Tolls

[Mr. B]

Ha not long ago during the election I got blasted because I spoke out about people putting Ed Emmitt back in office.

Well guess what ole Ed is back in and he and his cronies are already making up for lost time.

Boom raised the tolls on the West Park and Boom raising the tolls on the Main Beltway lanes.

Not enough money. My ass they are just a bunch of money hungry crooks.

Again we can't even vote on the man and he affects all of us out here which is wrong.

Ok go ahead and flame again.

[westguy76]

Well there is a portion that was built by Harris County and a Portion that was built by Fort Bend County. Do these 2 different authorities not control the stretches that fall within their jurisdiction?

[Mr. B]

To be fair I would suspect the tolls would have been raised regardless of who was in office but Ed sure ain't doing anything to try to keep them down.

Curious to see if the media picks up on it again like a year or so ago when they tried to put a big increase on the westpark and had to recall the increase over so much pressure.

New tactic is to do it in small increments and no one will notice.

[westguy76]

They had a segment about it on the news last night. Did anyone watch it. I missed it.

[TheNiche]

To be fair I would suspect the tolls would have been raised regardless of who was in office but Ed sure ain't doing anything to try to keep them down.

Curious to see if the media picks up on it again like a year or so ago when they tried to put a big increase on the westpark and had to recall the increase over so much pressure.

New tactic is to do it in small increments and no one will notice.

The Westpark and Katy toll roads were developed specifically with congestion pricing in mind. It was a plan that had been made public for years prior to them opening up and I wish that they had stuck with it from the very beginning. Their only mistake was not doing what they are right now sooner, raising tolls in small increments more frequently.

If not for the tolls, the funding would've had to have been provided by HCTRA, Harris County, or other local jurisdictions--or not at all. Federal and state governments surely weren't going to pony up any more than they already were. With that in mind, you should be thankful that there are any toll roads at all by way of which to relieve congestion from the main lanes. And if you're still paying for use of the toll roads then obviously they're worth it to you.

If you or others still object to the pricing model, perhaps you shouldn't have structured your life around that bit of infrastructure. If you don't like it, move.

----------

Btw, I think it was you who had previously argued that the Katy Freeway was more congested than it used to be upon completion. I drove it at 5PM yesterday and made better time than I used to when I used to work out there. So I reject that assertion, whether it was yours or someone else's.

[Mr. B]

Well it was me who posted the last time and I will still tell you again I don't like it, with regard to the tolls constantly being increased and as for me moving you can forget that option again as well. I use the roads every day as I have no options in order to get little one to school, work, etc on time.

There is no reason to raise the tolls and its just a money grab. Each portion of the roads to be built in the future should be built based on the funding they can borrow against the amount of money's to be made from the tolls raised from the use of those roads just like the first toll roads that were built in Houston. They are borrowing against current moneys made but never with a plan to cease or put the money back. People need to understand this the tolls will never come off. That is coming straight from the toll authority some years back at a meeting out here in Katy during the initial construction of I-10. They can pay the roads off and the tolls will still not come off

I will say though that I-10 in the afternoons is much better and I take that routing home in the evenings if at all possible, but the mornings still suck. I took I-10 to work thursday morning at 7:30 and it took 35 minutes to get from Fry to on ramp of Beltway, no wrecks (one broken down car on the side) or anything just pure slow moving and at some points no moving congestion.

Actually since I-10 opened back up full force the Westpark traffic has decreased considerably so where is your reasoning that the tolls should go up to ease the traffic flow on the Westpark ? There was no increase when the traffic was very heavy but now that the traffic is about half what it was on the Westpark the tolls are increasing seems like reverse logic you got there. Could it be they aren't making the money they were and now have to raise the tolls to keep things status quo or should I say again a money grab.

[TheNiche]

Well it was me who posted the last time and I will still tell you again I don't like it, with regard to the tolls constantly being increased and as for me moving you can forget that option again as well. I use the roads every day as I have no options in order to get little one to school, work, etc on time.

This is categorically false. Taking the variables of money and time into account, you take the path of least resistance. But you do have options. If the Westpark and Katy toll facilities weren't there, you could still make your trip; it's just that it would take much longer--even longer than it would take right now to use your alternate routes because all the other traffic that uses the toll facilities would instead be forced to use those alternate routes.

The funding wasn't available from any agency that could've built them for free, so the alternatives were a toll facility or no toll facility. You should be grateful that you have it.

And if you don't like the situation, MOVE dammit. It too is a choice; don't tell me it isn't because that is a lie.

There is no reason to raise the tolls and its just a money grab. Each portion of the roads to be built in the future should be built based on the funding they can borrow against the amount of money's to be made from the tolls raised from the use of those roads just like the first toll roads that were built in Houston. They are borrowing against current moneys made but never with a plan to cease or put the money back. People need to understand this the tolls will never come off. That is coming straight from the toll authority some years back at a meeting out here in Katy during the initial construction of I-10. They can pay the roads off and the tolls will still not come off

There are three good reasons to raise tolls. One is to meet the proforma on finances so that the HCTRA's revenues come in below the projections from which they've budgeted other outlays. Fiscal solvency is a good and very necessary thing for HCTRA. Another is to reach a level of revenue at which facility expansion makes sense and can be externally financed. A third (actually most compelling reason) is congestion pricing, a mechanism which you evidently endorse by your actions. If you aren't familiar with how it works or how it is the best thing ever, just Google around. There's lots of good material about it.

You're correct that these roads will never stop being tolled. The facilities have an ongoing maintenance budget that is surprisingly high. And as they age with time, they require an increasing intensity and number of repairs. Nearby non-toll facilities are often also paid for by HCTRA to make access easier to toll facilities if such projects will induce sufficient additional toll revenue to pay for them, but those require up-front capital outlays. And realistically, it's also likely that by the time that the original road bonds are paid off, demand and revenue will justify a total reconstruction effort. And of course, all this is reflected in the HCTRA financials, which is publicly available for your review.

As for not coming up with a plan to put the money back, their plans must change from time to time to accommodate changing patterns of demand as well as facilities being funded (supplied) by other entities. Forecasting and budgeting for the specific needs of 2019 in 2009 would be pretty stupid. One thing is very clear: HCTRA is not a for-profit entity, it's funds cannot be placed in the Harris County general fund, and it must utilize those funds to further its mission, which is to provide effective transportation to residents of Harris County. It isn't as though the money disappears.

Actually since I-10 opened back up full force the Westpark traffic has decreased considerably so where is your reasoning that the tolls should go up to ease the traffic flow on the Westpark ? There was no increase when the traffic was very heavy but now that the traffic is about half what it was on the Westpark the tolls are increasing seems like reverse logic you got there. Could it be they aren't making the money they were and now have to raise the tolls to keep things status quo or should I say again a money grab.

I can't speak to that because I have only ever used the Westpark when it was free because of the hurricane. Traffic volume as you described it is a different concept from traffic congestion, and I'm just not familiar with how congested it is. The aim of congestion pricing is to eliminate almost all congestion. If the current pricing is sufficient to do that, then increasing the toll rate does not appear to make sense.

However, seeing as how they had waited so long and then backed off on the level of the first toll rate increase, this follow-up may be necessary to get them to a place where they should've been a long time ago.

[Mr. B]

I own my home do you own yours ?????

Suggest you go back and reread the post from last time.

[liammclaren]

If you or others still object to the pricing model, perhaps you shouldn't have structured your life around that bit of infrastructure. If you don't like it, move.

But what happens when every road is a toll road? In the future every road will be a toll road, even roads that were paid for 50 years ago. Why? Because they're cash cows, plain and simple.

[20thStDad]

But what happens when every road is a toll road? In the future every road will be a toll road, even roads that were paid for 50 years ago. Why? Because they're cash cows, plain and simple.

My taxes better go way the hell down if they switch all roads to pay-per-use. Further, I am willing to bet people stop living way out in BFE unless they work there. Who knows, maybe your toll projection is what will kill the suburb. But that's another thread I guess...

[liammclaren]

Further, I am willing to bet people stop living way out in BFE unless they work there. Who knows, maybe your toll projection is what will kill the suburb. But that's another thread I guess...

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that.

[N Judah]

I think that true congestion pricing means there should not be a price floor.

Edited January 20, 2009 by N Judah

[sevenmeadows]

I prefer the congestion pricing. I remember how ecstatic I was when the free hurricane tolls ended. The increase in traffic during that period proved how bad things would be if the roads weren't tolled.

In fact, I think the tolls need to be higher because there are still traffic problems during morning rush hour. And by the way, no one is forced to use the tollways. If someone doesn't want to pay tolls, they are perfectly free to take alternate (free) routes. That is exactly how congestion pricing helps alleviate traffic problems.

[cla]

I prefer the congestion pricing. I remember how ecstatic I was when the free hurricane tolls ended. The increase in traffic during that period proved how bad things would be if the roads weren't tolled.

In fact, I think the tolls need to be higher because there are still traffic problems during morning rush hour. And by the way, no one is forced to use the tollways. If someone doesn't want to pay tolls, they are perfectly free to take alternate (free) routes. That is exactly how congestion pricing helps alleviate traffic problems.

If you live near 1093 there is no nearby "free" highway that runs east-west. So you would be forced to add a considerable amount of time to your route and the additional traffic on the alternate (free) routes would make it worse for those who already use those routes.

And when they proposed the congestion pricing, I believe that they were talking about running it from 4am or 5am to 9am for morning traffic.

[Mr. B]

Hmm lets see I moved here because my job was here and then it was gone so now I work in another place clear on the other side of Houston.

I own my home but I should sell it and get in debt to move someplace closer to the job I have now which might not last forever. I should tell my 3 year old you need to get up at 4 AM instead of 5 AM to get ready for your school at 8 AM so we can drop you off earlier someplace in order to take I-10 because some people who don't live out here and don't like the suburbunites think its perfectly ok for some people to raise the tolls on the roads we use daily to save time even though there is no reason to be raising the tolls except to pay for their favorite politicians pork projects.

I-10 opens up and traffic goes down on Westpark making all who use it happy, but wait; less traffic, less money coming in. We gotta raise them tolls due to congestion but only thing is the congestion was gone before the tolls were increased. That makes a lot of sense.

Man dealing with some rocket scientist here with responses like Move, Use I-10, Get up earlier, the tolls pay for our roads, tolls are good kill suburbans/suburbans bad.

[RedScare]

Hmm lets see I moved here because my job was here and then it was gone so now I work in another place clear on the other side of Houston.

I own my home but I should sell it and get in debt to move someplace closer to the job I have now which might not last forever. I should tell my 3 year old you need to get up at 4 AM instead of 5 AM to get ready for your school at 8 AM so we can drop you off earlier someplace in order to take I-10 because some people who don't live out here and don't like the suburbunites think its perfectly ok for some people to raise the tolls on the roads we use daily to save time even though there is no reason to be raising the tolls except to pay for their favorite politicians pork projects.

I-10 opens up and traffic goes down on Westpark making all who use it happy, but wait; less traffic, less money coming in. We gotta raise them tolls due to congestion but only thing is the congestion was gone before the tolls were increased. That makes a lot of sense.

Man dealing with some rocket scientist here with responses like Move, Use I-10, Get up earlier, the tolls pay for our roads, tolls are good kill suburbans/suburbans bad.

It's not rocket science. There is no incentive for the HCTRA to lower tolls because one non-resident does not like them, yet STILL PAYS THEM. Your insistence on a lower toll, if turned around, is a demand that Harris County residents pay higher taxes to subsidize your lifestyle choices. By voting for Ed Emmit, we have effectively rejected your demand that we subsidize your transportation. Sorry if that upsets you, but we pay taxes to improve OUR lifestyles, not that of non-residents.

[TheNiche]

I own my home do you own yours ?????

Suggest you go back and reread the post from last time.

Yes, and I'm about to sell it.

If toll roads make you so miserable, I suggest you follow common sense and do the same.

Hmm lets see I moved here because my job was here and then it was gone so now I work in another place clear on the other side of Houston.

I own my home but I should sell it and get in debt to move someplace closer to the job I have now which might not last forever. I should tell my 3 year old you need to get up at 4 AM instead of 5 AM to get ready for your school at 8 AM so we can drop you off earlier someplace in order to take I-10 because some people who don't live out here and don't like the suburbunites think its perfectly ok for some people to raise the tolls on the roads we use daily to save time even though there is no reason to be raising the tolls except to pay for their favorite politicians pork projects.

I-10 opens up and traffic goes down on Westpark making all who use it happy, but wait; less traffic, less money coming in. We gotta raise them tolls due to congestion but only thing is the congestion was gone before the tolls were increased. That makes a lot of sense.

Man dealing with some rocket scientist here with responses like Move, Use I-10, Get up earlier, the tolls pay for our roads, tolls are good kill suburbans/suburbans bad.

That would be a good place to move, then. There are plenty of inexpensive options available in the east or northeast sides of the metro area. You may be able to get a better house for the money, and closer to your kids' school and future schools, and near MUCH less congested and free highways. And if you aren't in debt for the house you already own, then I really don't understand why you're so fearful of being in debt for a different house that you own...especially when you'd be saving so much money on gas, wear and tear on you car, depreciation of your car, and on the tolls on top of all that. Then you also get to vote for Harris County officials and be taken seriously by your politicians.

There is not a downside.

Edited January 22, 2009 by TheNiche

[TheNiche]

But what happens when every road is a toll road?

That'd be awesome. Society needs roads and has to pay for them somehow, but allocating money from all different levels of government is incredibly inefficient and doesn't work in our favor. For instance, Texas gets screwed out of a lot of Federal infrastructure money because the money is allocated to where people are and not to where they will be; Michigan doesn't need much as much new road capacity as us because its population is declining, but don't tell their congressmen that. The bicameral nature of the legislature also doesn't help us any, whereas we get two senators and N. Dakota gets two senators. The same kinds of processes seem to play out within the State.

Also, congestion pricing encourages employers to implement flex hours and telecommuting options for employees. The net result is less congestion (as implied by the name). I like that too.

In the future every road will be a toll road, even roads that were paid for 50 years ago. Why? Because they're cash cows, plain and simple.

Depends on how it is set up. If we're going to continue following the HCTRA model, toll road authorities would be prohibited from transferring cash into the general fund of their sponsor counties. It all has to go back into expansion or maintenance of the toll road infrastructure. If there is a surplus of funds, we get more infrastructure. If there is a surplus of infrastructure, congestion pricing adjusts downward.

[TheNiche]

My taxes better go way the hell down if they switch all roads to pay-per-use. Further, I am willing to bet people stop living way out in BFE unless they work there. Who knows, maybe your toll projection is what will kill the suburb. But that's another thread I guess...

Given the extent to which people value their time and also the flex hour and telecommuting trend, I'd bet that a lower-congestion tolled environment actually ends up encouraging more extreme low-density exurban and rural arrangements. It could even take the wind out of urbanism.

[TheNiche]

If you live near 1093 there is no nearby "free" highway that runs east-west. So you would be forced to add a considerable amount of time to your route and the additional traffic on the alternate (free) routes would make it worse for those who already use those routes.

1093 is a highway. It isn't a limited-access grade-separated highway, but you can go east and west on it. Not very fast, but I'll bet that even the traffic along that route got better after the toll road drew so many users off of 1093.

Had Westpark not been financed as a toll road, it would not exist today. All the traffic it carries would be on roads that are still free, such as 1093. And that would've done nobody any good.

[N Judah]

And when they proposed the congestion pricing, I believe that they were talking about running it from 4am or 5am to 9am for morning traffic.

[TheNiche]

It's not "congestion pricing" it's "we want to make as much money as we can" pricing. There is a difference.

Where do you think that money is going?

[N Judah]

Where do you think that money is going?

It's like a dividend. They put it right back into the pockets of the taxpayers.

Just kidding, we all know it's going to fund the Brown Line.

Edited January 22, 2009 by N Judah

[crunchtastic]

If new tolls were to fund real infrastructure improvements and/or increase mass transit ridership, I'm all for them. Especially inside the loop where the main surface streets are barely driveable in places. Shepherd, Kirby, etc. Or where the congestion is so bad near the loop it takes 20 minutes to get through a light in the galleria area.

I've been intrigued by the English model I heard was adopted for London (City)--where you're tolled for use based on time of day and size of vehicle in the most congested areas. Does anyone know if that program is still in place? If Susie Southhampton wants to drive her H2 around in clogged lanes designed for passenger cars, that's great--she just gets to pay more than me for lightweight 4 cylinder. Not unlike truckers being charged by axel on their registrations.

Edited January 22, 2009 by crunchtastic

[TheNiche]

It's like a dividend. They put it right back into the pockets of the taxpayers.

Just kidding, we all know it's going to fund the Brown Line.

No, seriously. Where do you think the money is going? You've asserted that the pricing scheme is a cash cow. Whose cash cow is it?

[N Judah]

I don't really care...I'm more concerned with helping "cla" understand why Houston's implementation of so-called "congestion pricing" somehow means that s/he gets to pay full price on an uncongested road.

Edited January 22, 2009 by N Judah

[sevenmeadows]

If you live near 1093 there is no nearby "free" highway that runs east-west. So you would be forced to add a considerable amount of time to your route and the additional traffic on the alternate (free) routes would make it worse for those who already use those routes.

Until not very long ago, there was no Westpark Tollway and people who lived near 1093 somehow survived.

If you want the convenience, you pay for it. If you don't want to pay a toll, then you accept the inconvenience.

I don't get a thrill out paying tolls, but without them the Westpark Tollway becomes so clogged with traffic it fails its purpose--to provide a more efficient roadway for those willing to pay for the convenience.

[sevfiv]

If new tolls were to fund real infrastructure improvements and/or increase mass transit ridership, I'm all for them. Especially inside the loop where the main surface streets are barely driveable in places. Shepherd, Kirby, etc. Or where the congestion is so bad near the loop it takes 20 minutes to get through a light in the galleria area.

I've been intrigued by the English model I heard was adopted for London (City)--where you're tolled for use based on time of day and size of vehicle in the most congested areas. Does anyone know if that program is still in place? If Susie Southhampton wants to drive her H2 around in clogged lanes designed for passenger cars, that's great--she just gets to pay more than me for lightweight 4 cylinder. Not unlike truckers being charged by axel on their registrations.

The congestion charge can be pricey (8 GBP ~ $11), but I think it's an interesting idea in theory..

"If you drive in central London between 7.00 am and 6.00 pm, Monday to Friday (excluding public holidays) you will have to pay the

[CandW]

Stop the whining...accept the fact that you sometimes have to pay to play. I agree the timing of the increase was a bit off, lol. But at the same time it was already discussed, implemented, then paused and now it's back on. Let it go, pay to play or do like most of the rest of us and sit in traffic on I-10. For the record, I office in the Galleria area and live near Katy Mills. It takes me on average 30 to 35 minutes to get there on I-10 after I drop my kiddo off at school. That puts me on the road at around 7:15 or 7:30. The traffic is not all that bad if you go with the ebb and flow, i.e. off the freeway and back on...it works. Move on!

[FalconRanch1]

Stop the whining...accept the fact that you sometimes have to pay to play. I agree the timing of the increase was a bit off, lol. But at the same time it was already discussed, implemented, then paused and now it's back on. Let it go, pay to play or do like most of the rest of us and sit in traffic on I-10. For the record, I office in the Galleria area and live near Katy Mills. It takes me on average 30 to 35 minutes to get there on I-10 after I drop my kiddo off at school. That puts me on the road at around 7:15 or 7:30. The traffic is not all that bad if you go with the ebb and flow, i.e. off the freeway and back on...it works. Move on!

So by that do you mean go on the freeway and then get off on the exit and go back on to the freeway and repeat..?