I have a serious question I want some serious answers and opinions on

[memebag]

I may be getting off topic here, but I have a problem with students' attitude toward college. This is not a new thing; it was like this when I was in college too: going to class in pajamas, or flip-flops; showing up late; missing exams with a lame excuse... this is totally acceptable behavior at many colleges. I think it keeps students in an extended state of adolescence, at exactly the time they should be learning to be professional adults.

I am a professional with a Ph.D., and it makes me absolutely crazy to be sharing my expertise with someone who is lounging in his chair, flip-flops kicked off, computer open, and a solitaire game going. It's totally disrespectful. And it teaches the student nothing about professional conduct.

Or maybe it prepares them for the best white collar jobs, where we get to wear pajamas and flip flops to work and keep a game of solitaire going for months.

It's called the dumbing down of America. What does it say when 85% of students cannot even locate Paris, France on a map and mark Indonesia or Australia as Greece?

Read it and weep.

Could You Have Passed the 8th Grade in 1895? or Are Schools Being Dumbed Down?

Then take a look at this Snopes article.

[SchwinnChopper68]

Or maybe it prepares them for the best white collar jobs

Yes, yes a job. Just Over Broke. What pray tell prepares them to use their imagination, their vision, their inspiration, to be creative, to forge new businesses where no man has gone before or thought of before? (kudos to Cap'n Kirk) Yes, today it's all about me, me, me and job, job, job. What can your company do for me? Where did that pioneer spirit go? To forge ahead and build things on your own without a corporate daddy figure telling you what to do, what to think and what to believe? That's what I'm talking about but just like the type of women I prefer, they are not making those types any more.

Then take a look at this Snopes article.

I did, snopes did not say the article was fake, snopes merely in their own thinking stated they think what was important in 1895 is not important today. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The point being is the difficulty of the tests, not what the questions are about. I doubt very few "students" today need to know how to figure wheat bushels per metric ton. (but then on the other hand...) The gist of the article is the dumbing down of the average student over the years to where they are passed grade to grade because flunking would injure the "poor childs" self image.

Alas it is difficult to debate dumbing down with folks that believe dumbing down has not happened and is not occuring. For those types it's best to remain with their heads in the sand.

For those that think every generation is smarter and smarter, well...that's what makes America great..you are entitled to your opinion.

In my long sojourn on this rock revolving around an atom out in the middle of an backwoods, unknown galaxy among billions of galaxies I've come to accept that out of 6.7 billion souls on this spaceship that I inhabit, I vibrate a tuning fork with perhaps 20 or 30 of those souls. The rest are evolving their own agendas, lifestyles and ideas that are going in a 180 degree opposite direction. Out of those 20 or 30 I expect to bump into perhaps 2 or 3 of them if I am lucky before departing for frontiers unknown.

[RedScare]

I disagree that the problem is that we (as a society) have overemphasized wealth and consumption as priorities, though I think that over-consumption is symptomatic of a different problem.

Rather, I think that it is the promotion of the sense that everyone is entitled to an 'American Dream'. Not everyone is cut out to attend college, be a successful white-collar professional, to be a homeowner, to own a small business some day so that they can be their own boss, or to be able to afford a half-million dollars in cancer treatment so that they don't die a few years earlier than would otherwise be expected. These concepts are exceptionally alluring to most of the population, be they able and willing to accomplish these objectives or not.

The trouble as I see it is that American society has redefined the traditional sense of poverty, which formerly was living below subsistence...this is a far cry from contemporary concepts of poverty, where poorer people seem to be the most prone to obesity! Instead there is a sense of entitlement to something better than subsistence, on the grounds that everyone should have the same opportunities. College, home ownership, healthcare, retirement, all are increasingly considered opportunities (but actually as ends in and of themselves) that are necessary and as serving the social good. And in and of themselves, the concepts are important. However, as public policy has been adapted to this attitude so as to promote the concepts as something applying to more people than would otherwise have been the case (i.e. home ownership), we run up against reality and get ourselves into trouble.

Wealth and consumption should be a priority--for those who value it. They should have the opportunity to pursue it, but should be prepared to work their asses off to get what they want and not be under the impression that they are in any way shape or form entitled to it. And they may need to prepare themselves for being told that they aren't good enough; they are not a unique and special snowflake; and mommy won't always be there either as an advocate or as a safety net.

...incidentally, it is amazing the number of people from my generation that go back to live with their parents well into their late 20's!!!

EDIT: Way to go crunch! I see we're on the same page.

I agree wholeheartedly that the 'entitlement mentality' is a much more pronounced affliction of the upper middle class than the poor. It is simply defined as the 'American Dream' for that socio-economic class. I don't think redefining poverty is such a bad thing. More important is the redefinition of acceptable work and acceptable living, which is somewhat akin to what you are saying. It is in a society's interest to help the poor become productive, as a productive member of society is at once not a burdern, and also a contributor to the economy. So, free welfare (a fish) is not helpful, yet aid while getting training or education (learning to fish) is helpful.

By the same token, singleminded fixation on wealth and consumption may not be bad for a few. When an entire society fixates on it, and worse, sees it as an entitlement, the equilibrium is upset. I believe that this is where we are at, that everyone thinks they can...and should be...rich, and is spending like they already are. This collective greed has caused problems in virtually every sector of society, from corporations run for short term gains, to an abhorrence of blue collar work, to outlandish debt by those who wish to have the trappings of wealth before they achieve wealth, to decisions by young people to go into business majors, rather than science and engineering, to a general shift in society's priorities.

Like a dog that has gotten a taste of blood, I do not know if we can go back to the days of old. How do you convince an entire society that more austere living, with a focus on less consumption driven pursuits is better for society, and therefore for them personally? How do you convince a society that a depression could actually be good for them if they use it to change their focus? I do not know that it can be done in a free society, and I do not advocate reducation camps.

[TheNiche]

I may be getting off topic here, but I have a problem with students' attitude toward college. This is not a new thing; it was like this when I was in college too: going to class in pajamas, or flip-flops; showing up late; missing exams with a lame excuse... this is totally acceptable behavior at many colleges. I think it keeps students in an extended state of adolescence, at exactly the time they should be learning to be professional adults.

I am a professional with a Ph.D., and it makes me absolutely crazy to be sharing my expertise with someone who is lounging in his chair, flip-flops kicked off, computer open, and a solitaire game going. It's totally disrespectful. And it teaches the student nothing about professional conduct.

I guess I'm an old fart, but I'd like to see college students show up for class dressed in business casual, and behaving accordingly. I think they'd learn more.

I'm not so much on board with this for much the same reason as RedScare hit on earlier with structured vs. unstructured learning. College is to some extent about learning and exploiting your own abilities and also about testing your limitations, sometimes reaping the consequences.

I took several courses in college that were in subjects that I found out through trial and error that I was highly disinterested in, including Communications, Accounting, and Architecture. And I've always been terrible at Math courses because I know that all I have to do is invest enough time in mundane practice and that I would do well, only to prove to someone who doesn't care that I could do it, meet minimum objectives, and advance to the next level, all without necessarily picking up transferrable knowledge. These weren't terribly difficult courses, but anything that I encountered that either wasn't challenging enough or that wasn't interesting enough was a course that I'd end up doing poorly in, basically for lack of motivation. And that would be my signal that such a field would be a good thing not to major or minor in. And I'll readily admit that I ran up against some walls even fulfilling the core curriculum, basically for lack of interest in the subject matter. I do hate being put in a position to jump hurdles as though I were living out a dog show; nevertheless, I'd admit in hindsight that running up against my own weaknesses--in one form or another--provided insight into myself and built character.

The fact is that by any objective measure, I was a terrible student. You'd have probably hated me! I worked an engaging full-time job, sometimes including overtime, and therefore was frequently late, absent, or had to leave early. I often worked so late that I'd sleep through nearly all of my morning classes, if I had any. And I've been so cheap as to borrow an out-of-date textbook from the library for a class that allowed open-book tests. I've never been crazy about homework, especially if it is time-consuming, mundane, and does nothing in and of itself to advance my knowledge, so that'd drive some professors up the wall and count against my GPA...not that I particularly cared because I knew that the network that I was cultivating within my industry would exempt me from the rigors of a traditional hiring process wherein GPA mattered.

Nevertheless, those classes and professors in which I've taken an interest have been richly rewarded. Nobody was so willing and able to challenge (or even to aggressively combat) their assumptions or to bring in external experience and analogy as I was. A former department head tried to get me into a Ph.D program; another has vouched for me as I've tried to hit on women; another has promised me a guest lecture if I should ever be willing to give it. Yet there are way...way more professors at UH that would think that these ones are crazy. ...you'd probably have been one of them.

And I'd bet that from the content and structure of my posts here on HAIF, you'd never have guessed at my collegiate habits.

[Mark F. Barnes]

I agree wholeheartedly that the 'entitlement mentality' is a much more pronounced affliction of the upper middle class than the poor. It is simply defined as the 'American Dream' for that socio-economic class. I don't think redefining poverty as such a bad thing. More important is the redefinition of acceptable work and acceptable living, which is somewhat akin to what you are saying. It is in a society's interest to help the poor become productive, as a productive member of society is at once not a burdern, and also a contributor to the economy. So, free welfare (a fish) is not helpful, yet aid while getting training or education (learning to fish) is helpful.

By the same token, singleminded fixation on wealth and consumption may not be bad for a few. When an entire society fixates on it, and worse, sees it as an entitlement, the equilibrium is upset. I believe that this is where we are at, that everyone thinks they can...and should be...rich, and is spending like they already are. This collective greed has caused problems in virtually every sector of society, from corporations run for short term gains, to an abhorrence of blue collar work, to outlandish debt by those who wish to have the trappings of wealth before they achieve wealth, to decisions by young people to go into business majors, rather than science and engineering, to a general shift in socirty's priorities.

Like a dog that has gotten a taste of blood, I do not know if we can go back to the days of old. How do you convince an entire society that more austere living, with a focus on less consumption driven pursuits is better for society, and therefore for them personally? How do you convince a society that a depression could actually be good for them if they use it to change their focus? I do not know that it can be done in a free society, and I do not advocate reducation camps.

Whether or not we can go back to the days of old, may or may not be by choice, the way we are going. If we don't get things back on track, we may be forced to by necessity of survival. Which makes me wonder, would people be able to survive going backward. Ike gave us a brief glimpse of the way it use to be, no air conditioning, no television, very limited luxuries available, even running water for some. Makes you think a little bit, how things have really changed. But then think about all those days, where you had to find other ways to entertain yourself, or come up with ways to make things more comfortable. Your mind was actually functioning at a higher level, your senses were at red alert levels. You were actually living life, instead of life living you. Having to sit and think for a change, instead of vegetating in from of a television.

Speaking in regards to television, the television, in my opinion, has bastardized generations good people into blindered zombies. Their everyday way of think is shape and manipulated by the media and context has been so blurred and distorted by television, and I'm not saying news media, just television in general. Look at the onslaught of so called "reality shows" that are anything but reality. People buy into this manufactured "reality", and soon become crippled mentally and are unable to differentiate between truth and non-truth. We've been fitted for blinders from reality, by the distraction of distorted context, of everyday life. I know this sounds hypocritical coming from a full blown news junkie, that has a multi-screen media center in his office, so I can monitor all the different channels at once, but I think television has become more harmful than helpful. It's a crutch for some of us to get away from what's really bothering us in the world, but the irony of it all, as in my case, television being the bane source of the issue, and yet monitoring the distorted reality of the world, through the news, somehow gives me a false sense of peace. Sometimes I think I should have volunteered for some of Timothy Leary's isolation tank experiments. It's a tangled web we weave.

[sarahiki]

I'm not so much on board with this for much the same reason as RedScare hit on earlier with structured vs. unstructured learning. College is to some extent about learning and exploiting your own abilities and also about testing your limitations, sometimes reaping the consequences.

I took several courses in college that were in subjects that I found out through trial and error that I was highly disinterested in, including Communications, Accounting, and Architecture. And I've always been terrible at Math courses because I know that all I have to do is invest enough time in mundane practice and that I would do well, only to prove to someone who doesn't care that I could do it, meet minimum objectives, and advance to the next level, all without necessarily picking up transferrable knowledge. These weren't terribly difficult courses, but anything that I encountered that either wasn't challenging enough or that wasn't interesting enough was a course that I'd end up doing poorly in, basically for lack of motivation. And that would be my signal that such a field would be a good thing not to major or minor in. And I'll readily admit that I ran up against some walls even fulfilling the core curriculum, basically for lack of interest in the subject matter. I do hate being put in a position to jump hurdles as though I were living out a dog show; nevertheless, I'd admit in hindsight that running up against my own weaknesses--in one form or another--provided insight into myself and built character.

The fact is that by any objective measure, I was a terrible student. You'd have probably hated me! I worked an engaging full-time job, sometimes including overtime, and therefore was frequently late, absent, or had to leave early. I often worked so late that I'd sleep through nearly all of my morning classes, if I had any. And I've been so cheap as to borrow an out-of-date textbook from the library for a class that allowed open-book tests. I've never been crazy about homework, especially if it is time-consuming, mundane, and does nothing in and of itself to advance my knowledge, so that'd drive some professors up the wall and count against my GPA...not that I particularly cared because I knew that the network that I was cultivating within my industry would exempt me from the rigors of a traditional hiring process wherein GPA mattered.

Nevertheless, those classes and professors in which I've taken an interest have been richly rewarded. Nobody was so willing and able to challenge (or even to aggressively combat) their assumptions or to bring in external experience and analogy as I was. A former department head tried to get me into a Ph.D program; another has vouched for me as I've tried to hit on women; another has promised me a guest lecture if I should ever be willing to give it. Yet there are way...way more professors at UH that would think that these ones are crazy. ...you'd probably have been one of them.

And I'd bet that from the content and structure of my posts here on HAIF, you'd never have guessed at my collegiate habits.

Well, I don't think that's fair. I am respectful of all my students and I recognize the challenges they face, including work and family.

[TheNiche]

Well, I don't think that's fair. I am respectful of all my students and I recognize the challenges they face, including work and family.

That my working during college took priority was not a challenge, and I hope that I did not come across as having framed it as such! I never sought pity for it. My priorities were a strategic decision--one that I neither regret or apologize for.

Some professors I could tell were personally insulted by my behavior or approach...though few had the courage to bring it up directly. Others understood that they were only service providers and that I was only a consumer. They respected me for pursuing my own interests, insofar as I had a sense of what I wanted and how I was going to get there. The same thing goes for the very best of my teachers from high school.

[20thStDad]

I agree with most things in this thread, from nurturing vs. pampering our children to the changing work ethics. I've noticed these things since college. I was an engineering major, and 90% of the kids in my classes got by on having previous years' exams and homework results (complete with answers of course). They could not learn without them. I was one of only a handful that just did my assignments on my own. They would actually whine when it was a new teacher/course for which they couldn't get old papers. Annoying.

This sense of lazy entitlement has started to show up at work as well. Employees for which I do performance reviews are constantly whining and expecting things they have not yet earned. They want special recognition and rewards for simply doing their job requirement, they are not even close to achieving anything I would classify as above or beyond.

I can only hope that I am able to raise my children to appreciate REAL hard work and a sense of earning things instead of being entitled to them.

[N Judah]

Foreigners are always looking for any excuse to go on a rant about Americans. Any little tiny bit of leverage they get to throw you off, they'll use.

But there is still something to it. Here's my take:

-- specialization (leave the governing to the government, and the living to me)

-- waaaay too many egomaniacs to really get anything decent done

-- zero government decisions are made on behalf of the public interest anymore, and what used to belong to the public is being transferred to private ownership (which was *never* the case) and there's this "learned helplessness" that results among the remaining few who actually care

-- end result is this concept (by my own estimation, somewhat common among non-egomaniacs) of "living in a foreign country"...kind of a 'don't blame me, I just live here' type of thing. Stuff just happens and I don't have anything to do with any of it. I just do what I can until I can't.

[crunchtastic]

Nevertheless, those classes and professors in which I've taken an interest have been richly rewarded. Nobody was so willing and able to challenge (or even to aggressively combat) their assumptions or to bring in external experience and analogy as I was. A former department head tried to get me into a Ph.D program; another has vouched for me as I've tried to hit on women; another has promised me a guest lecture if I should ever be willing to give it.

Oh, Niche, I just knew that if I perservered through that post, I'd get to the payoff! Challenging the PhDs, whew! What a maverick!

Seriously, you ought to take them up on the guest lecture thing. You could make a whole pittance as an adjunct, and shape young, bored minds. Cap'n Crunch is actually going back to teaching a class or two, next semester, I think. I don't want to blow your story, but I've seen some of those UH department heads in action, all liquored up. Ewwww. Hopefully you graduated to another wingman.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Man we had a meeting on schools last night at Phil's Roadhouse, and the topic of who's fault is was kids are not doing as well as other countries. Someone stood up and blamed the schools, and then two teachers, one being my wife, who were present started to defend that, and one of the local town idiots spouted off at my wife, that it's always easier to blame the parents. Well that's when I took the floor and held a little court. I do find it easy to blame the parents. It's first the responsibility of the parent to instill the basics in their children. And Civic Duty is one of those moral issues, that I feel IMHO that most kids are lacking these days. I raised six kids to know their country, and how it works. To understand right and wrong, accept the fact that there things in life that will always disappoint you, but to never to use that as a crutch or excuse to fail. I allowed them the opportunity to make tough decisions in life, but always provided them a safety net, just in case the made the wrong one, but that safety net always came with stipulations that they fully understand the consequences of their actions. It's not the schools purpose to raise your kids, it's not their purpose to train them, it's their purpose to provide them with the means to get a good education, and it's the responsibility of the child to get one. It's the responsibility of the parent to instill the incentive and willingness to go and get that education, to study hard and achieve. It is the responsibility of the parent to support these kids teachers, and it the responsibility of teachers to inspire the kids to achieve. Not misdirect them with personal opinion and conjecture. There are good teachers, there are bad teachers, and then there are great teachers. Teaching is an art, it's a passion, not everyone is cut out to be one. And there are some that really shouldn't be. I think to be a great teachers, civic mindedness is a must. It works hand in hand with what they are doing to begin with.

Man I hate stupid people.....

[plumber2]

This is true:

I was listeneing to a local talk radio station this moring.........you know the one. A caller was commenting on how unpatriotic today's generation is. He went on about how our troops fought against communism and socialism during World War II and that we should be thankful for them for saving the world from Marxist control.

The talk show host let him go on without correcting him and thanked him for his call and for being such a true patriot.

[sarahiki]

Man we had a meeting on schools last night at Phil's Roadhouse, and the topic of who's fault is was kids are not doing as well as other countries. Someone stood up and blamed the schools, and then two teachers, one being my wife, who were present started to defend that, and one of the local town idiots spouted off at my wife, that it's always easier to blame the parents. Well that's when I took the floor and held a little court. I do find it easy to blame the parents. It's first the responsibility of the parent to instill the basics in their children. And Civic Duty is one of those moral issues, that I feel IMHO that most kids are lacking these days. I raised six kids to know their country, and how it works. To understand right and wrong, accept the fact that there things in life that will always disappoint you, but to never to use that as a crutch or excuse to fail. I allowed them the opportunity to make tough decisions in life, but always provided them a safety net, just in case the made the wrong one, but that safety net always came with stipulations that they fully understand the consequences of their actions. It's not the schools purpose to raise your kids, it's not their purpose to train them, it's their purpose to provide them with the means to get a good education, and it's the responsibility of the child to get one. It's the responsibility of the parent to instill the incentive and willingness to go and get that education, to study hard and achieve. It is the responsibility of the parent to support these kids teachers, and it the responsibility of teachers to inspire the kids to achieve. Not misdirect them with personal opinion and conjecture. There are good teachers, there are bad teachers, and then there are great teachers. Teaching is an art, it's a passion, not everyone is cut out to be one. And there are some that really shouldn't be. I think to be a great teachers, civic mindedness is a must. It works hand in hand with what they are doing to begin with.

Man I hate stupid people.....

Hear, hear... to all of that. I'm glad we agree on something, Mark!

[Mark F. Barnes]

Hear, hear... to all of that. I'm glad we agree on something, Mark!

Once this election is over Sara, you will find we probably have a lot more common ground than you know. I lean right, not fall on my face right. I consider myself a midstream conservative. But I also have many things that my far right brethren totally disagree with. On the surface Red and I thrash at each other, in what I call a gentleman's jousting match, but deep down there is a lot of common ground we can find peace with. See I fully understand Red gets a perspective on life that some of us never get to see a lot of, being the top flight Barrister, as he most certainly is. And most of it is from one extreme to another, and I admire that.

[Vertigo58]

This is true:

I was listeneing to a local talk radio station this moring.........you know the one. A caller was commenting on how unpatriotic today's generation is. He went on about how our troops fought against communism and socialism during World War II and that we should be thankful for them for saving the world from Marxist control.

The talk show host let him go on without correcting him and thanked him for his call and for being such a true patriot.

I am totally supportive of Mark too. Completely.

The lack of morality & patriotism is something that continues to grow like a cancer. On any given night or day just click on the TV/radio/internet and all you see are parody's/satires and down right slander of the ones we are supposed to look up to. If we were in 1940's war time and you even made a slur on the president of the US you would probably would get a real a... kicking and well deserved, not to mention be marked a communist. I wish we had some war time vets on this forum to give their 2 cents worth. They are the ones that went thru hell to save this country. How do you think they feel to see & hear all this 60 yrs later. Most people know the reaon most other countries hate us is because of the loose morals and dress code, etc. Could write a book. Mark for President!

[TheNiche]

I am totally supportive of Mark too. Completely.

The lack of morality & patriotism is something that continues to grow like a cancer. On any given night or day just click on the TV/radio/internet and all you see are parody's/satires and down right slander of the ones we are supposed to look up to. If we were in 1940's war time and you even made a slur on the president of the US you would probably would get a real a... kicking and well deserved, not to mention be marked a communist. I wish we had some war time vets on this forum to give their 2 cents worth. They are the ones that went thru hell to save this country. How do you think they feel to see & hear all this 60 yrs later. Most people know the reaon most other countries hate us is because of the loose morals and dress code, etc. Could write a book. Mark for President!

Seems like this thread has diverged into two different directions. One is about people not understanding the mechanisms and theory of civics. The other is about the practice of civics and it is being posed as a normative discussion, with several people frustrated basically by people that don't subscribe to a concept of manners that they approve of.

If I may say so, the latter discussion is kind of petty. What does anybody care that someone likes to wear sandals, t-shirts, or shorts? Seriously, how does that diminish your quality of life any more than it adds to theirs? As for patriotism or for showing respect to elected officials, its my personal belief that they should receive all the scrutiny and cynicism that we as a people can muster. At the same time, I think that we need to pay politicians more. As it is, we only seem to get wealthy people willing to pay for an office where they have to take crap from everyone, and it just doesn't seem to be very conducive to either encouraging the most competent people to run for office or at keeping them from being tempted to abuse the powers of their office for material gain. And yes, that means that I'd advocate throwing away the notion of the civic-minded statesman in favor of someone only seeking a job that pays well with career advancement opportunities...but only because our current lot of civic-minded statesmen don't seem to work out very well for us.

And frankly, I refuse to look up to someone. When I'm sitting across the table from men whose net worth is in the eight digits, who tell stories about the massive deals they've done, the positions of power they've held, and so on and so forth, I'm not going to treat them any differently than I do my long-haired pot-smoking bass-playing philosophy-majoring friend from back in high school if he were in the room. They're both only human and I am only myself. They can like me or dislike me. It's their prerogative. And a lot of people really don't like me. So what? And to the extent that this applies to foreign perceptions of the United States...so what? Are they going to bomb us? Fine, we'll bomb them back. But we shouldn't change for them, nor should they expect us to.

[plumber2]

I am totally supportive of Mark too. Completely.

The lack of morality & patriotism is something that continues to grow like a cancer. On any given night or day just click on the TV/radio/internet and all you see are parody's/satires and down right slander of the ones we are supposed to look up to. If we were in 1940's war time and you even made a slur on the president of the US you would probably would get a real a... kicking and well deserved, not to mention be marked a communist. I wish we had some war time vets on this forum to give their 2 cents worth. They are the ones that went thru hell to save this country. How do you think they feel to see & hear all this 60 yrs later. Most people know the reaon most other countries hate us is because of the loose morals and dress code, etc. Could write a book. Mark for President!

My whole point was that the talk show host was so supportive of the caller and his patriotism position that he failed to notice that the facts were all wrong. Our troops fought Facism and Nazism in Word War II. The "Communists", if you remember, happened to be our allies durng that war.

[Subdude]

"Elitist" Now there is a word that is like some-one's nails being dragged across a chalkboard, to me. Because someone want to better themselves through education, and hard work, instead of just hard work, that term gets tossed around loosely, when in reality it should be stricken from the English language. It's nothing more than a negative insult, thrown about by those too lazy to come up with a way to express how they really feel. Which is if the truth be known, those that use the term, are nothing more than jealous of the person, to which it is hurled, and is a camouflage of sort, to hide the disappointment of the hurler, of their shortcomings. Whether it's hurled at education or intellect, or social status and wealth, it's cheap shot at trying to be insulting, and only reflect the hurlers own lack on content. And blogging and forums, (oh yes even HAIF), and texting, is killing the English language. LOL, IMHO, BFF, all this crap is taking over basic expression, and I can be as guilty as anyone. We are always in such a rush to get it done and move on to the next subject, that we have lost all ability to generate a common thought through the written word. Even the books that you see now days are just a tidbit anymore. Where did all the Mark Twain's and Jack London's of our time go to. All these Barnes and Noble literary waste generators, are just filling the shelves with crap, to rot your brain. Growing up without a television in your face all the time, reading was all we had as kids, to stimulate the imagination. Even the cheesy westerns of Louis L'Amour, open your mind to thought and dreaming. Someone used the term "Dumbing Down America", I think that pretty much sums it up. We have got to get our younger people back on track, with expressing the common thought through the written word. Life has got to be slowed down just enough, to be able to think things through, and catch all these issues in mid-stream, instead of letting them all pile up, and then come down on us all at once. Pretty soon there will nobody left to have a decent conversation with, much less an intelligent discussion. Jesus, I have hi-jacked my own thread. But none the less it's all interactive when it comes to education, or rather the lack of in some instances.

I would have to agree. Use of terms like "elitist" have the effect of saying a lot more about the speaker than the subject. What it tends to say is that the speaker has a chip on his shoulder and is resentful of those who are better educated or whatnot. To be perfectly blunt, it's the verbal equivalent of tattooing an "L" on your forehead.

[Subdude]

I am totally supportive of Mark too. Completely.

The lack of morality & patriotism is something that continues to grow like a cancer. On any given night or day just click on the TV/radio/internet and all you see are parody's/satires and down right slander of the ones we are supposed to look up to. If we were in 1940's war time and you even made a slur on the president of the US you would probably would get a real a... kicking and well deserved, not to mention be marked a communist. I wish we had some war time vets on this forum to give their 2 cents worth. They are the ones that went thru hell to save this country. How do you think they feel to see & hear all this 60 yrs later. Most people know the reaon most other countries hate us is because of the loose morals and dress code, etc. Could write a book. Mark for President!

I wouldn't think most other countries hate us, but if they did it would hardly be because of "loose morals and dress code". Others may not admire our culture, but there are more substantive issues at stake.

I would also very much have to disagree with your assertion that satirizing the president somehow amounts to a lack of morality and patriotism. Pick up a history book - one of the founding precepts of America was freedom of speech, including slurring kings and presidents. It strikes me as an extremely shallow interpretation of patriotism to think it means not criticizing those "we are supposed to look up to". "Supposed to look up to" according to whom? Whom I choose to look up to is my own choice.