Why some people hate the suburbs

[LTAWACS]

TheNiche:

Thanks for acknowledging my agreement with you. I'm just short of ecstatic.

As to your Method/Madness explanation, yes, you spelled out the how the entire "white flight" phenomenon evolves - continuously. (In admirable detail)

Given the thesis of my post, I wonder why, though. I'm seeking a viable distinction between the suburbs and the exurbs; my assertion is that however they evolved, these non-suburban "buffers" (in my view) offer an opportunity to draw the geographical distinction people have grappled with for ten pages now. I tend to read your posts; your argumentative nature gets my attention and respect, in general. Perhaps I'm surprised you missed my point - if you didn't, you chose not to meaningfully entertain the notion. That's OK-your perogative.

Finally, you offered a bouquet to those who choose to live the exurban life. I've stated almost the same thing in other posts. There are some excellent reasons for some to live the exurban life (schools, econ, kidspace). I try to make that clear, but since you felt compelled to "celebrate the individuality, etc"....ditto. (yawn). Your pollution assertion was a bit ironic, given the jammed freeways delivering the exurbanites contributes heavily to the problem, but not especially relevant point taken.

My post was made IN RESPONSE to numerous vehement assertions that the five (5) Houston suburbs I've lived in (3 inside the loop, 2 just outside) and many others somehow lost their status as suburbs because, in short, they wound up "compacted" (your term) by the "messy" (my term) growth that followed. I have run a business in the "buffer" areas for decades. Why? It's cheap! So even ugly buffers offer benefits to my beloved H-town.

Anyway, I would have enjoyed a responsive post...not required, though. Your prerogative.

Houston suburbs are suburbs. Others disagree. I find their evidence unpersuasive, and offered a model. I think it has merit.

"There's a lot in there that I disagree with or I think is overstated, but I'm I'm glad you essentially agree with my argument..." ROTFLMAO ! I smell a new signature line for InTheLoop...making people glad.

Gee whiz.2

lol

[Jeebus]

LEARN TO USE QUOTES PROPERLY.

[TexasVines]

LEARN TO USE QUOTES PROPERLY.

he can't he went to UHD not UH

[TheNiche]

Apples and oranges are different kinds of the same thing: Fruits.

Exactly. And "urban" and "suburban" are different kinds of the same thing: Cities.

They can be compared. In fact, to the extent that "urban" and "suburban" are mutually exclusive concepts, the very definition of those concepts must render a descriptive comparison.

It is NOT a suburb. It is Houston.

By taking such an inflexible stance, you indicate that political boundaries are the distinction according to which you believe that suburbs are defined. You can reference numerous above posts that discuss the pitfalls of such a definition. If you want to address those counterpoints, you are welcome. But just putting a claim out there over and over isn't productive. Here, let me show you:

Niche makes claim: "The sky is purple with neon green polka dots." [LTAWACS refutes claim, posts photo, relays personal experience, provides discussion of chemical content of atmosphere, provides light frequencies relating to the color spectrum.] Niche replies: "The sky is purple with neon green polka dots."

^Is that a productive line of argument? No.

Houston is the primary city. Now you are talking about commuter belts.

A municipality does not a city make.

[TheNiche]

TheNiche:

Thanks for acknowledging my agreement with you. I'm just short of ecstatic.

As to your Method/Madness explanation, yes, you spelled out the how the entire "white flight" phenomenon evolves - continuously. (In admirable detail)

Given the thesis of my post, I wonder why, though. I'm seeking a viable distinction between the suburbs and the exurbs; my assertion is that however they evolved, these non-suburban "buffers" (in my view) offer an opportunity to draw the geographical distinction people have grappled with for ten pages now. I tend to read your posts; your argumentative nature gets my attention and respect, in general. Perhaps I'm surprised you missed my point - if you didn't, you chose not to meaningfully entertain the notion. That's OK-your perogative.

Finally, you offered a bouquet to those who choose to live the exurban life. I've stated almost the same thing in other posts. There are some excellent reasons for some to live the exurban life (schools, econ, kidspace). I try to make that clear, but since you felt compelled to "celebrate the individuality, etc"....ditto. (yawn). Your pollution assertion was a bit ironic, given the jammed freeways delivering the exurbanites contributes heavily to the problem, but not especially relevant point taken.

I know that this is a tangent, and if a moderator would break out the part of InTheLoop's post that mentioned pollution into a different thread, that might be best.

You might notice if you review a map of Houston's freeways, that they become much wider and closer together as they near the urban core. In comparison, they are typically narrower, carry less traffic volume, become less congested, and are further from one another in suburban and especially exurban areas. Whether you find it ironic that freeways support an exurban population or not really is besides the point that exurbs and most suburbs are less subject to pollution than are urban areas.

Houston's suburbs actually have really clean air. Coastal winds disperse pollution pretty quickly on most days. About the worst kind of suburban pollution occurs on still days when there's a lot of construction work (especially earth work) being done and the air becomes laden with dust. Urban areas, by comparison, have much more concentrated commercial and industrial facilities and infrastructure which are grandfathered under old permits which are far less stringent than modern regulations as would apply to new facilities in suburban or even totally isolated rural areas. Urban areas have a lot denser concentrations (and toxicity to humans is all about dose, btw) of toxic waste sites and active pollution sources, just by virtue of the fact that they've been subject to human use for longer periods of time and during eras of environmental ignorance. And if you doubt me at all, just start perusing the EPA's online Enviromapper program. It's really fascinating.

[LTAWACS]

LEARN TO USE QUOTES PROPERLY.

Jeebus.... I did...

he can't he went to UHD not UH

Uhm.. yeah... because I didn't learn punctuation and grammar when I was in 2nd grade.

he can't he went to UHD not UH

FYI... I was taught this when I was in grammar school. NOT the university level.

[LTAWACS]

You know from time to time to I go out to have a few drinks at my cousin's wine bar. Other times I hang out at home. But tonight I've never puke up a little in my mouth after reading a couple of posts. Namely, I want to point out Jeebus and TexasVines posts for they really do ignore the facts and ignore what is in front of their weak little eyes.

[Jeebus]

I think you've had too much to drink - or maybe it was too little?

But tonight I've never puke up a little in my mouth after reading a couple of posts.

What does that even mean???

FTR.. Myself and others made this thread constructive by debating the modern definition of a suburb in a southern post-WW2 city.

I wish I could say the same for you.

[InTheLoop]

TheNiche-

Thank you for your acknowledged tangent, although staying on point would have been appreciated.

Only you are "discussing" air quality in the suburbs. Notice?

I noted the irony apparent when TheNiche trumpets the cleaner air in the distant suburbs, given that commuters from these areas are often trapped on clogged, too narrow, insufficient routes into town, forcing them to ADD substantially to ozone and particulate pollution in their destination area - in this case, the already polluted city of Houston. That's indisputable. I noted the irony; I certainly did not challenge your assertion that the distant suburbs are less polluted. That really wasn't germane to our discussion (my orig. post); in fact, it's hardly a revelation.

You should start a thread regarding this topic (pollution) if it interests you. It won't however, require quoting my almost-completely distinct original post, which, as you know, was centered on hammering out a workable distinction between Houston's suburbs and exurbs - a subject addressed hundreds of times on this thread - and a subject reasonable people can disagree on and debate.

But tangents-acknowledged or not-are certainly your prerogative as a poster. Have at it, if that's what you choose...

Geewhiz.3

[LTAWACS]

LEARN TO USE QUOTES PROPERLY.

You should be more observant.

he can't he went to UHD not UH

You should learn to be more observant.

[TJones]

Reasons to hate the suburbs:

5. "family people" i.e. PTA Nazis, ragin' soccer dads, crappy bars full of old boring men who smoke like chimneys and bad karaoke

As opposed to bars with young hip non-smoking men who sing and look like George Michaels, that kyle prefers ? We understand your hatred for the 'burbs now kyle.

[LTAWACS]

As opposed to bars with young hip non-smoking men who sing and look like George Michaels, that kyle prefers ? We understand your hatred for the 'burbs now kyle.

What if they had good karaoke?

[KinkaidAlum]

wow.. this thread is awful...

allow me to take offense at the school issue that is constantly brought up... a quality education can be obtained whether in HISD or CFISD or SBISD etc..etc... it is up to the parents to stress education and work with their kids... a kid can go to Waltrip, Lamar, Bellaire, Jones, wherever and still get into Rice, UT, A&M, Yale, Duke etc...etc... clearly there may be more challenges faced in an urban setting, but it can be done.. and frankly if more parents who live in the loop would stay and keep their kids in public school then more funds would be available for those schools whereby improving the quality of the experience for all... don't be afraid of the minorities, keep your kids in the schools here and lets make them better!! one needs only to look at the work done in the Garden Oaks/Oak Forest area to see how much that elementary school has improved...

Thank you!

Even taking it further, there are several HISD schools and programs that are actually SUPERIOR to most suburban school districts. It's true. The facts are there (test scores, graduation rates, college acceptance rates). There are also many affordable options for folks to live in a zoned area for schools like Lamar and Bellaire. That said, you wont be able to afford media rooms, 3 car garages, wine cellars, faux stone exteriors or any of the other bling that you can afford in the burbs.

[TexasVines]

Thank you!

Even taking it further, there are several HISD schools and programs that are actually SUPERIOR to most suburban school districts. It's true. The facts are there (test scores, graduation rates, college acceptance rates). There are also many affordable options for folks to live in a zoned area for schools like Lamar and Bellaire. That said, you wont be able to afford media rooms, 3 car garages, wine cellars, faux stone exteriors or any of the other bling that you can afford in the burbs.

hand picking a few programs that draw from all over an extremely large district and using them to try and put down the burbs is one of the reasons so many people move to the burbs.....you are only fooling yourself with a few magnet programs while the vast majority of the schools are marginal.....but what ever makes you believe your own "stuff"

second who are you to tell people what they should spend their hard earned money on or mock your housing choice.....why does it always seem it is the "urban types" that ate so "enlightened" yet never can resist the chance to take a shot at the suburbs.....rarely if ever do you see those uneducated masses in the suburbs taking shots at those superior urban types......maybe it is because they are happy with their CHOICE and they (falsely) seem to believe that you are happy with your choices as well

and as long as someone is in the boundaries of HISD they pay taxes and the money goes to the district so it makes no difference if their kids go to private schools or not....while the individual school might not get money based on enrollment that is an issue with how a district spends the money not with those that CHOOSE the type of education they prefer for their children.....take it up with the district you have CHOSEN for your kids not with those that have made other choices

[N Judah]

Urban neighborhoods remind me of small town downtowns. Suburbs, not so much.

Also: urban areas tend to have better bus service.

[kylejack]

As opposed to bars with young hip non-smoking men who sing and look like George Michaels, that kyle prefers ? We understand your hatred for the 'burbs now kyle.

I don't do a lot of drinking, but when I do, yes I prefer Catbird's, Poison Girl, and Ernie's on Banks to (Katy bars) Bourbon Street Sports Bar and Stars Sports Bar by a fairly large margin. There are some notable exceptions. Olde City Pub in Spring is not so bad. Anything named Molly something usually sucks.

[LTAWACS]

I don't do a lot of drinking, but when I do, yes I prefer Catbird's, Poison Girl, and Ernie's on Banks to (Katy bars) Bourbon Street Sports Bar and Stars Sports Bar by a fairly large margin. There are some notable exceptions. Olde City Pub in Spring is not so bad. Anything named Molly something usually sucks.

Where the heck are these places?

[crunchtastic]

Where the heck are these places?

lower westheimer and lower montrose.

[kylejack]

Where the heck are these places?

Catbirds and Poison Girl are on Westheimer, both fairly close to Dunlavy. Ernie's on Banks...is on Banks. Its just south of 59 on Montrose. Bourbon Street is a sizable pool hall/bar on Mason Street in Katy. It used to be called Mr. B's, I think. Stars is on the west side of Katy, Grand Parkway territory.

[TJones]

Stars bar is on grand parway close to I-10, it is just your ordinary sports bar and the drinks aren't watered down. I don't recall Karaoke being there. There is a nice new Baker St. pub in La Centerra, no karaoke there and a nice mix of Cougars and Hotties that go there, I think I might have been one of the older men in the bar at 38, and a 2 perhaps 3 to 1 ratio of women to men, so it was a target rich enviroment for me.

[N Judah]

Man I must be going to Baker St at all the wrong times.

[crunchtastic]

There is a nice new Baker St. pub in La Centerra, no karaoke there and a nice mix of Cougars and Hotties that go there, I think I might have been one of the older men in the bar at 38, and a 2 perhaps 3 to 1 ratio of women to men, so it was a target rich enviroment for me.

I bet 80% of everyone in a suburban Baker St are married to someone not with them, so 'target rich environment' is pretty damn funny. Crazy TJ.

[TJones]

I bet 80% of everyone in a suburban Baker St are married to someone not with them, so 'target rich environment' is pretty damn funny. Crazy TJ.

I have come to find out that it is like this in most SUBURBAN Houston areas crunch. Judah, I'll let ya know next time I decide to mosey on over to Baker St.

[N Judah]

I remember seeing a lot of families there...and a lot of cigarette smoke. And fat guys in oversized Cowboys replica jerseys who would make loud remarks in the hopes of other people overhearing them, without addressing them directly.

So far, I prefer Sport Stadia Grill.

[crunchtastic]

I remember seeing a lot of families there...

This is the second or third time someone in a Katy post has mentioned families/children in connection with Baker St. I didn't realize that the Katy Baker St was different from the bar chain. This would explain why my brother (who was dying for a good beer bar out there) was kind of put off when he went. Who brings their toddlers along to smoke, drink and watch football? I think I'll stick to drinking ITL, where bars are still for adults.

[kylejack]

This is the second or third time someone in a Katy post has mentioned families/children in connection with Baker St. I didn't realize that the Katy Baker St was different from the bar chain. This would explain why my brother (who was dying for a good beer bar out there) was kind of put off when he went. Who brings their toddlers along to smoke, drink and watch football? I think I'll stick to drinking ITL, where bars are still for adults.

High-five, fellow ITL elitist.

[N Judah]

I wasn't saying the families were a bad thing, just that it really didn't come off as a "target rich environment" to me. I mean, half of the place is a restaurant, so of course you'll get a lot of families coming in. A "pub and grill" atmosphere for me implies families, as opposed to a "bar" scene which has people getting trashed and saying "woo" a lot.

[rsb320]

This is the second or third time someone in a Katy post has mentioned families/children in connection with Baker St. I didn't realize that the Katy Baker St was different from the bar chain. This would explain why my brother (who was dying for a good beer bar out there) was kind of put off when he went. Who brings their toddlers along to smoke, drink and watch football? I think I'll stick to drinking ITL, where bars are still for adults.

Except we ITLers can't smoke inside anymore, which I don't mind. It used to make my hair smell.

[TJones]

I wasn't saying the families were a bad thing, just that it really didn't come off as a "target rich environment" to me. I mean, half of the place is a restaurant, so of course you'll get a lot of families coming in. A "pub and grill" atmosphere for me implies families, as opposed to a "bar" scene which has people getting trashed and saying "woo" a lot.

Are you going during the day time, or for Monday night football ? LOL! I didn't see ONE kid in the place except for maybe a few underagers trying to pass fake ID or they knew the door guy. Try going out on a Thursday night or Friday night, I am pretty sure you won't run into that problem.

[LTAWACS]

This is the second or third time someone in a Katy post has mentioned families/children in connection with Baker St. I didn't realize that the Katy Baker St was different from the bar chain. This would explain why my brother (who was dying for a good beer bar out there) was kind of put off when he went. Who brings their toddlers along to smoke, drink and watch football? I think I'll stick to drinking ITL, where bars are still for adults.

The fact that it's in Katy says it all.

On a side note, are there any wine or cigar bars out there?