Standby Generator Installation

[flipper]

12KW peak trifuel is $3200 for that price you can get a permanent unit, but you cant get it wired. It seems you cant have your cake and eat it too on this front. I wish there were a fair priced electrician who would do the work. Anyone know of a FAIR electrician?

You obviously have a dollar amount in mind that you want to pay. What is it?

flipper

[Marksmu]

You obviously have a dollar amount in mind that you want to pay. What is it?

flipper

From what I can see for the materials - its about $800 on the high side for the transfer switch & 16 circuit breaker box with the power inlet. I would think $500 would be more than it should cost to install (it wont take a half a day), but its a price I would be willing to pay. Anything more than $1300 for everything I would consider getting shafted. I know what the materials cost, and they are quoting $3500-$6000 for the job.

The only other item needed is the umbilical cord, and I can make that myself.

[RedScare]

For anyone looking to keep a fridge, a TV, some fans, and a few lights on during the next "Ike", I would suggest you look into purchasing a small solar panel, charger, inverter, and deep cycle marine battery... the bigger the better. Total cost of all these items is ~$600. You could use your car batteries in a pinch and knock off ~$120 or so for the marine battery.

I ran the numbers, and if I am careful, I can live on 20-25Amp-hours/day in an emergency. A small solar panel on a good day will contribute 15Amp-hours to the battery... so therefore I am only draining the battery ~10Amp-hours per day of power.

If I start with a fully charged 100Amp-hour battery, in theory, under sunny conditions, that would last me roughly 7 days.

I was out of power for 4.5 days during Ike... I would have lost no food in the fridge, I would have had TV for a few hours a day to keep up with the local news, I would have had lights at night, and I would have had 2 fans keeping me cool day and night...

Considering how difficult it was to get gasoline during that time, I decided to look into solar for such an emergency.

I was looking into something along these lines myself. To get the numbers down, you can look into getting a mini-fridge or a refrigerated cooler. With a little planning, you find that there is not that much food that requires refrigeration that you have to have during a storm, so a smaller unit for essentials will work.

I still am trying to figure a way to get some AC without a genset, though. It need not be much. During Ike, I would get in the truck and drive around the block. A couple of minutes did the trick. A super small unit that would cool a very small room, or take the edge off the bedroom is all I need.

[flipper]

From what I can see for the materials - its about $800 on the high side for the transfer switch & 16 circuit breaker box with the power inlet. I would think $500 would be more than it should cost to install (it wont take a half a day), but its a price I would be willing to pay. Anything more than $1300 for everything I would consider getting shafted. I know what the materials cost, and they are quoting $3500-$6000 for the job.

The only other item needed is the umbilical cord, and I can make that myself.

I think you are hurting yourself by trying to break it out on a $/hour basis. You should know you can't do that in construction. If you think the quotes you are getting are too high, you should do it yourself and take your chances.

flipper

[memebag]

I still am trying to figure a way to get some AC without a genset, though. It need not be much. During Ike, I would get in the truck and drive around the block. A couple of minutes did the trick. A super small unit that would cool a very small room, or take the edge off the bedroom is all I need.

Maybe you could get the front half of a few used cars. They come with engines, batteries, A/C units and even radios. You could mount them on the walls of one room and feed them from a common gas tank.

[Mr. Chenevert]

I still am trying to figure a way to get some AC without a genset, though. It need not be much. During Ike, I would get in the truck and drive around the block. A couple of minutes did the trick. A super small unit that would cool a very small room, or take the edge off the bedroom is all I need.

Consider buying a swamp cooler... sure they dont work that great in humid climates, but they dont draw anymore power than most fans, and they are much more effective at "cooling" the air...

[musicman]

Consider buying a swamp cooler... sure they dont work that great in humid climates, but they dont draw anymore power than most fans, and they are much more effective at "cooling" the air...

adding moisture in the summer isn't going to cool you off. you don't get that evaporative effect like you do in dry climates.

[innerlooper]

Dryer circuit typically would be 30 amps, #10 wire. 80% would be 24 amps per leg, or 2880 vA each side.

The backfed 30 amp dryer breaker would trip if there was too much load. Breakers work in either direction.

One peril here is that if the dryer circuit was run using "10-2 with ground" Romex (quite common in amateur installations), and not the proper 10-3, the uninsulated ground wire could be carrying current (it does with most dryers on 10-2 circuits anyway but that is a whole other story).

BTW it didn't get over 85 after Ike. I remember there was just one somewhat sweaty night. Why this obsession with AC? Once every 20 years.

BTW, the circuit your dryer is attached to can only handle 3840 Watts.

120V*20Amp=2400W

2400W*2=4800W

You must not use more than 80% of the max though.... silly safety rules.

4800*0.8= 3840W

Only about a third of your proposed load.

Please dont burn your house down....

[Mr. Chenevert]

Dryer circuit typically would be 30 amps, #10 wire. 80% would be 24 amps per leg, or 2880 vA each side.

The backfed 30 amp dryer breaker would trip if there was too much load. Breakers work in either direction.

I was using the numbers he provided for his home for my calculations.

BTW, he states that he has 50Amp wiring to his dryer outlet.

50Amp*120V = 6000W*.8 = 4800W*2 = 9600W

So while the breaker will trip, the wires going to the dryer outlet are still being overloaded with his projected 10,000+W load.

Certainly, I would not expect flames, but my concern is still valid.

Do it right, or don't do it.

[innerlooper]

(Dryer on a 50 amp breaker is wrong. Even with the right sized wires.)

But if the breaker trips then there would not be a load any more, only voltage on the wires. Like service drop. Problem is no overcurrent protection for the backfed wires themselves.

I was using the numbers he provided for his home for my calculations.

BTW, he states that he has 50Amp wiring to his dryer outlet.

50Amp*120V = 6000W*.8 = 4800W*2 = 9600W

So while the breaker will trip, the wires going to the dryer outlet are still being overloaded with his projected 10,000+W load.

Certainly, I would not expect flames, but my concern is still valid.

Do it right, or don't do it.

[Marksmu]

I think you are hurting yourself by trying to break it out on a $/hour basis. You should know you can't do that in construction. If you think the quotes you are getting are too high, you should do it yourself and take your chances.

flipper

I do know that nobody really charges by the hour in construction, but when the job is SO straight forward, there is not any reason that you should have to be ripped off. Every single job is pretty much paid by the hour, its very difficult to remove that mindset....I think to myself....I basically get paid $40/hr basically, and this guy just showed up, worked for 3 hours or so, and charged me over $1000 just for labor....in that time I would have made $120, and he made 10 times what I do and its unlikely he is servicing anywhere near the same kind of student debt that I am from 8 addittional years of school. Not to mention while I was in college/grad school he was probably working as an apprentice, getting paid to learn...for some reason I just cant shake that feeling of being ripped off like that.

[RedScare]

I do know that nobody really charges by the hour in construction, but when the job is SO straight forward, there is not any reason that you should have to be ripped off. Every single job is pretty much paid by the hour, its very difficult to remove that mindset....I think to myself....I basically get paid $40/hr basically, and this guy just showed up, worked for 3 hours or so, and charged me over $1000 just for labor....in that time I would have made $120, and he made 10 times what I do and its unlikely he is servicing anywhere near the same kind of student debt that I am from 8 addittional years of school. Not to mention while I was in college/grad school he was probably working as an apprentice, getting paid to learn...for some reason I just cant shake that feeling of being ripped off like that.

If you had ever been self-employed, and knew what was involved in running a business, such as advertising, paying helpers, taxes, tools, vehicles and fuel and insurance, you probably would not be looking at these bids on a strictly per hour basis. While $4500-6000 is ridiculous, $500 is equally ridiculous on the low end.

You get what you pay for. If hiring an already employed electrician to do a side job where you bear all of the risk works for you, then you might find someone to do it for a thousand bucks or so. But, remember that they are likely going to have to do a hot job, since disconnecting the service from Centerpoint would require calling them back out to inspect the work and to reconnect, which requires a permit, so to save time and money, they do it hot. I wouldn't play with a hot feed for $500.

[flipper]

I do know that nobody really charges by the hour in construction, but when the job is SO straight forward, there is not any reason that you should have to be ripped off. Every single job is pretty much paid by the hour, its very difficult to remove that mindset....I think to myself....I basically get paid $40/hr basically, and this guy just showed up, worked for 3 hours or so, and charged me over $1000 just for labor....in that time I would have made $120, and he made 10 times what I do and its unlikely he is servicing anywhere near the same kind of student debt that I am from 8 addittional years of school. Not to mention while I was in college/grad school he was probably working as an apprentice, getting paid to learn...for some reason I just cant shake that feeling of being ripped off like that.

So if you know that nobody really charges by the hour why do you say in the next sentence that "every single job is pretty much paid by the hour". Until you stop comparing your worth to what you pay for construction labor you will be at a stand still.

flipper

[cgallagher]

Most electrical service companies will charge $125/hr for a 2 man crew. So if you've figured $1000 in labor, the electician has probably figured 8 hours of labor. This may be an indication that you have underestimated the scope of work that is involved in this project.

I can tell you from experience, that the hookup of a generator is more than a half day job. If you are truely being overcharged, then speak to a couple more companies like Fort Bend, or Houston Empire electric. If you get a lower quote then you may be correct.

Just the positioning of the generator is a half day job. They are very large and very heavy and sometimes require a crane or fork lift.

Once everything is positioned and hooked up, the generator has to be tuned. The generator installation companies have people on staff that are licenced and trained by the generator manufacturer. The tune job takes between 1-4 hours, and must be done to insure that the engine has a long life.

Also, the natural gas engine requires regular maintenance like oil changes, coolant changes, belts, filters, etc... So be prepared for this.

Quick story: I had a generator installed for a home I was building. The generator company quoted all these fees to install gas, electrical, concrete pad, startup, ect.. . I decided that I would have my electrician do the hookup, my plumber run the gas, my concrete guy do pad . They were at the job anyway, so I built it into the construction contract. So after everything was up and running and Centerpoint had approved the backfeed check. The city of houston electrical inspector pointed out that the generator has to be 5' from the wall of a building. I was at 3' which was the manufacture's spec. It's a city of Houston code, and there is no obvious litterature that is easily available for reference. After alot of arguing, I had to shell out additional money to extend the concrete, plumbing and electrical - a $600 hit.

Moral of the story - you're never as smart as you think you are, no matter how smart you are.

I will also say that you should never undervalue the education that an electrician or plumber now has to go through to become licenced. There is 2 years of apprenceship, state tests, and continueing education. Most stop at the journeyman license, because the master's is too difficult to achieve.

[Marksmu]

Most electrical service companies will charge $125/hr for a 2 man crew. So if you've figured $1000 in labor, the electician has probably figured 8 hours of labor. This may be an indication that you have underestimated the scope of work that is involved in this project.

I can tell you from experience, that the hookup of a generator is more than a half day job. If you are truely being overcharged, then speak to a couple more companies like Fort Bend, or Houston Empire electric. If you get a lower quote then you may be correct.

Just the positioning of the generator is a half day job. They are very large and very heavy and sometimes require a crane or fork lift.

Once everything is positioned and hooked up, the generator has to be tuned. The generator installation companies have people on staff that are licenced and trained by the generator manufacturer. The tune job takes between 1-4 hours, and must be done to insure that the engine has a long life.

Also, the natural gas engine requires regular maintenance like oil changes, coolant changes, belts, filters, etc... So be prepared for this.

Quick story: I had a generator installed for a home I was building. The generator company quoted all these fees to install gas, electrical, concrete pad, startup, ect.. . I decided that I would have my electrician do the hookup, my plumber run the gas, my concrete guy do pad . They were at the job anyway, so I built it into the construction contract. So after everything was up and running and Centerpoint had approved the backfeed check. The city of houston electrical inspector pointed out that the generator has to be 5' from the wall of a building. I was at 3' which was the manufacture's spec. It's a city of Houston code, and there is no obvious litterature that is easily available for reference. After alot of arguing, I had to shell out additional money to extend the concrete, plumbing and electrical - a $600 hit.

Moral of the story - you're never as smart as you think you are, no matter how smart you are.

I will also say that you should never undervalue the education that an electrician or plumber now has to go through to become licenced. There is 2 years of apprenceship, state tests, and continueing education. Most stop at the journeyman license, because the master's is too difficult to achieve.

Im not disagreeing, but I only want a switch, and a 16breaker panel put in...I am buying a portable natural gas generator that I intend to plug in with a 4way nema plug...I dont need a pad or any plumbing, just the panel work...which should not take an electrician any more than a couple hours to do...he cuts the power to the main, installs the 3 way in front of the other breaker box, and wires the new one back to the old, and bada bing, he is done. Easy as cake, especially since EVERYTHING is brand new, and clearly labeled...I even have a diagram in the box telling how many outlets are on each breaker, and I have hand written in whats plugged into each.

[musicman]

sounds like you can handle it. get back to us bada bing, when you're done.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Don't forget most electricians have a four hour minimum. None the less the install sounds very high, perhaps, the electrician is not fully understanding what it is you want done. He could be thinking you are wanting something more complex done. Or it could possibly be he's trying to avoid the work because of his current load, and doesn't want to flatly turn you down, so he threw out a price he figured you would turn down and if you wanted it that bad he'd be willing to do it. You never know, it's done every day in all lines of work, I know I do it when it's something I'd rather not do, but if they are willing to pay enough, anything is possible.

[Neostead]

Hello Gentlemen,

I had the same experience with what I too thought was unreasonable pricing. I had 4 separate companies come out and give me a bid. The quotes were all over the map. But what was common with them all was the installation costs. One company was pricing the gas line at $45/ft, and the electrical at $35/ft. I can only assume that he was contracting this out and was also having to pay these costs - hence he was passing it on to me. Out of curiosity I went to Lowes to see what the price of 1" gas pipe was, and found it to be roughly $1.80/ft. to $2.40/ft. My solution? I decided to become an Authorized Guardian Dealer and start my own company. In fact, I am heading to AZ this week for dealer certification, and the new website is almost complete. I have close family friends who are licensed electricians and plumbers, and... who owe me some huge favors. So... stay tuned. I hope to be bringing homeowners a trusted AND reasonably-priced alternative to what we have all seemed to have experienced.

By the way... my company is a (premeir Houston) online marketing firm. My specialty is placing my client's websites at the top of Google for their key search terms. I have made a handsome living, and made my clients millions of dollars (literally!) as a result of these skills for the past 5 years. So you will see this new company soon when searching for residentail standby generators. :-)

[Marksmu]

Hello Gentlemen,

I had the same experience with what I too thought was unreasonable pricing. I had 4 separate companies come out and give me a bid. The quotes were all over the map. But what was common with them all was the installation costs. One company was pricing the gas line at $45/ft, and the electrical at $35/ft. I can only assume that he was contracting this out and was also having to pay these costs - hence he was passing it on to me. Out of curiosity I went to Lowes to see what the price of 1" gas pipe was, and found it to be roughly $1.80/ft. to $2.40/ft. My solution? I decided to become an Authorized Guardian Dealer and start my own company. In fact, I am heading to AZ this week for dealer certification, and the new website is almost complete. I have close family friends who are licensed electricians and plumbers, and... who owe me some huge favors. So... stay tuned. I hope to be bringing homeowners a trusted AND reasonably-priced alternative to what we have all seemed to have experienced.

By the way... my company is a (premeir Houston) online marketing firm. My specialty is placing my client's websites at the top of Google for their key search terms. I have made a handsome living, and made my clients millions of dollars (literally!) as a result of these skills for the past 5 years. So you will see this new company soon when searching for residentail standby generators. :-)

Excellent News. You have solved my problem! - You can do my house for cost of materials only, and I will allow you to use it in your marketing. I'll even throw a nice quote or two your way.

[Scharpe St Guy]

Depending upon the cost I would be interested in this as well, I will second the thoughts of Marksmu on the rates that trades are trying to charge.

Please keep us posted Neostead on your progress and HAIF "Preferred" pricing,

Scharpe St Guy

Hello Gentlemen,

I had the same experience with what I too thought was unreasonable pricing. I had 4 separate companies come out and give me a bid. The quotes were all over the map. But what was common with them all was the installation costs. One company was pricing the gas line at $45/ft, and the electrical at $35/ft. I can only assume that he was contracting this out and was also having to pay these costs - hence he was passing it on to me. Out of curiosity I went to Lowes to see what the price of 1" gas pipe was, and found it to be roughly $1.80/ft. to $2.40/ft. My solution? I decided to become an Authorized Guardian Dealer and start my own company. In fact, I am heading to AZ this week for dealer certification, and the new website is almost complete. I have close family friends who are licensed electricians and plumbers, and... who owe me some huge favors. So... stay tuned. I hope to be bringing homeowners a trusted AND reasonably-priced alternative to what we have all seemed to have experienced.

By the way... my company is a (premeir Houston) online marketing firm. My specialty is placing my client's websites at the top of Google for their key search terms. I have made a handsome living, and made my clients millions of dollars (literally!) as a result of these skills for the past 5 years. So you will see this new company soon when searching for residentail standby generators. :-)