China

[TheNiche]

Just curious Niche', how much time have YOU spent in China? From the sound of it not much. China might surprise those that have never been, since the early 70's, during the Mao years, China has been rapidly catching up at a torrid pace with the West, and set their sights on being a major player in the game. You have to remember, they make up 1/5th of the worlds population, all by themselves. They have the ability to achieve their goals, don't sell them short by any means.

I dated a gal that had lived there for over a year. There's not the slightest doubt that they have come (and are going) a long way, or that the coastal cities have quite a few really attractive areas. There are a tremendous number of wealthy Chinese people. But if only by virtue of its population levels, that tremendous number doesn't really mean much for the many hundreds of millions that still live in squalor. She told stories about how the widow from which she rented a room would still eat cockroaches from time to time, about defecation in the streets, etc. And the government still was not totally comfortable with the prospect of unrestricted travel by foreigners into many rural areas.

[Mark F. Barnes]

I dated a gal that had lived there for over a year. There's not the slightest doubt that they have come (and are going) a long way, or that the coastal cities have quite a few really attractive areas. There are a tremendous number of wealthy Chinese people. But if only by virtue of its population levels, that tremendous number doesn't really mean much for the many hundreds of millions that still live in squalor. She told stories about how the widow from which she rented a room would still eat cockroaches from time to time, about defecation in the streets, etc. And the government still was not totally comfortable with the prospect of unrestricted travel by foreigners into many rural areas.

Well if you would have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, I might have bought it. Seriously though, I have spent extended amounts of time over there in carious areas of China working, well over a year or two. But I have news for you, those conditions you just described can be found not too far from where you currently reside. Poverty or Squalor as you so dramatically described is world wide, and we hosted the Olympics too, is there some sort of difference I missed. People here in West Virginia are living in "Squalor", some like you may have never seen. Have you been through some of the poverty areas of Southern California or Rural Georgia lately, games were hosted in both places. It seems everyone is in an uproar than China got the bid for the Olympics, is it because Houston hasn't gotten one yet?

When the unknowing people think of China, the first thing out of their mouth is Tiananmen Square. Well you youngsters that aren't old enough to remember what went on in the South just 40 years ago, wasn't much unlike Tiananmen Square. Authorities beat down protesters in the streets, sicked dogs on them, and in some cases murdered them in cold blood. We aren't talking gang violence, we are talking about cops and National Guardsmen, and in a few cases deputized citizens acting in an authoritative role.

Someone asked what good things China had given to mankind, well this list is too long to try and start, but a quick Google would give you a pretty good idea. But China is still in an evolutionary period, and more and more are becoming democratic and open-minded, which may contribute to China

[memebag]

I agree. Someone please educate me on how China is contributing to world affairs in a positive way, besides have Beijing attempt to stop polluting for two weeks.

Cheap tube socks.

[TheNiche]

I think you're reading too much into what I've said. Poverty does exist in both the U.S. and China...but it is manifested differently...and certainly it is (present tense) far, far more prevalent over there. And I'm talking about the here and now, not about the past, not about the future.

[livincinco]

I agree. Someone please educate me on how China is contributing to world affairs in a positive way, besides have Beijing attempt to stop polluting for two weeks.

And don't counter by asking me to name all the positive ways we are contributing to the world - we're not hosting the olympics - China is.

China is not looking to contribute to world affairs in any fashion. The Chinese government is primarily concerned with holding onto the runaway train of economic growth that they're on. There only foreign policy is economic and geared toward maintaining their growth through trade.

And don't talk about Taiwan, because neither country considers that world affairs. Taiwan is part of China regardless of the difference in governments.

[webdude]

Nobody is accusing their culture but they are a bit backwards after 5,000 years.

Why did the governement issue guides for citizens to instruct them not to spit in the street, cut in line and a host of other odd behaviors?

5,000 years and what do they have to show for it?

FYI - The smog in Bejing is lovely today. Check out Brian Williams' broadcast on the nightly news.

Human rights abuses alone should have prevented China from ever hosting the games.

Seems I did used the correct term and hit the nail on the head, someone IS PISSED that China is getting the limelight along with some positive comments from the international community. No one is overlooking the bad stuff, as you implied. No one is dumb enough (except some) to overlook the good ones either. At least they are not trying to police the world, not yet anyway. And you do know in many world polls, other countries view us, mostly our leaders of course, as less trustworthy, and more dangerous than China's.

And when you have 5000 years of history, what is that 50 or even 100 years of 'backwardness' in context of that history, the important thing is they are catching up or surpassing other countries down the road, and none too soon.

Its just the Olympics. Chill out and let them have their moment.

[wernicke]

Wow... pages of discussion on the Chinese government. No comments on the Olympics 2008!

Phelps tore it up. Go USA.

EDIT: The mod split this topic off after I had clicked, before I had posted.

[MidtownCoog]

Police the world or be policed...

The option is yours.

[webdude]

China is not looking to contribute to world affairs in any fashion. The Chinese government is primarily concerned with holding onto the runaway train of economic growth that they're on. There only foreign policy is economic and geared toward maintaining their growth through trade.

And don't talk about Taiwan, because neither country considers that world affairs. Taiwan is part of China regardless of the difference in governments.

And that is the good thing, capitalism, which is helping us too. Isn't that what we want, more capitalism around the world, so it will benefit us? We wanted to open China up, and boy, we sure did.

Police the world or be policed...

The option is yours.

Except the world sees it as criminal activity, so of course, the option is ours.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Wow... pages of discussion on the Chinese government. No comments on the Olympics 2008!

Phelps tore it up. Go USA.

EDIT: The mod split this topic off after I had clicked, before I had posted.

No actually the Editor Split the topics 6 hours before you posted, your clicker must be really really slow or you didn't read correctly, I'm thinking the latter.

[Jeebus]

You want to gripe about Human Rights problems, take a trip in country to Burma. You want to see people living in "Squalor", take a trip to Burma. There is a lot bigger issues around the world besides China. How do you think they're feeling in the Republic of Georgia this morning? Russia is bombing the hell out of them trying to steal border lines again.

Well, when Burma, Russia, or even Georgia for that matter (Russia's not the only one firing bullets and dropping bombs over there..) host the the Olympics, then we'll focus on them accordingly.

Taiwan is part of China regardless of the difference in governments.

Try telling Taiwan that. China wouldn't even let them fly their own flag at the olympic opening ceremony.

[Mark F. Barnes]

So you're only real gripe is they are hosting the Olympics and nothing else, because that's the only reason you are "focusing on them accordingly." Well your beef is with the IOC not the Chinese.

Why don't you say what you really mean. Because IMHO I just think you hate the Chinese, and are using the Olympics as an excuse and a cover story for that hate. That's what I am gathering from all this. And hey that's your right to hate whoever you want, I am sure my wife and in-laws are probably not too much further down your list from the Chinese, and as far as that goes my kids too I guess. The Lebanese people have never hosted the Olympics, but they have kicked the hell out of a few Syrians, and refuse to allow Hezbollah to rule their lives. I'm speaking primarily of the Northern Lebanese (Christians), and not the Southern Lebanese (Shiite). I guess the only saving grace with my family is they've never hosted the Olympics, because that seems to be the death penalty these days with some.

Boy I know Hugo Chavez better hope Venezuela never gets a shot at hosting................

[editor]

Maybe the Chian Web Sensor (I mean Editor) can start another thread to control the conversation for you.

When you're losing an argument, the proper thing to do is to open your mind and try to understand what other people are saying. If you can't do that, then the adult thing to do is to walk away. Resorting to name calling because you have an indefensible position is not warranted.

[editor]

Why did the governement issue guides for citizens to instruct them not to spit in the street, cut in line and a host of other odd behaviors?

Because it's a different culture. If every place was like home, there would be no reason to go anywhere. I've seen plenty of those things happen in Houston, too. It would be nice if people were reminded of proper manners.

5,000 years and what do they have to show for it?

Not sure what that has to do with anything. Some kind of non sequitur.

FYI - The smog in Bejing is lovely today. Check out Brian Williams' broadcast on the nightly news.

A strawman attack. Can't make any headway in the main discussion so you throw something else in there to divert attention from the fact that you refuse to admit you're wrong. And I don't think anyone in Houston is in a position to criticize the air quality in anyone else's city.

Human rights abuses alone should have prevented China from ever hosting the games.

And that's where you forget your history. The Games are not a reward for a country changing its ways. The Games are a tool for causing that change. The 1988 Olympics was instrumental in changing South Korea from a military dictatorship to a democracy. China is a much bigger project, but is a vastly different place today than it was seven years ago when the games were awarded.

[editor]

So the word "communist" is all there is to communism? I think not. Today's China is one of the least communist countries on earth. People have to pay for almost everything. The state just tells them which web sites they can't visit.

You're very right -- today's Chinese communism is vastly different from communism in 1915 Russia or 1950's/60's China. It's a whole new ball game. They're making reforms left and right. But some other people in this thread are still living in the past.

Still, while communist China isn't the same Communist China my parents knew, it is still a communist nation. But again you're right -- China's "Communism Lite" is a long way from North Korea or the old Soviet days.

Who do we have left for communist states thee days? North Korea, China (Diet communism), and...?

There are lots of good commentary on China lately. These people must be "lost"! How dare they bring up reality?

Don't be fooled. China hasn't changed

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...china.pollution

Chinese political prisoners 'worse-off' in Games lead-up

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08...e=olympics/2008

China's Olympic dazzle has its dark side

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jh...8/08/do0806.xml

Pointing out the bad things in a society doesn't mean there aren't good things.

People are thrown in jail and left to rot for years without a trial in... America! People are charged with crimes they didn't commit, are tried by a jury, and spend decades in jail in.... America!

But I'm not going to pretend that there isn't good in America just because there is also injustice.

Chinese reform will take time. 5,000 years of history and 1.3 billion people can't be changed with the flick of a switch. Heck, you, a well-educated middle-class Texan, can't even change your mind in this discussion despite the overwhelming evidence that runs contrary to your position. How do you expect a billion poorly educated people living in poverty to change their entire system in a couple of years?

[editor]

I dated a gal that had lived there for over a year. There's not the slightest doubt that they have come (and are going) a long way, or that the coastal cities have quite a few really attractive areas. There are a tremendous number of wealthy Chinese people. But if only by virtue of its population levels, that tremendous number doesn't really mean much for the many hundreds of millions that still live in squalor. She told stories about how the widow from which she rented a room would still eat cockroaches from time to time, about defecation in the streets, etc. And the government still was not totally comfortable with the prospect of unrestricted travel by foreigners into many rural areas.

Yeah, poverty is going to be a big hurdle for the Chinese. China has more people living in abject poverty than the United States has people.

Travel in rural areas is a great example of the institutional changes the country faces. Many of the hassles and problems aren't official policy of the central government -- they're caused by local po-dunk sheriffs and politicians flexing their muscles or pretending it's still the old days. It's like when you get pulled over by a cop in small town Louisiana -- you really don't know what to expect. There's official policy, and then there's whatever mood the local law might be in that day. Of course, it's a lot worse in China, but it's interesting to see in the last three or four years how the average people are actually taking this on. They're going to court and SUING corrupt officials in their towns. And they're winning on occasion. For the regular populace to go from subservient workers of the government to actually using that government to affect change is really a remarkable cultural shift. Can you imagine if people in American towns started suing crappy city council members... and winning?!

Police the world or be policed...

The option is yours.

The world is not black and white. It is many shades of gray.

[livincinco]

Try telling Taiwan that. China wouldn't even let them fly their own flag at the olympic opening ceremony.

The same issue would have occurred in Korea in 1988 except North Korea boycotted the Games.

Don't forget that Taiwan, also known as the Republic of China, has a formal policy that states that they are the legitimate ruling party for mainland China.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Up early this morning Wayne, and on a roll I see.

Some people just will not learn nor bend. They've never set foot in the country and think they have it all figured out.

I love the statement about someone being stabbed and his wife wounded, meaning China is not safe. How many people were killed robbed and wounded in Houston Last night. I'm will to bet the Trauma Center at Ben Taub would be able to let you know.

Let's see: Here's just a few local headlines from the past few days......

A mother and her son were robbed at gunpoint inside their northwest Harris County home.

A woman's body was found in a southwest Houston bayou Thursday afternoon.

One person was killed and another was wounded in a shooting at a southeast Houston apartment complex early Thursday.

Neighbors in the Quail Valley Apartment complex in Missouri City awoke to news of a murder Thursday morning. But it was the details of what was done to the victim's body after his death that shocked them, Police said the victim's body appeared to be covered with gasoline and set on fire in one of the complex's courtyards. When police arrived, the man's body was still burning, and they put him out with a nearby garden hose.

A man's body was found in north Houston late Wednesday.

Looks like Houston should get any games either. Sorry Coog

[plumber2]

(This one mostly doesn't apply to Texas, but...) In my last job we were not free to hire or promote the best person for certain jobs. We were required to retain and promote the people who had been with the union longest. In China, businesses are free to hire the best person for the job, and people are free to be rewarded for hard work rather than laziness. In many American states, you hire the person some union (which is not even a government agency) tells you to. Not the person you need or want.

Why does one always have to throw in the "anti union comments" when they try to make a point about our economy. The last time I checked, the american workforce was less than 12% unionized. Do you even know one person that belongs to a union?

[Mark F. Barnes]

I actually know quite a few FWIW.....

[Jeebus]

So you're only real gripe is they are hosting the Olympics and nothing else, because that's the only reason you are "focusing on them accordingly." Well your beef is with the IOC not the Chinese.

Why don't you say what you really mean. Because IMHO I just think you hate the Chinese, and are using the Olympics as an excuse and a cover story for that hate. That's what I am gathering from all this. And hey that's your right to hate whoever you want, I am sure my wife and in-laws are probably not too much further down your list from the Chinese, and as far as that goes my kids too I guess. The Lebanese people have never hosted the Olympics, but they have kicked the hell out of a few Syrians, and refuse to allow Hezbollah to rule their lives. I'm speaking primarily of the Northern Lebanese (Christians), and not the Southern Lebanese (Shiite). I guess the only saving grace with my family is they've never hosted the Olympics, because that seems to be the death penalty these days with some.

Watch you're subtly calling a xenophobe. I have nothing against Chinese people. You however, are correct that my beef should be with the IOC. But in this case the IOC has put the spotlight on China, allowed them to sweep all their trash under the rug, and expect the world to turn a blind eye.

And just because you married to someone of a different ethnicity or race doesn't mean you get to wave their race card around either. I can tell you this because my wife is of a different ethnicity as well.

Don't forget that Taiwan, also known as the Republic of China, has a formal policy that states that they are the legitimate ruling party for mainland China.

No, it's the other way around. China, aka the PRC states that they hold the claim to Taiwan. Taiwan (and its ROC party) honor no such claim.

No one has yet to reply about the atrocities in Tibet.

[memebag]

You're very right -- today's Chinese communism is vastly different from communism in 1915 Russia or 1950's/60's China. It's a whole new ball game. They're making reforms left and right. But some other people in this thread are still living in the past.

Still, while communist China isn't the same Communist China my parents knew, it is still a communist nation. But again you're right -- China's "Communism Lite" is a long way from North Korea or the old Soviet days.

Who do we have left for communist states thee days? North Korea, China (Diet communism), and...?

Cuba! They're kickin' it old school, and Venezuela keeps getting closer every day.

I see nothing in China today that warrants calling it "communist". They've kept a lot of the Stalin-esque centralized control machinery in place, but economically and socially they've abandoned Marx. The state provides nothing for most of its people.

I've been to China. I've got nothing against the Chinese people. Their government offends me on a deep level, but replacing it with western-style democracy would be catastrophic. In the opening ceremonies, there was a part with kids dressed in the costumes of the 56 officially recognized ethnic minorities where they all looked like they love each other. They don't. The strong central government isn't just suppressing free speech, it's also holding back a blood bath that dwarfs Balkanization.

(This one mostly doesn't apply to Texas, but...) In my last job we were not free to hire or promote the best person for certain jobs. We were required to retain and promote the people who had been with the union longest. In China, businesses are free to hire the best person for the job, and people are free to be rewarded for hard work rather than laziness. In many American states, you hire the person some union (which is not even a government agency) tells you to. Not the person you need or want.

Ack. I can't believe you're defending labor practices in China with the word "freedom". Yes, people are free to work long hours for low pay with no health benefits, or free to go back to the farm and try not to starve. China needs unions more than any place on earth. The workers are prevented from improving their working conditions by their own government.

Why does one always have to throw in the "anti union comments" when they try to make a point about our economy. The last time I checked, the american workforce was less than 12% unionized. Do you even know one person that belongs to a union?

Yeah, my dad was in IATSE. I'm not a big union supporter (neither was he), but you can't ignore how unions improved the life of most US citizens. 40 hour work week, child labor laws, all that jazz came from unions. China needs them.

[memebag]

No, it's the other way around.

No, it's both ways around. Both the PRC and the ROC claim they are the only China. Both stick their fingers in their ears and say "la-la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you", but one says it louder.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Watch you're subtly calling a xenophobe. I have nothing against Chinese people. You however, are correct that my beef should be with the IOC. But in this case the IOC has put the spotlight on China, allowed them to sweep all their trash under the rug, and expect the world to turn a blind eye.

And just because you married to someone of a different ethnicity or race doesn't mean you get to wave their race card around either. I can tell you this because my wife is of a different ethnicity as well.

Jeebus, no one called you a xenophobe tough guy, allodoxaphobe possibly, maybe even suffering from prosophobia or sinophobia, but I never called you a xenophobe. However before you get to talking too tough, it might be wise to catch a good case of megalophobia, and be done with it. If I thought you were a xenophobe, I'd come right out and say it, I am not shy about the way I feel, nor do I care to be PC in everything I say. You got off on your tirade about the Chinese Government and the fact that they got the chance to host the Olympics, and I really am just trying to make sense of your rant, and what direction you are coming from. I don't know if your job was outsourced to the Chinese, or you simply don't like the food, or you are just a passionate Olympic follower, that just can't get past this years games and their location. You bounce around trying to push buttons, and at times you make great conversation. But then you squat and piss in the entire subject and start the tough guy crap, which is such a waste by the way, I start to get bored with it. But then you accuse me of playing a race card, well Jeebus you are officially off the reservation, no pun intended. I can consider the source on that one....

Either talk about the Olympics in the Olympic thread, or talk about your bucketlist with the Chinese Government in this one, but please quit intertwining the two, it's getting old, and that's the reason Wayne split the two up.

If I hurt your feelings or got your shorts in a wad, I apologize, sincerely.

[livincinco]

No, it's both ways around. Both the PRC and the ROC claim they are the only China. Both stick their fingers in their ears and say "la-la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you", but one says it louder.

That's right. You might also remember that Taiwan was a one party government until 1996 and didn't elect a president from a second party until 2000.

BTW, I'm not trying to go negative on Taiwan, just trying to point out the "many shades of grey" as editor put it.

[MidtownCoog]

And that's where you forget your history. The Games are not a reward for a country changing its ways. The Games are a tool for causing that change. The 1988 Olympics was instrumental in changing South Korea from a military dictatorship to a democracy. China is a much bigger project, but is a vastly different place today than it was seven years ago when the games were awarded.

Now you almost admit the truth:

China is a mess and the games are a carrot to make them change.

How dare we demand they change their ways?

The same issue would have occurred in Korea in 1988 except North Korea boycotted the Games.

Don't forget that Taiwan, also known as the Republic of China, has a formal policy that states that they are the legitimate ruling party for mainland China.

And don't forget the US Congress is mandated to protect Taiwan if China attacks.

[webdude]

Now you almost admit the truth:

China is a mess and the games are a carrot to make them change.

How dare we demand they change their ways?

And don't forget the US Congress is mandated to protect Taiwan if China attacks.

Seems our attempts to make them change always make them more defiant. How dare they not listen to us. Don't they know what happened to Iraq?

[Jeebus]

Jeebus, no one called you a xenophobe tough guy. If I thought you were a xenophobe, I'd come right out and say it, I am not shy about the way I feel, nor do I care to be PC in everything I say.

Oh really? I must have dreamt this one then:

IMHO I just think you hate the Chinese..

If I hurt your feelings or got your shorts in a wad, I apologize, sincerely.

It seems like your feelings are the only involved by those long winded posts about Lebanon and me being a sinophobia tough-guy who is off the reservation, etc, etc..

I could care less personally, but apology accepted.

[MidtownCoog]

Olympic Fireworks Faked For TV

Sky News, UK - 2 hours ago

Parts of the spectacular Beijing Olympics opening ceremony were faked, it has emerged. The global television audience of more than three billion people ...

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-New...dded%2BFor%2BTV

[Daniepwils]

American squalor and poverty is extremely low compared to the 100's of millions of Chinese who live like that everyday. There are what, a billion+ people in China, most of which work for almost nothing. The only reason their economy is better than most right now is because they can get away with treating employees like slaves who work for nothing and have no benefits -- which will then of course have the companies there turning massive profits.

As long as America stays a "consumer" country China will continue to profit enormously. I hate to say it, but America and China both need each other right now. They need us buy all of the crap that they make and we need them to continue to buy our debt.