Records everywhere!

[houstonmacbro]

If you're watching all this going around you wouldn't that make you careless?

I'd say that's an alert driver. I often like to look into people's cars and see what they're doing too.

But I am a people-watcher so not sure it is the same thing.

[Pumapayam]

Ford sales down 28%, across the board, not just SUVs

• Ford Motor reported that its U.S. sales tumbled 28% in June

• Ford, the No. 3 automaker in terms of U.S. sales, saw sales of its SUVs plunge by more than half and pickups and other trucks fell more than a third.

  And my favorite quote
  

• But Ford apparently didn't have the car models buyers were looking for . . .

Honestly, Ford quality has been a issue regardless (still have bad memories of the Aerostar), but it took high fuel cost to show people that their fuel efficiency efforts are still stuck in 2000. Come on Ford, the Escape is only an assisted hybrid.

Get cracking on those new fuel efficient/hybrid models. I want to believe in Made in America again.

Japan is cleaning up.

[crunchtastic]

US car makers used to do sub-compacts very well. I remember the oil crisis of the 70s as a kid, and going to the dealerships to shop the Chevy Chevettes and Ford Fiestas. We didn't buy one, but my dad came very close to buying a subcompanct as primary transport for 2 adults and 2 kids. He just kept driving his beater FIAT 124, which wasn't much bigger. (Later he upgraded to the FIAT 131, the car that taught me how to drive.....ah, memories.)

There was a brief comeback here with GM and the Metro (cap'n crunch drove his to its natural death, and still talks about getting 50 mpg).

People in the ROW never gave small cars up, and Americans abandoned them for vehicles that wouldn't even fit in the garage of the average 70s house. Is it Car Karma?

[TJones]

Careless drivers are the worse. I think they are emboldened when they get in Big SUVs. Kinda off topic, but on the way back from Galveston the other day, I guess I was going to slowly. This dude passed me on the right (I actually thought he was exiting I45) and then zipped in front of me (nearly hitting me on the right front side).

Why are people so impatient?

If you were in the far left lane, then YOU were in the wrong lane. If someone has to pass you on the right, you are obviously too slow, move over out of the far left as a courtesy.

Ford sales down 28%, across the board, not just SUVs

• 
  
• 
  And my favorite quote
  
• 
  

Honestly, Ford quality has been a issue regardless (still have bad memories of the Aerostar), but it took high fuel cost to show people that their fuel efficiency efforts are still stuck in 2000. Come on Ford, the Escape is only an assisted hybrid.

Get cracking on those new fuel efficient/hybrid models. I want to believe in Made in America again.

Japan is cleaning up.

Japan is WHAT ? Toyota sales are down 21.4 % genius. Toyota trucks alone are down 41%, and their cars are down 9%, the only thing they are cleaning up is the dust settling on all their Tundras and Sequoias at the dealerships. In the future, TRY to tell both sides will you ?

[Pumapayam]

Japan is WHAT ? Toyota sales are down 21.4 % genius. Toyota trucks alone are down 41%, and their cars are down 9%, the only thing they are cleaning up is the dust settling on all their Tundras and Sequoias at the dealerships. In the future, TRY to tell both sides will you ?

Honda is supposedly going to have a marginal increase.

My comment was about the lack of domestic hybrids. Comparing the big Japanese 3 (Toyota, Nissan, Honda) versus the American 3 (General Motors, Ford, Chysler):

Japan Hybrids in America 12 Unique models

• Honda Insight (discontinued)
  
• Toyota Prius (3rd generation coming 2009)
  
• Toyota Camry Hybrid
  
• Toyota Highlander/Lexus RX 400h Hybrid
  
• Toyota Sienna
  
• Lexus GS 450h
  
• Lexus LS600hL
  
• Honda Civic Hybrid
  
• Honda Accord Hybrid (discontinued)
  
• Honda FCX Clarity* (2009 *fuel cell)
  
• Honda Fit (2009)
  
• Nissan Altima
  

Domestic Hybrids 6 Unique models, 2 of which are mild hybrids

• Saturn Vue Green Line/Equinox Mild Hybrid
  
• Saturn Aura Green Line/Malibu Mild Hybrid
  
• GMC Yukon/GMC Sierra/Chevrolet Tahoe/Chevrolet Silverado/Cadillac Escalade Hybrid
  
• Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute/Mercury Mariner Hybrid
  
• Ford Fusion/Mecury Milan (2009)
  
• Dodge Durango
  

I'd say America slacked off a bit with being inovative. Most of the models are clones between different brands.

[TJones]

Guess how many Nissan Altima Hybrids were delivered here in Texas, Puma . In fact well over 2/3s of that list don't make it anywhere near to your house.

Unique models ? Tahoe and Sierra 1500 don't share their chassis', one is a truck one is an SUV. Your info is skewed Puma.

USA has 15 models available to choose from, over only 10 Jap models. You contradict yourself by using 2 models that are no longer in production for the Japanese so there are indeed NOT 12. There is no slacking on the big 3's part.

[houstonmacbro]

If you were in the far left lane, then YOU were in the wrong lane. If someone has to pass you on the right, you are obviously too slow, move over out of the far left as a courtesy.

Japan is WHAT ? Toyota sales are down 21.4 % genius. Toyota trucks alone are down 41%, and their cars are down 9%, the only thing they are cleaning up is the dust settling on all their Tundras and Sequoias at the dealerships. In the future, TRY to tell both sides will you ?

I was in the right lane. The slow lane.

I was going the speed limit and the speed that traffic allowed.

[TJones]

I was in the right lane. The slow lane.

I was going the speed limit and the speed that traffic allowed.

So, he passed you on the shoulder, or did he pull one of those passing in the get-off lane type of deals. You didn't explain it clearly enough for me I guess. As long as you were in any lane but the far left, you are clearly in the right.

[houstonmacbro]

So, he passed you on the shoulder, or did he pull one of those passing in the get-off lane type of deals. You didn't explain it clearly enough for me I guess. As long as you were in any lane but the far left, you are clearly in the right.

He zipped into the exit ramp lane and then back into my lane.

[Pumapayam]

Guess how many Nissan Altima Hybrids were delivered here in Texas, Puma . In fact well over 2/3s of that list don't make it anywhere near to your house.

Regarding the Altima I am aware it is only in certain regions currently, you can still purchase it if you want the expense. My post was not about Japanese models offered Texas. . .

Unique models? Tahoe and Sierra 1500 don't share their chassis', one is a truck one is an SUV. Your info is skewed Puma.

All of those models share many common parts regardless if they are SUVs or trucks. The effort to distinguish a Tahoe and Silverado is negligable. . .

If you want to debate it read further

USA has 15 models 7 clones available to choose from, over only 10 Jap models. You contradict yourself by using 2 models that are no longer in production for the Japanese so there are indeed NOT 12. There is no slacking on the big 3's part.

Okay fine, make it 7 clones, not 15 models

I don't contradict myself, I labeled them as discontinued, I think that was pretty clear. In my eyes they are still drivable after they have been discontinued. . .

Having 10 unique Japanese models over 7 domestic models clones is still impressive, considering their introduction date and that 2 of the domestic models clones are only mild hybrids.

Honda introduced a compact in 1999 and a full size sedan in 2004 and was well ahead of the domestic brands first car based effort in 2007 with the Aura, a mild hybrid.

Good responses.

[memebag]

People in the ROW never gave small cars up, and Americans abandoned them for vehicles that wouldn't even fit in the garage of the average 70s house. Is it Car Karma?

It's an evolutionary arms race. Small cars are safe from other small cars, but not from big cars. If everyone drove small cars we would all be safer, but if one person drives a big car they get an advantage over everyone else. This puts pressure on the system to move to successively larger and larger cars. It's very much like the evolution of venom and venom resistance in biological organisms. Both ultimately capped by energy costs.

[TJones]

You are so precious Puma. You even added a couple of cars that aren't out yet. So, I'll go ahead and add the Chevy Volt to the American's list. I will also add the EV1, since they are still driveable even though they aren't on the market anymore. Chrysler Aspen Hybrid (2009).

There is a huge difference between an SUV and a Truck, if you don't know the difference then just say so. Also, don't act like Toyota and Lexus don't "share parts".

BTW,GM was the innovator, when they designed the EV1 and put it on the road in 1996. Do some research son !

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, because I am sure you pick a car by how many cup holders it has and if you look "cute" in it.

Since you are aware that your list contains vehicles that you can't go get from your local Japanese car dealers here in town, then your list holds no water, whereas I can go to any Domestic dealer in town and buy one on the lot as soon as they come out, because they will be on the trucks delivering to Texas as part of their regular inventory at no extra charge. I am sure you go to California all the time to buy your cars though.

[houstonmacbro]

It's an evolutionary arms race. Small cars are safe from other small cars, but not from big cars. If everyone drove small cars we would all be safer, but if one person drives a big car they get an advantage over everyone else. This puts pressure on the system to move to successively larger and larger cars. It's very much like the evolution of venom and venom resistance in biological organisms. Both ultimately capped by energy costs.

But isn't it also true that now --because of rising gas prices-- cars are devolving (at least in size) so theoretically the roads (at least for small car owners/drivers) is getting safer.

[memebag]

But isn't it also true that now --because of rising gas prices-- cars are devolving (at least in size) so theoretically the roads (at least for small car owners/drivers) is getting safer.

Maybe. We'll see what happens to fuel prices over the next few years.

[houstonmacbro]

Maybe. We'll see what happens to fuel prices over the next few years.

I'd like to see rickshaws and scooters on I45. That would be COOL!!!!

[sevfiv]

BTW,GM was the innovator, when they designed the EV1 and put it on the road in 1996.

And look how that turned out...from destroying almost all of the cars in use to Chevron/Texaco having patents on the batteries

[Pumapayam]

You even added a couple of cars that aren't out yet. So, I'll go ahead and add the Chevy Volt to the American's list.

List was just up to known 2009 model introductions. There are plenty of 2010 Japanese based models coming out as well. Feel free to fill out both sides through 2010 if you want to make a valid point.

I will also add the EV1, since they are still driveable even though they aren't on the market anymore virtually nonexistant.

Heard of the movie, Who Killed the Electric Car?.

GM attempted reclaim every last EV1 and dispose of them. A few vehicles were disabled and given to museums and universities, but almost all were found to have been crushed.

Unless you had special privileges, likely not, these were only for lease, and most all of them are off the road now. Unlike the Honda Insight or Accord Hybrid, which was not a lease and was not called back to Honda after being discontinued. Yes the EV1 was a great idea but it does not exist outside a museum or university. Epic fail.

Chrysler Aspen Hybrid (2009).

Dodge Durango clone. What an effort!

There is a huge difference between an SUV and a Truck, if you don't know the difference then just say so.

I accepted the stance regarding the GMC Yukon/GMC Sierra/Chevrolet Tahoe/Chevrolet Silverado/Cadillac Escalade Hybrid clones

GMC Yukon/Chevrolet Tahoe/Cadillac Escalade clones and GMC Sierra/Chevrolet Silverado clones

So that made my domestic list go from 6 to 7 which I mentioned.

Also, don't act like Toyota and Lexus don't "share parts".

Toyota Highlander/Lexus RX 400h Hybrid are clones, just like the domestic models I pointed out. But the Camry (mid size sedan), Prius, Lexus LS (full size sedan) upcoming Sienna are unique models, not badge engineered clones.

BTW,GM was the innovator, when they designed the EV1 and put it on the road in 1996. Do some research son !

Yes, they innovated quitting eco friendly projects ahead of their time. It's sad, because I thought it was a great idea. Too bad they don't operate outside a musuem or university. Useless now. Toyota had the RAV4 EV in 1997, which almost had the same fate as the EV1, luckily the majority of those were not crushed and allowed to be purchased after the lease was up. EV1's were only leased.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, because I am sure you pick a car by how many cup holders it has and if you look "cute" in it.

I already know I look good, don't need a car to enhance that.

Since you are aware that your list contains vehicles that you can't go get from your local Japanese car dealers here in town, then your list holds no water, whereas I can go to any Domestic dealer in town and buy one on the lot as soon as they come out, because they will be on the trucks delivering to Texas as part of their regular inventory at no extra charge. I am sure you go to California all the time to buy your cars though.

Nissan Altima and Honda FCX Clarity come off the list because you insist on complete nationwide availability.

EV1 comes off since it does not exist outside anything relevant, or is cancelled out by the RAV4 EV.

Volt is in 2010, and my list does not go beyond that.

Aspen is a Durango clone.

Still leaves 8 Japanese models you can buy versus 7 domestic models.

You are so precious Puma.

I know , sarcasm noted, but does not change the fact Japanese companies are ahead of the efficiency curve.

Japan wins.

Enjoy your domestic badge engineered clones and mild hybrids.

[TJones]

I clearly pointed out that the EV1 is NOT on the market. Just as YOU were putting cars up that don't exist.

GM had the EV1 on the road for 3 years, until '99. The costs of making such a vehicle was determined to NOT be profitable, and in terms of enviromentally friendly, you and Ed Bagely still fail to comprehend what it takes to make Nickel Cadium and Nickel Methyl-Hydride batteries, or what their replacement costs are, Fossil fuels WIN !

Tell us what is wrong with Big 3 designed hybrids. The Malibu is 100x better looking than the Prius.

Japan is ahead of the efficiency curve on their fossil fuel using sub compact cars, not on Hybrid SUVs and midsize sedans, and you know how we Americans love our SUVs.

I will conceed this, the Prius is THE most wanted car right now because of it's MPG, but the list is not accurate as the supply and demand is way off. Toyota isn't pumping these out as fast as they can. They make them as they sell them, so there is NO stock of them. Guess what the SECOND most wanted car is.........Lexus GX470, with a whopping 14 Mpg average. SO, their efficency curve kinda gets thrown a curve by this gas guzzler, doesn't it.

So Japan has one car more. Yeah, it's a virtual slaughter.

[Pumapayam]

I clearly pointed out that the EV1 is NOT on the market.

Yes and you also pointed out it is still drivable, but for who? It's a display and research model only for museums and universities. Very useless for the general public. Epic Fail. (I think I got that phrase from another disgruntled HAIF-er I like it! )

GM had the EV1 on the road for 3 years, until '99. The costs of making such a vehicle was determined to NOT be profitable, and in terms of enviromentally friendly, you and Ed Bagely still fail to comprehend what it takes to make Nickel Cadium and Nickel Methyl-Hydride batteries, or what their replacement costs are, Fossil fuels WIN !

Improved batteries in smaller packages that output more power evolved since then. The only thing fossil fuels are winning is our expendable income.

Tell us what is wrong with Big 3 designed hybrids. The Malibu is 100x better looking than the Prius.

I prefer quality and efficiency over style that will eventually be dated regardless in 5 years.

The Big 3 designed hybrids are weak. Chosing a mild hybrid as the first sedan is not much of an effort, and the first domestic hybrid SUV, the Ford Escape is based off of the Toyota Prius patent.

Japan is ahead of the efficiency curve on their fossil fuel using sub compact cars, not on Hybrid SUVs and midsize sedans, and you know how we Americans love our SUVs.

I'd say we are on equal footing with SUV's, but the current crop of domestic sedans don't cut it. They are mild hybrids. Maybe the Fusion/Milan will change that.

So Japan has one car more. Yeah, it's a virtual slaughter.

My point proven.

[TJones]

What smaller packaged battery Puma, please provide a reference. What's the newest battery now.

Again, what is weak about them ? What design flaw do they have ?

Whether they be "clones" or "unique" models, the fact remains that American car options outweigh Japanese options by 1 and a half. Puma, you can turn a blind eye and twist it anyway you deem necessary in order to make you feel good. NUFF SAID !!!

[Pumapayam]

What smaller packaged battery Puma, please provide a reference. What's the newest battery now.

FCX Evolution

2007 New fuel stack is 20% smaller and 30% lighter than its predecessor.

About a month prior, the Honda website for the FCX was still in the concept phase and it had showcased 3 evolution stages of the battery with size and power output changes since 1999, it is since changed to the production FCX website and I can't find it anymore, but the summary on the evolution link represents some of the same info, just generalized.

Update with some other numbers

Whether they be "clones" or "unique" models, the fact remains that American car options outweigh Japanese options by 1 and a half. Puma, you can turn a blind eye and twist it anyway you deem necessary in order to make you feel good. NUFF SAID !!!

If you call over using badge engineering to create different hybrid models clones as more options, okay, I call it being more lazy.

[Pumapayam]

And here we have Chrysler.

Down 36%

No one is falling for the gimmicky $2.99 gas promotion.

[houstonmacbro]

And here we have Chrysler.

Down 36%

No one is falling for the gimmicky $2.99 gas promotion.

This is bad. The doomers and gloomers say the economy still has a LONG way to drop before there is even a chance of it getting better.

[Pumapayam]

Sad, sadder, and just plain unfair!

20 mpg SUV hybrid not worth the upgrade.

And I can't believe that they are going to raise the price of subcompact car rentals?

[houstonmacbro]

Sad, sadder, and just plain unfair!

20 mpg SUV hybrid not worth the upgrade.

And I can't believe that they are going to raise the price of subcompact car rentals?

Trust me ... IF I were in the market for a minivan, I wouldn't be looking at one that costs $45,000!!!! I think car companies are out of touch with regular Americans.

[RedScare]

I think car companies are out of touch with regular Americans.

Bragging that your hybrid gets 20 mpg? Yeah, that's how you stay in touch with Americans. You have to wonder what's in the coffee they are drinking when they spend tens of millions of dollars designing a vehicle that improves fuel economy from horrendous to merely crappy, and then thinks anyone would pay 50 grand for it.

[houstonmacbro]

Bragging that your hybrid gets 20 mpg? Yeah, that's how you stay in touch with Americans. You have to wonder what's in the coffee they are drinking when they spend tens of millions of dollars designing a vehicle that improves fuel economy from horrendous to merely crappy, and then thinks anyone would pay 50 grand for it.

That might have worked in the 80s with rich, suburban soccer moms, but even they are feeling the pinch these days. Was watching something about how everyone from the merely wealthy to the rich are starting to cut back.

[sevfiv]

But looks can be deceiving. Mr. Pelmear's 21-year-old pony car has enough technological innovation to quadruple the classic Mustang's original gas mileage while almost doubling its available horsepower.

That's 80 miles per gallon and 400 horsepower, folks. And the 48-year-old electronics engineer and master mechanic is not done yet.

The third-generation automotive tinkerer hopes that next year his Mustang - more specifically its engine - will help him win the $10 million Progressive Automotive X Prize: a "race" to find an affordable, marketable automobile that gets at least 100 miles per gallon, or its equivalent.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=73322557293591

KPRC reports 110 mpg:

http://www.click2houston.com/automotive/16768626/detail.html

[jm1fd]

FCX Evolution

About a month prior, the Honda website for the FCX was still in the concept phase and it had showcased 3 evolution stages of the battery with size and power output changes since 1999, it is since changed to the production FCX website and I can't find it anymore, but the summary on the evolution link represents some of the same info, just generalized.

Update with some other numbers

If you call over using badge engineering to create different hybrid models clones as more options, okay, I call it being more lazy.

Thanks for playing, but a fuel cell is not a battery.

Also, I believe it is still 7 to 7. You left out the domestically produced Tesla Roadster.

[houstonmacbro]

I just saw a news report and they mentioned the depressing car sales. They did a short piece on the Volt, but said it will be another 2 years (minimum) before we see that car in production.

WTF?!?!