the news, I changed my major from psychology to business. My psych professors were amazed at me, they believed I had a ridiculously bright future...but it wasn't one that I wanted to dabble in. These people were too much trouble, and would be the end of me.

Coincidentally--or perhaps not, if this ends up relating to my taste in women--my dad drunkenly revealed to me recently that he had himself only once used LSD. I think he brought it up because of my penchant for psychedelic culture, albeit without the hallucinogens. For him, it was a terrible experience, one that he was tricked into. He believes that it triggered his severe Bipolar II disorder. And I can remember moments when I was growing up (from a very young age) where he'd become too far gone, whether manic or depressive and I'd sneak into the bedroom to take the rifle from under the bed and stash it for a while. ...just in case.

I have another more recent data point to draw from, the suicide of my best friend's father. A psychotic episode was induced resulting from medication that was prescribed to combat debilitating allergies and the doctor had failed to communicate some of the side effects to the family. Apparently psychosis and suicidal tendencies were among them. Fortunately, he didn't take any of his family with him, but one could view this as a selfish act even though it was clearly the result of a drug-induced state. I knew him well, and he was the antithesis of selfish or cowardly. He was a person that I am proud to have known.

[TJones]

True, only the Pittsburgh killer might qualify, as he was a 23 year old who had just lost a job.

I will give you that one. Now, there was just another one, where the P.O.S. killed his 5 kids and himself because his wife left him for another man. So, I don't think there is one common denominator working here, except perhaps for some sort of "loss" as the trigger ?

[musicman]

these aren't mass suicides.

[gwilson]

First, it has nothing to do with guns. These people would simply find other ways to play out their homicidal tendencies. Guns, like swords, sticks, bats, bombs, etc are only tools. The desire to kill comes from the person, not the tool.

That said, I don't really think they are any more popular today. We simply hear about them more and more and in a much more rapid fashion. It is the same reason why a politician who's personal life is none of our business is now news. Everyone knew Kennedy was screwing Marilyn Monroe, but because we didn't have a money driven, ratings based news media which has to MAKE news (not report it), these things are now drilled in to our brains.

As far as the subject of guns, the wide spread presence of guns causes those with the ability to still think rationally to think twice about doing such a thing. If someone walks in to a movie theater/restaurant/book store where I am and tries to commit mass murder, it will likely like not turn out well for him unless I am the first one to get shot and there is no warning.

[jmancuso]

i have a feeling these will increase as the economy continues to sink.

[Fringe]

these aren't mass suicides.

Agreed. Jonestown was a mass suicide. This is mass murder followed by suicide. I can't imagine what is going on in these people minds. I don't think it's anything new but I'm old enough to remember Charles Whitman.

[20thStDad]

I agree that some/most of these crazies are not young and impressionable. I did not mean to indicate that I think they watch it on tv and think it is cool, only that movies and news show us a fair number of these and it plants the idea of it in their heads. Media unintentionally plant a ton of bad ideas in crazy people's heads every day. Otherwise they may have come up with something completely different, better or worse, to end their situation. Maybe not, who knows.

Right, not mass suicides. Just murder-suicides. So maybe I'm OT.

[sunsets]

Clearly there's a mental illness at work. It must be insanely frustrating to sociologists, since the perpetrators of these acts nearly always off themselves. It's not like you can just ask them what the hell they were thinking at the time.

I sometimes wonder, why is it always men who do this? Is it some sort of social conditioning or is it biological programming that gives them this urge to take out a bunch of victims? I don't think I've ever heard of a woman pulling out a rifle and shooting multiple people.

[crunchtastic]

I sometimes wonder, why is it always men who do this? Is it some sort of social conditioning or is it biological programming that gives them this urge to take out a bunch of victims? I don't think I've ever heard of a woman pulling out a rifle and shooting multiple people.

I had exactly the same repsonse--why is is overwhelmingly men? Niche's experience notwithstanding (and it was single act of violence) the only comparable I can think of a woman slaughtering her entire family was the woman in Clear Lake drowning her children. What drives a man, but not a woman, to come home, kill the whole family, then himself? I suspect in many cases despair or panic is a factor, but not necessarily mental illness per se.

[N Judah]

I see these shootings as mostly political acts. To me they are the equivalent of strapping a bomb to your chest and hitting up a checkpoint, except the checkpoints are everywhere and instead of clearly defined boundaries the battle is everywhere around us. These guys obviously felt like their back was against the wall and did what they had to do to make their point.

[sunsets]

The idea that it's a political act makes some sense. I would argue that it's different than the example of a suicide bombing. In those cases, it seems that the perpetrators believe themselves to be part of a group fighting against the oppressor (and that they'll get their reward in the end). Maybe that's just it, though, these guys might be suicide bombers in another situation, but they're loners and they have to act out against a perceived injustice. Something is feeding their delusions, however.

[editor]

Thread title changed.

And Memebag's unnecessary and unfunny remark has been removed.

[RedScare]

First, it has nothing to do with guns. These people would simply find other ways to play out their homicidal tendencies. Guns, like swords, sticks, bats, bombs, etc are only tools. The desire to kill comes from the person, not the tool.

That said, I don't really think they are any more popular today. We simply hear about them more and more and in a much more rapid fashion. It is the same reason why a politician who's personal life is none of our business is now news. Everyone knew Kennedy was screwing Marilyn Monroe, but because we didn't have a money driven, ratings based news media which has to MAKE news (not report it), these things are now drilled in to our brains.

As far as the subject of guns, the wide spread presence of guns causes those with the ability to still think rationally to think twice about doing such a thing. If someone walks in to a movie theater/restaurant/book store where I am and tries to commit mass murder, it will likely like not turn out well for him unless I am the first one to get shot and there is no warning.

I'm still waiting for the report of the man who killed 13 people by methodically beating them with a baseball bat. I might point out (though it should be obvious) that these 6 incidents, claiming 47 lives, have occurred since March 10, despite the estimated 215 million firearms held by private citizens in the US. But, I did not start this thread to debate gun control. I actually started it in an attempt to understand why such a large number of Americans...including the law-abiding ones like yourself...are so obsessed with guns and gun violence. Your post is actually an example of what I am asking about. Outside of the US, few people fantasize about strapping on a firearm and heroically taking out a mass murderer at a bookstore. They don't think about mass murder at a book store at all. Why do Americans even think about carrying their handgun into a book store, when others only think about carrying their reading glasses?

[RedScare]

Thread title changed.

I had actually worded it that way on purpose, to allude to the fact that most of these people are planning a suicide, but intend to bring death and misery to many of those around them in the process. I'm sorry that one poster, who did not even contribute to the discussion, missed my point.

Now that the title is changed, maybe we can get back to the question. Why?

[sunsets]

The glorious righting of the wrongs that the killer had to endure seems to be at the crux of all this.

Most of these were on a smaller scale, but the revenge killing/mass slaughter is well-known among graduate students.

Here's a summary

The last quote in the article

[Jeebus]

However, the mass murder/suicide trend has clearly exploded in popularity. What is causing this drastic increase in random mass shootings? Is it Hollywood? Is it computer games? Is it angry talk radio? Who knows?

Has it? I point the finger at the rabid news media, who is blood thirsty for any story. Just look at the Octo-mom coverage.

[Heights2Bastrop]

OK, here

[TheNiche]

I had exactly the same repsonse--why is is overwhelmingly men? Niche's experience notwithstanding (and it was single act of violence) the only comparable I can think of a woman slaughtering her entire family was the woman in Clear Lake drowning her children. What drives a man, but not a woman, to come home, kill the whole family, then himself? I suspect in many cases despair or panic is a factor, but not necessarily mental illness per se.

Crimes of passion seem to be fairly common among both genders, and those seem to be largely influenced by culture. For instance, if an Italian-American wife in New Jersey catches her husband cheating on her, the odds of a violent end would seem to be significantly higher than her ancestor, a subject of the Roman Empire where concubines were just a part of life.

But where violence is premeditated, I would hypothesize that men are so much more likely to be the perpetrator for reasons that are primarily biological in scope, related to reproduction. A male's biological imperative is to successfully mate with as many partners as frequently as possible, however a woman's biological imperative is to mate selectively. The conflicting priorities are quantity and quality, respectively. The foulest most unattractive beast of a woman can obtain sex; different males have different standards, perhaps limiting her selection, but there is most assuredly someone with low standards that will boink her. The same kind of man, whether impaired by genetics, personality, or mental illness cannot necessarily find a counterpart; there are numerous other males that compete more effectively for sex. If he cannot mate, his sense of self-worth and worldly purpose may be largely negated. If the cause of impotence is biological, men obviously feel bad about it but their frustration is not focused, however if the cause of impotence is social then the man will resent others or himself. That's where it gets dangerous. That is where preoccupations with violent actions emerge. But poor mating prospects are only the root of this sort of problem. Similar behaviors can manifest from related stimulus. For instance, the male's attractiveness as a mate is in large part tied to his ability as a provider or a protector. A busted career, a failed investment, a violation to his person or property, or self-loathing resulting from a personality disorder--any of these events damage a male's perception of himself as a provider or protector, the key prerequisites for sexual appeal and mating. If a damaged male perceives that there is insufficient purpose for living and focuses blame on individuals or groups, that's a recipe for murder(s)/suicide.

Now for some disclaimers: 1) individuals are clearly very different, and there is obviously tremendous variation in how males value themselves; 2) the majority of people subjected to the damaging stimulus discussed respond negatively, frequently impacting their functionality--many of them will project some form of aggression on a person or persons who they feel is to blame for their condition (for instance by blaming them in a suicide note or perhaps just passively by completely undocumented violent/suicidal ideation)--however very few of them will resort to carrying out murder(s)/suicide; 3) the concurrent presence of one or more conditions described in the DSM-IV may complicate the hypothesis, possibly adding to or detracting from the intensity of the feelings or by adding unpredictable elements to them; and 4) special populations (gay, lesbian, transgender, S&M devotees, etc.) are exempted from this hypothesis--I have insufficient data to draw conclusions regarding these populations, besides which I'd rather not throw this thread off onto a gay tangent.

The hypothesis is by no means a perfectly valid or reliable one, nor is it exclusive to other explanatory theories. The human condition is too complicated to sort it all out with some general rules of thumb based on armchair psychology. However, if males are more likely than women to commit premeditated violent crimes such as murder(s)/suicide, this seems like a reasonable explanation that would appear to fit very well with anecdotal data points as well as with evolutionary biology.

I suspect in many cases despair or panic is a factor, but not necessarily mental illness per se.

Anybody who would carry out a premeditated murder(s)/suicide is severely ill. I don't want to open up the floor to a semantic argument about the philosophy underlying the identification or treatment of mental illness, but I would point out that the vast majority of the population could be defined as mentally ill if you go by a strict reading of diagnostic manuals. I know I would qualify, probably for several conditions. However, the important question is perhaps not so much a matter of whether a person qualifies; it is an issue of severity.

[Trae]

However, the mass murder/suicide trend has clearly exploded in popularity. What is causing this drastic increase in random mass shootings? Is it Hollywood? Is it computer games? Is it angry talk radio? Who knows?

Well, the Pittsburgh guy frequented right-wing sites and I'm sure listened to "angry talk radio" (especially with the comments he made after the shootings).

[TJones]

All these latest instances have been perpetrated by complete cowards. They have picked targets where they KNEW there would be no opposition to them. Look at the targets, all have been places where there would most likely be no "concealed license carriers"about. Why don't any of these losers EVER pick a gunshow or a NRA rally, or a shooting range to do their dirty work ? They prey on easy targets filled with people who have no chance of fighting back, and all these souless cowards know this. They are simply pathetic wastes of skin.

[TheNiche]

All these latest instances have been perpetrated by complete cowards. They have picked targets where they KNEW there would be no opposition to them. Look at the targets, all have been places where there would most likely be no "concealed license carriers"about. Why don't any of these losers EVER pick a gunshow or a NRA rally, or a shooting range to do their dirty work ? They prey on easy targets filled with people who have no chance of fighting back, and all these souless cowards know this. They are simply pathetic wastes of skin.

Perhaps responsible gun owners aren't as likely to inflict deep emotional wounds on people that would justify violent retribution.

...or maybe its that these people are mentally ill, not retarded. There is a difference.

[RedScare]

They appear to be shooting those with whom they have a vendetta, such as family members, former employers, etc. I don't think they were choosing the easiest targets. Additionally, at least 3 of the killers shot and killed police officers, who are generally presumed to be armed. I don't think they would be considered soft targets.