Retail Secrets Revealed

[Pumapayam]

I thought this would be fun to see what part time jobs people had that can reveal some hidden secrets that customers never were told.

I used to work at the Speedo Authentic Fitness store in the late 90's early 2000's when it was opened in the Galleria II section, just in front of Saks Fifth Ave, and across from Just Add Water. It has since closed around 2003 I believe.

It was a small store, so the employees had many roles, one of which was unpacking shipments that had new athletic wear and swim suits and tag and hang them.

We consistantly received new style lines that already had price tags attached to them.

Example: Pants were $25.00.

Week after week, these "new" styles would instantly be on sale for 20%, 25%, or 30% at random, but it was never not on sale, in fact, during my 3 years there, we never charged full price once for these new styles as they arrive.

So those same pants would really be sold to the customer for $19.99.

So even though the customer thought they were getting a $5 price break, they were paying what was intending, and the real price Speedo wanted to charge was the red tag amount the whole time.

[tanith27]

Back in the late 80's as a teen I worked summers at 7-11 up on Vancouver Island and was responsible for ordering the supplies for the Big Gulp and Slurpee machines. Granted these prices were circa 1989 in Canadian Dollars, but the large carton of coke syrup cost $20.00 (with heavy summer use, this carton would last 1-2 days in the summer). The CO2 tank was $10. This 30 dollars per day resulted in thousands of dollars in sales (not including the equipment, of course) from the locals as they came and went each day. The true cost, as you may have speculated, was the cup. That ran between (approx) 4 and 7 cents each and soft drink/slurpee sales were inventoried by cup counting. So, yes, the cup cost more than the contents.

Also, as an aside, slurpee machines funk up pretty quickly. I pulled some nasty stuff out of the syrup containers in the back of those things. If they're not broken down and fully cleaned at least once per month, you can expect slime in the slurpee machine.

[editor]

In the 80's I worked in a grocery store dairy department. One of the last jobs at night was to go through the eggs and "recycle" them. If there was a carton with a couple of broken eggs, the unbroken eggs would be moved to a new carton and combined with unbroken eggs from other cartons to create a carton of 12 unbroken eggs.

In theory, this means an egg that refused to break, but happened to be in cartons of eggs that did break, could continue being sold for weeks past its expiration date.

[Pumapayam]

In the 80's I worked in a grocery store dairy department. One of the last jobs at night was to go through the eggs and "recycle" them.

On a similar note, another part time job that I held at a local club, a name that I do not wish to disclose since they are still in business, in it's early days used to "marry" bottles at the end of each shift, or the process of combining the same brands of alcohol into a common bottle to create a fuller bottle.

Liquor bottles, whether two that were about half empty combined into a whole one, or a bottle with a few shots left was combined to tossed it out. For some reason TABC frowned upon it, but I really thought it was a great idea to make sure that the next shift had semi-full bottles to pour from.

I know for a fact that they have since changed their method and have stopped "marrying" likely to avoid being fined, but in the early days, they did ask the staff to do this.

On a side note, Maraschino cherries were really the most disgusting thing anyone could eat.

[ssullivan]

I worked in retail for years growing up, thanks to my family's hardware store. Similar to tanith27's comments about the mark up on soft drinks, the mark up on certain items we sold was incredible. We would purchase huge quantities of certain items commonly used to repair toilets and minor plumbing leaks at super low wholesale prices several times a year at markets, and then sell them at our normal retail price, which of course increased our profits. Batteries and light bulbs were the same deal. The interesting thing was our prices were still often a lot lower than those at competitors, including so-called discount places like Wal-Mart, and big box home stores like Lowe's and Home Depot. They were typically buying these same items at an even larger wholesale discount than we were, and selling them for 10-20% more at retail than us. So we could do something like run Duracell batteries at 40% off, and still make a decent profit on each item.

There were also a number of closeout specials we'd take advantage of several times a year. I remember we once got a killer deal on bulk 25 ft. tape measures for something like 75

[cottonmather0]

In the 80's I worked in a grocery store dairy department. One of the last jobs at night was to go through the eggs and "recycle" them. If there was a carton with a couple of broken eggs, the unbroken eggs would be moved to a new carton and combined with unbroken eggs from other cartons to create a carton of 12 unbroken eggs.

In theory, this means an egg that refused to break, but happened to be in cartons of eggs that did break, could continue being sold for weeks past its expiration date.

Hmmm...

[Pumapayam]

Neat website about food packaging changes, as in less product, same/different package, same price.

mouseprint.org

Some recent examples, click on the images for the article relating to each product..

While in my material science course back in A&M, a guest speaker from FritoLay was presenting to the class was called out by one of the students during the Q&A about similar issues with potato chip bags losing weight. Way to screw the customer.

Just raise the price to continue your business instead of being sneaky like this.

[sheeats]

In the same vein as Puma:

Wrigley brags about "slimmer packaging"; actually two less sticks of gum

Brawny charges more, includes less paper towels in "new" package

These could go on all day...

In the VERY gross misconduct category of underhanded retail practices is "red" meat dyeing:

Stores are known to dye their meat red to make it look fresher than it actually is. Aside from being disgusting, the dye encourages the growth of salmonella. Niiiiice.

[TJones]

Customers don't know that "Holdback" on a new car are NOT tangible funds that the dealer has. It is simply money put into an account to let the dealer order new replacement cars.

[webdude]

Many years back,

Used to add memory to computer for $40, $50.

Charge higher for laptops.

Charge even higher for installing hard drives.

Kind of a rip off.

And if they bring in a computer suspecting there is a software problem, we usually didn't bother to check what was wrong with the computer or if it even had a problem, just restore everything and say it was a virus, and charge them for it.

And yes, we do look at your personal files and your porn, and copy it to share.

[TJones]

Many many years back,

Used to add memory to computer for $40, $50.

Charge higher for laptops.

Charge even higher for installing hard drives.

Kind of a rip off

And if they bring it in suspecting a software problem, you know with those error messages, we usually didn't bother to check what was wrong with the computer, just restore everything and say it was a virus.

ACK! I KNEW IT !!!!

[TexasVines]

Customers don't know that "Holdback" on a new car are NOT tangible funds that the dealer has. It is simply money put into an account to let the dealer order new replacement cars.

there are two types of holdback for some brands

advertising holdback (for Houston area Ford dealers ads)

and dealer holdback which is given back usually quarterly...I have seen people negotiate into dealer holdback (but there was probably dealer cash on that unit and some other money people on the floor will never know about)

inside tip selling cars blows....the customers are ignorant beyond belief and the people you work with are horrible

[Subdude]

In the same vein as Puma:

Wrigley brags about "slimmer packaging"; actually two less sticks of gum

Brawny charges more, includes less paper towels in "new" package

These could go on all day...

All subtle ways of hiding price increases.

[TJones]

there are two types of holdback for some brands

advertising holdback (for Houston area Ford dealers ads)

and dealer holdback which is given back usually quarterly...I have seen people negotiate into dealer holdback (but there was probably dealer cash on that unit and some other money people on the floor will never know about)

inside tip selling cars blows....the customers are ignorant beyond belief and the people you work with are horrible

Ok, explain what you think "advertising holdback" is.

Here is what dealer "holdback" is: http://autos.aol.com/article/general/v2/_a...118102409990001

Every internet GEEK, that I have had the displeasure of dealing with, thinks that he or she should be able to buy a car at what my company pays for it, because they read Edmunds.com, and that I should make no profit. I ask them everytime what they do for a living. I then ask them if their company let their products go for no profit, how long would they stay in business ? They shut their cakeholes at that point and realize that invoice minus rebate is a very fair deal indeed.

Why exactly does selling cars blow ? I happen to like the business.

The ones who are horrible to work with are the customers who THINK they know more than you do about the car biz. I just wish they'd get it through their thick skulls that I do it everyday, and they buy cars once every 3 to 5 years. Or, the salesmen who try to crap all the other salesmen out by saying how BAD business is, and how they aren't selling anything. These trolls eventually crawl away and get out of the business altogether as they have used up every dealer in town and finally realize that they just aren't cutout for that type of work and they sucked at it. But, they'll NEVER blame themselves for not being able to sell.

[cottonmather0]

inside tip selling cars blows....the customers are ignorant beyond belief and the people you work with are horrible

Haggling for a new (or used, but it's a slightly different process) car is one of the most fun things I can think to do, mainly because the idiots that sell cars are so used to bullying and confusing most other buyers that they are unprepared to actually have someone push back on them. Sometimes it takes a while to convey the idea that I'm not there to play games, but generally they get it around the time I either scribble all over their "4 square" drawing or get up and walk out.

I have long said that anybody who buys a car based on a price they see in a TV or radio ad is a freaking moron. Same goes for "employee pricing" and for furniture shopping.

There must be a bunch of morons out there because there are a bunch of ads on the airwaves that are expensive and obviously wouldn't be there if they didn't work.

Seriously, if anyone on HAIF needs help buying a car - any car - send me a PM and I'll give you some advice or even go help you shop myself. LOL

[houstonmacbro]

Back in the late 80's as a teen I worked summers at 7-11 up on Vancouver Island and was responsible for ordering the supplies for the Big Gulp and Slurpee machines. Granted these prices were circa 1989 in Canadian Dollars, but the large carton of coke syrup cost $20.00 (with heavy summer use, this carton would last 1-2 days in the summer). The CO2 tank was $10. This 30 dollars per day resulted in thousands of dollars in sales (not including the equipment, of course) from the locals as they came and went each day. The true cost, as you may have speculated, was the cup. That ran between (approx) 4 and 7 cents each and soft drink/slurpee sales were inventoried by cup counting. So, yes, the cup cost more than the contents.

Also, as an aside, slurpee machines funk up pretty quickly. I pulled some nasty stuff out of the syrup containers in the back of those things. If they're not broken down and fully cleaned at least once per month, you can expect slime in the slurpee machine.

Gross.

In the 80's I worked in a grocery store dairy department. One of the last jobs at night was to go through the eggs and "recycle" them. If there was a carton with a couple of broken eggs, the unbroken eggs would be moved to a new carton and combined with unbroken eggs from other cartons to create a carton of 12 unbroken eggs.

In theory, this means an egg that refused to break, but happened to be in cartons of eggs that did break, could continue being sold for weeks past its expiration date.

...and this is just foul. And bordering on illegal I would imagine?

Neat website about food packaging changes, as in less product, same/different package, same price.

mouseprint.org

Some recent examples, click on the images for the article relating to each product..

While in my material science course back in A&M, a guest speaker from FritoLay was presenting to the class was called out by one of the students during the Q&A about similar issues with potato chip bags losing weight. Way to screw the customer.

Just raise the price to continue your business instead of being sneaky like this.

Lately I've abandoned 'name brand' and gone with a lot of store brands or even generic brands. Most of them taste the same (many are actually better tasting) and cost less.

[TexasVines]

Ok, explain what you think "advertising holdback" is.

Here is what dealer "holdback" is: http://autos.aol.com/article/general/v2/_a...118102409990001

Every internet GEEK, that I have had the displeasure of dealing with, thinks that he or she should be able to buy a car at what my company pays for it, because they read Edmunds.com, and that I should make no profit. I ask them everytime what they do for a living. I then ask them if their company let their products go for no profit, how long would they stay in business ? They shut their cakeholes at that point and realize that invoice minus rebate is a very fair deal indeed.

Why exactly does selling cars blow ? I happen to like the business.

The ones who are horrible to work with are the customers who THINK they know more than you do about the car biz. I just wish they'd get it through their thick skulls that I do it everyday, and they buy cars once every 3 to 5 years. Or, the salesmen who try to crap all the other salesmen out by saying how BAD business is, and how they aren't selling anything. These trolls eventually crawl away and get out of the business altogether as they have used up every dealer in town and finally realize that they just aren't cutout for that type of work and they sucked at it. But, they'll NEVER blame themselves for not being able to sell.

I explained what advertising holdback is

it pays for the regional advertising like the ones for "Houston area Ford dealers" or "North Texas area Ford Dealers"

the ads where Ford sponsors the Cowboys and the ads that list all the regional dealers in them instead of an ad for a single dealer

and yes the web makes it worse because everyone thinks they are "informed" but they still can not do basic math and they still think that a dealer can take a car they still owe 10K on that even they know they can only sell for 5K on their own and somehow make that 5K they are upside down disappear because they are going to buy a new car

the customers are totally ignorant and the people you work with are miserable.......and miserable people to be around.....everyone lies about how much money they make at the dealer and the management is just dying for you to buy a new car or a boat so they know you are in the hole......many are divorced 2-3 times and about to get another divorce and the hours are pathetic for the money that most make.....if Texas did not require that a dealer be closed on either Sat or Sun the hours would be worse.....the back stabbing by fellow salesmen is horrible and there are always a few functioning drunks....if someone can sell cars they can sell anything and should get out and move into better products.....you work your way to floor manager and then the tower and then the dealership sells out and you are out of a job and back taking ups at a new dealer

there are WAY to many dealers now for each brand and most dealers have figured out ways to get sales down to a "mini" commission.....like using holdbacks to lower the invoice price of the car and thus lowering the margin over invoice for the salesman.....there is always the dealer or dealers in the area that are OK with 85% "mini" sales because that is how they are set up to operate and that means other dealers have to put up with the "well X is going to sell it to me for (10% less than the actual deal they have) and you have to spit out the "well why did you not already buy it".......you are in conflict with customers (most practically demand you get in a confrontation) and you are in conflict with management over something.......not worth it for the money that is made by even the best salesmen....then in management you are still overworked and you have one day off that you spend at the lake drunk trying to find wife #3-4 while your current wife is out with her friends and spending all the cash

this does not even count if you actually have a conscience and don't like seeing people put into 6-7 year loans on a car they will out grow or need to replace in 3-4 years because of family needing a bigger car or seeing people put into loan 5-8% higher than they should have to pay because they did not do their homework or seeing people offered "monthly payment amounts" that even a monkey could figure out on that model and that sticker price means they just paid a bit OVER sticker and then are paying 18% interest on a loan that is a year longer than it needs to be...and they somehow actually have good credit and a down payment

it is an industry set up for the salesman to only make good money (which is horrible money for the hours and BS you put up with) if he cheats every 3rd customer and screws a few more every month....all with next to no security if you "move up" because sometimes the owner just decides it is time to run a new game on customers because the old game has gotten old

where I worked it was showing people an actual invoice for the car (it is highly illegal to show a false invoice, but it does happen at some dealers) and then asking for only 10% over dealer invoice.....which 10% does seem like a reasonable markup to anyone, but a car buyer and on some models like an escort 10% would actually get the price OVER sticker and if anyone did go for 10% they would be paying WAY over average for that car....then you add in the back of house financing games come into play

it is an industry set up to try and beat people down and screw them especially from the salesman's perspective and pocketbook

as for actually trying to tell friends the best way to make a car deal.......90% will not listen after the first 3 minutes because it involves things like understanding the 4 square, the clean sheet of paper, holdback, dealer cash, the proper way to use the rebate, finding out their credit rating, and shopping for a loan BEFORE going to the dealer

it is not that hard to make a good deal, but the vast majority of people who still do their homework will leave out one thing to study up on and a "good" salesman will find that and really use it against them because they have "won" on all the other issues........and they still leave having paid several hundred to several thousand more than they should have

lastly there is really nothing to "move up to" because even upper management has very little security and owning a dealership is actually not that profitable for the investment and most dealers actually cash in on the land under the dealer when they finally sell and there are way to many dealer groups out there now that will kill the independent

[TJones]

TV, I think everything you just described about how the salesmen and managers in the car business can be applied to 90% of the businesses out there. It isn't reserved for the car dealers, sorry you had such a rotten experience. I've been in the car biz for 10 years, and have luckily escaped ALL the pitfalls you claim. If anything, functioning drunks and alcoholic managers would be more prevalant in the Restaurant industry, which I also managed in for 10 yrs.

Why can't you people just come in and buy for the sticker price. You don't negotiate a BigMac when you go to Mickey D's ?

[TexasVines]

TV, I think everything you just described about how the salesmen and managers in the car business can be applied to 90% of the businesses out there. It isn't reserved for the car dealers, sorry you had such a rotten experience. I've been in the car biz for 10 years, and have luckily escaped ALL the pitfalls you claim. If anything, functioning drunks and alcoholic managers would be more prevalant in the Restaurant industry, which I also managed in for 10 yrs.

Why can't you people just come in and buy for the sticker price. You don't negotiate a BigMac when you go to Mickey D's ?

because that is not how the manufacturers want it and that is not how the dealers want it and that is not how the better salesmen want it

if it was like that it would be like selling just about any other retail product or like selling real estate....and then anyone could do it for 12 bucks an hour or the pretty, dressed up, women would dominate....you should know the answer to that after being in the business for 10 years

and if you wanted that you would sell saturns.....but no one sells saturns because you don't make that extra 3 bucks an hour (averaged out) over the 12 dollar an hour senior sales guy at best buy

the dealer I worked at Middlekauff Ford in Plano was open from 9am to 10pm and had a mandatory sales meeting on Monday come in dressed to sell.....guess what "day off" most people had.....Monday.....so you are in to work at 8 am and already dressed.....there goes that day off

that is 78 hours+ a week they were open.....you were going to work at least 60 of those probably closer to 68.....the top sales guy for several years make 45K that year and top on the used side made 48 and both were probably putting in well over 68 hours a week

you will work ALL DAY EVERY HOLIDAY except Christmas and Thanksgiving and I think now some dealers have half days those days....holidays are crappy times to go to the lake ect. , but selling cars it is not like you get another day off later in the week....if not for the blue laws you would have NO days off

how many packs a day do you smoke

I have sold several other products way in the past like scuba gear and wine....I will say right up front I was not good at selling cars....I do not tolerate people that think they will trade in a car 5K upside down on a 36K expedition and somehow pay 400 a month for 4 years with nothing down....people suddenly become dumb as a stump as soon as they walk on the lot

Middlekauff had a 100% T.O. policy as well and that was just a style cramper for me.....I was worried if I confronted the ignorant the wrong way I would blow them right off the lot then have to get bitched at for 30 minutes....I understand the T.O. but it was a style cramper for me

I actually thought "The Chopper" TV show was pretty realistic about some of the business and I liked his more positive style VS the 100% T.O. crap that gets your mind thinking of how to avoid this total moron with no clue and no cash from leaving before you get him in the box and get his information

[crunchtastic]

Why can't you people just come in and buy for the sticker price. You don't negotiate a BigMac when you go to Mickey D's ?

At the risk of being an idiot of a car buyer, I'm one of those sticker price people. I've bought 2 new vehicles in my life, and both were for more or less sitcker. I got some accessory stuff thrown in. My dad, who will spend a year shopping for a car, was mortified at what a chump I was, but I drove my $11,000 sticker price nissan truck for 13 years and still sold it for $2,000 cash, so it worked for me. Spending my entire day with those lot lizards at the dealership isn't worth the money. Of course if I were spending 50K, it would be a different story, but I can't imagine ever spending that kind of money on wheels. Same with the Scion. They have that no-haggle thing. There were people wanting to deal. It was kind of weird, the sales agents were just politely refusing to negotiate. Is that just a put-on?? Is there really no suhc thing as no-haggle, menu pricing, whatever?

I felt like I was getting a good value car for the money, so I asked for little less than a grand in accessories, got them, and ordered the car. It took about an hour. I didn't feel like I was geting ripped off.

[TexasVines]

At the risk of being an idiot of a car buyer, I'm one of those sticker price people. I've bought 2 new vehicles in my life, and both were for more or less sitcker. I got some accessory stuff thrown in. My dad, who will spend a year shopping for a car, was mortified at what a chump I was, but I drove my $11,000 sticker price nissan truck for 13 years and still sold it for $2,000 cash, so it worked for me. Spending my entire day with those lot lizards at the dealership isn't worth the money. Of course if I were spending 50K, it would be a different story, but I can't imagine ever spending that kind of money on wheels. Same with the Scion. They have that no-haggle thing. There were people wanting to deal. It was kind of weird, the sales agents were just politely refusing to negotiate. Is that just a put-on?? Is there really no suhc thing as no-haggle, menu pricing, whatever?

I felt like I was getting a good value car for the money, so I asked for little less than a grand in accessories, got them, and ordered the car. It took about an hour. I didn't feel like I was geting ripped off.

as far as I have ever known Saturn will not negotiate period

and if $500+ for a few hours of your time is not worth it your salesman thanks you....it is not hard at all to make a good car deal if you know what you are doing and what to say

the easiest deal I ever saw go down was a guy that just said "I never pay more than 300 over invoice for any car" and he was buying a loaded extended cab F150 Lariat......he got it for the 300 over because he knew that was about the lowest the dealer would take and it was not a new model year for the F150 and he was in the box for about 20 minutes including with the floor manager and probably in F&I for 30 minutes...he probably could have wasted 3 more hours for 100 bucks and gotten it for 200 over invoice, but some people know how to balance the value of their time and energy VS their money

the best deal I ever saw offered was 800 UNDER invoice on an explorer with a 5.0 V8 and the idiot Aggie engineer walked on the deal because of 50 dollars....he had an invoice from online he had paid 50 bucks to get and wanted the newer V6 and all we had was the exact same model with the 5.0 V8.....he was practically floored when we pulled our invoice and showed it to him and everything matched up except the engine of course......he wanted to pay 50 over invoice and after we discounted the price of the V8 to get it under invoice it would have been the same as him paying 100 over invoice for the V6.....he walked after about 4 hours over the 50 bucks because he thought we should reward him for doing his homework....no reward for us for showing him our invoice honestly or for discounting the V8.......the idiot walked on the lot saying he was just looking and needed to be at work in an hour or so, so he was in a hurry.....4-5 hours later that idiot Aggie who was a facilities engineer that had just returned from building a wafer fab plant in Korea for 2 years walked over 50 dollars so he could go spend 5-6 hours at another dealer and probably paid over 100 over invoice in the end because there was no chance that moron was going to return to us and we would not have offered him that deal again even the same day

he probably made well over 50 an hour, but he was just a stupid Aggie and could not work that basic math....buy the one with the V8 for 50 more than you wanted to spend on the V6 and get your boat and get to the lake fool instead of wasting days on a car lot with creeps

I got bitched at because I could not get him "more excited" about an explorer

the worst deal I ever saw was a lady that was pure payment buyer and when it was all said and done they had to LOWER her payments because they were already 1200 OVER sticker and were worried she would see that if it got any higher and if they charged the rate of interest for the payments they offered her they would have been charged with illegal interest rates

so she got hooked up for 5 years, 1200 over sticker and I think 22% interest (what ever the max legal was by law)

another guy was high fiving everyone because he worked over HIS MOM!....of course that guy had divorced parents and his dad made so much cash he put some companies in his sons name and paid him for being "on the board"....the mom was getting alimony and I am sure she knew she got a bad deal....but he was proud for getting to his mom

of course in the car business if you can't make money off of friends and family (screw them) who can you screw!

[cottonmather0]

as for actually trying to tell friends the best way to make a car deal.......90% will not listen after the first 3 minutes because it involves things like understanding the 4 square, the clean sheet of paper, holdback, dealer cash, the proper way to use the rebate, finding out their credit rating, and shopping for a loan BEFORE going to the dealer

it is not that hard to make a good deal, but the vast majority of people who still do their homework will leave out one thing to study up on and a "good" salesman will find that and really use it against them because they have "won" on all the other issues........and they still leave having paid several hundred to several thousand more than they should have

lastly there is really nothing to "move up to" because even upper management has very little security and owning a dealership is actually not that profitable for the investment and most dealers actually cash in on the land under the dealer when they finally sell and there are way to many dealer groups out there now that will kill the independent

You hit the nail on the head, chief. The secret is to be willing to shop and let the dealers compete amongst themselves and LET THEM KNOW that they are competing with other dealers. That's why buying a new car is easier (in my opinion) than a used car, because you know that the two dealerships are selling EXACTLY the same product (and if they're not, the differences are easily enumerated in a standard way).

Notice that I'm not saying anything about being "informed" and being a stubborn a-hole waving internet information around like it's some kind of Holy Grail. That information is a good starting place and is fun to revisit at the end (and is much more useful for negotiating a used car price), but all that really matters is the price the dealer is willing to sell for. Just like our oil price thread, it doesn't matter how much it cost the seller to acquire the product, what matters is the price he's willing to give it to you for.

When I was growing up in San Angelo, there were dealers in little towns like Robert Lee and Bronte and Big Lake and Snyder who would brag that they had better prices than "big city dealers" because they had lower overhead being in such a small town. A lot of people tended to (and probably still do) buy that line because it makes sense intuitively, but the truth is, once I've driven 40 miles to an out-of-town dealer, and the next closest dealer is another 40 miles away, I'm more likely to take whatever deal they show me because it's too much trouble to shop around and I've already got my heart set on buying a new car that day, so what's an extra $30 a month?

I am curious why you say there is something to "understand" about the 4 square. It's just a gimmick to confuse buyers. All that matters is your number and my number and whether we can get those to match. All of the other stuff is my own business and has nothing to do (at the moment) with the price I want to pay for the car. We can talk about all that other stuff later, if I choose, or not, if I don't choose. In fact, after I (or whoever I am helping shop) have done a test drive and figured out what I want to buy, I don't even go to the dealership (for a new car) until I know exactly what the purchase price is going to be.

TV, I think everything you just described about how the salesmen and managers in the car business can be applied to 90% of the businesses out there. It isn't reserved for the car dealers, sorry you had such a rotten experience. I've been in the car biz for 10 years, and have luckily escaped ALL the pitfalls you claim. If anything, functioning drunks and alcoholic managers would be more prevalant in the Restaurant industry, which I also managed in for 10 yrs.

Why can't you people just come in and buy for the sticker price. You don't negotiate a BigMac when you go to Mickey D's ?

Sure I can negotiate for a Big Mac. I can negotiate for anything I want, I just have to find someone who has the agency (ie is authorized) to make a deal with me. The guy running the register at McDonalds doesn't have that authority, but the manager might and the owner of the franchise definitely does and I know someone who actually negotiated a bulk purchase of Big Macs at a big discount for a corporate event. Generally speaking, a lot of owners won't do it because they are worried in some capacity about, or are expressly limited by, their franchise agreement with McDonalds corporate but then in that case you would just negotiate with McDonalds corporate instead.

Generally speaking, any purchase you make where there is a salesman who quotes you a price, all you have to do is ask. But this also goes back to TV's point that it doesn't make any difference to go up because once you find someone who is authorized to negotiate with you he can give you whatever deal he wants, the difference just comes out of his pocket.

FWIW, I tried to negotiate directly with Mattress Mac one time and it didn't go very well, so don't try it. His salesmen aren't authorized and he's already got all the business he wants by convincing people that the stuff he sells is already the lowest price in town, so he doesn't need the trouble from people like me. I was pushy and he finally turned his back on me. The salesman then asked me to leave the store. That was fun!

[TexasVines]

well by understanding the 4 square I mean you need to understand it is just a method to try and make you into either a price buyer or a payment buyer or sadly an interest rate buyer and then they can figure out how to work you over

only a fool would negotiate payments before they have figured out what the actual price of the product is....the four square is designed to do just that....lock you in on payment, price, or interest rate and then work from there

the only way to buy a car is work the deal for the PRICE period and then you already have prearranged financing from a reputable source or sources that you know is about the best you can get and you already know about what that interest rate on the price car you want will equal for payments....then the dealer can try and meet or beat that interest rate and payment....with a laptop these days it would be easy to have an actuary table right there with you in the box so once you get your PRICE you can just plug that into the table at the interest YOUR LENDER has given you and then you have an exact payment per month.....then if the dealer can beat that you have done well....dealers can get good financing especially if they are a strong dealer in an area with few repos.....those same dealers can also work with credit risk as well because they have a smaller % of repos so their lender will take a risk from time to time.....the dealers that take a risk on everyone will always have higher interest rates because the lenders are going to take into account their repo rate

[memebag]

Same with the Scion. They have that no-haggle thing. There were people wanting to deal. It was kind of weird, the sales agents were just politely refusing to negotiate. Is that just a put-on?? Is there really no suhc thing as no-haggle, menu pricing, whatever?

Scion discourages negotiating, but dealers have some wiggle room. I told the salesman I wanted a blue one with the stock radio since I was going to replace it anyway. They said all of their blue ones had premium radios. I told them I'd go someplace else. It takes less than 5 minutes to swap radios, but the salesman's boss heard all of this, pulled him over and gave him a photocopied document that said they were offering a $250 discount on the premium radio. I took the deal, because for $140 that premium radio is better than anything else I could have replaced it with. If I hadn't threatened to walk out I never would have heard about the rebate.

[cottonmather0]

as far as I have ever known Saturn will not negotiate period

and if $500+ for a few hours of your time is not worth it your salesman thanks you....it is not hard at all to make a good car deal if you know what you are doing and what to say

the easiest deal I ever saw go down was a guy that just said "I never pay more than 300 over invoice for any car" and he was buying a loaded extended cab F150 Lariat......he got it for the 300 over because he knew that was about the lowest the dealer would take and it was not a new model year for the F150 and he was in the box for about 20 minutes including with the floor manager and probably in F&I for 30 minutes...he probably could have wasted 3 more hours for 100 bucks and gotten it for 200 over invoice, but some people know how to balance the value of their time and energy VS their money

DING DING DING DING DING

the worst deal I ever saw was a lady that was pure payment buyer and when it was all said and done they had to LOWER her payments because they were already 1200 OVER sticker and were worried she would see that if it got any higher and if they charged the rate of interest for the payments they offered her they would have been charged with illegal interest rates

so she got hooked up for 5 years, 1200 over sticker and I think 22% interest (what ever the max legal was by law)

another guy was high fiving everyone because he worked over HIS MOM!....of course that guy had divorced parents and his dad made so much cash he put some companies in his sons name and paid him for being "on the board"....the mom was getting alimony and I am sure she knew she got a bad deal....but he was proud for getting to his mom

of course in the car business if you can't make money off of friends and family (screw them) who can you screw!

My mom is upside down and stuck on one of these type deals that she got a couple of years ago. She is a retired teacher and on a fixed-income and was so set on being independent that she walked in and got eaten alive and didn't even realize it - a total "payment buyer" (on everything) and had no idea what she was doing. I didn't even know she had a new car until I went to visit her for Christmas in San Angelo 6 months after the fact and I didn't know the details until last year when she asked me to help her get set up using Quicken to keep her books. I about spit out my coffee when we set up the loan account on her computer:

$23,350 (full retail) @ 15.47% for 72 months = $499.78 / month... for a FREAKING PT CRUISER!!! (I have no idea why she likes those things, but it's her second one)

23 months later she's still $4000 underwater and there is nothing we can really do. And I feel doubly bad because if she had only asked for my help I think she could have gotten a great deal here in Houston for a much lower interest rate. Naturally, I am trying to keep a closer eye on her these days.

If I were to ever find the salesman who did that to her, I think it would be an interesting conversation.

[cottonmather0]

well by understanding the 4 square I mean you need to understand it is just a method to try and make you into either a price buyer or a payment buyer or sadly an interest rate buyer and then they can figure out how to work you over

only a fool would negotiate payments before they have figured out what the actual price of the product is....the four square is designed to do just that....lock you in on payment, price, or interest rate and then work from there

Which is why I always tell the salesman to put his paper away as soon as he pulls it out (this only happens for used cars, as otherwise I wouldn't be there until I already had a price set for a new car). A couple of time they've just insisted, so both times I asked to borrow his pen and scribbled all over it and told him it was irrelevant. One guy took the hint and quit trying to bother, the other guy drew it again and at that point I took the paper and tore it in half. I ended up buying cars from both of them once they realized I was a serious buyer with cash in my pocket, which is really all they care about.

EDIT ADDENDUM: I know I was being a jerk, but one of the things I like about buying cars is that being a jerk is perfectly acceptable and the standard way of doing business. I know that acting that way isn't for everyone, but anyone buying a car has to come up with some way to be assertive and convey that to the salesman. Otherwise they will smell fresh meat and be much harder to deal with in the end. For me it's being a jerk, for others it might be getting in the car without a word and leaving for 15 minutes and leaving them hanging and for others it might be something completely different. That's my advice - that you have to do something - and for me it just works to be a pushy jerk back.

the only way to buy a car is work the deal for the PRICE period and then you already have prearranged financing from a reputable source or sources that you know is about the best you can get and you already know about what that interest rate on the price car you want will equal for payments....then the dealer can try and meet or beat that interest rate and payment....with a laptop these days it would be easy to have an actuary table right there with you in the box so once you get your PRICE you can just plug that into the table at the interest YOUR LENDER has given you and then you have an exact payment per month.....then if the dealer can beat that you have done well....dealers can get good financing especially if they are a strong dealer in an area with few repos.....those same dealers can also work with credit risk as well because they have a smaller % of repos so their lender will take a risk from time to time.....the dealers that take a risk on everyone will always have higher interest rates because the lenders are going to take into account their repo rate

When I bought my truck a couple of years ago, I prearranged a rate from my credit union. Then when I sat down with the "finance guy" at the dealership he started trying to sell me a loan and I told him I already had that taken care of. He didn't ask to see the letter, he just asked me what rate they gave me, so I told him something 1% less than what they really gave me and he offered to beat that by 0.25% if I would finance it through him! BWAHAHAHAHA! I was already just $100 over invoice and didn't take any add-ons or warranties and I think he was desperate to just get something extra out of the deal. It was awesome.

[houstonmacbro]

I negotiate on things I think are worth negotiating for.

Example, I just bought two air filters for my home. One was packaged and the other looked like it had been opened. Nothing wrong with the 2nd one, just opened.

I notified the cashier and she took $1 off the price. Now, honestly the $1 wasn't gonna kill me either way, but why not get a discount. Home Depot is making a serious markup anyhow, and the darned thing is prolly not even worth $.50 to begin with.

[TexasVines]

DING DING DING DING DING

My mom is upside down and stuck on one of these type deals that she got a couple of years ago. She is a retired teacher and on a fixed-income and was so set on being independent that she walked in and got eaten alive and didn't even realize it - a total "payment buyer" (on everything) and had no idea what she was doing. I didn't even know she had a new car until I went to visit her for Christmas in San Angelo 6 months after the fact and I didn't know the details until last year when she asked me to help her get set up using Quicken to keep her books. I about spit out my coffee when we set up the loan account on her computer:

$23,350 (full retail) @ 15.47% for 72 months = $499.78 / month... for a FREAKING PT CRUISER!!! (I have no idea why she likes those things, but it's her second one)

23 months later she's still $4000 underwater and there is nothing we can really do. And I feel doubly bad because if she had only asked for my help I think she could have gotten a great deal here in Houston for a much lower interest rate. Naturally, I am trying to keep a closer eye on her these days.

If I were to ever find the salesman who did that to her, I think it would be an interesting conversation.

I know there are industries that probably make a higher % markup than new cars.....but that deal there is why I could not do it......72 months is the real stinger on that deal.....well so is full sticker on a PT (very dated car these days).....well so is that 15.47% interest rate

if you ever found that sales guy I can assure you he remembers your mom because they probably laughed about that deal for 6 months after and in every sales meeting every week they yelled at everyone else about why they were not ripping the heads off of people like your mom the way your moms salesman did her

I have to say that deal is just PAINFUL to look at.....full sticker on a PT is like a kick in the nuts and 72 months is like getting hit over the head with a 2X4 several times and then the interest is like ketting kicked in the stomach and face while you are down holding your nuts and head...but yea there were high 5s all around after that deal went out the door

they probably did not even give her a walk around of the car and just tossed her the keys so she could get off the lot before her phone rang and a loving relative was on the other end of the phone to hear about that "deal"

I believe the lady in the story I told got an escort....but it was "loaded"

you know if they had just worked her over on the interest, the price, or the length of the loan it would be easier to understand....but they are like sharks to blood....when it gets going they just keep working it.....the guy in F&I probably had the inside on her before she went in and he was probably the one that had to bump her from 5 to 6 years to "get that payment"

I am sure the salesman was embarrassed he left that money on the table for the back of the house

it is a horrible business

the great news for your mom is San Angelo is one of the most beautiful towns in Texas....what a great west Texas town

[cottonmather0]

full sticker on a PT is like a kick in the nuts

Yeah, the 72 is bad, buy you have indeed cut to the quick of my opinion - they are literally dodge neon station wagons.

Nonetheless, like I said, she loves those cars for whatever crazy reason that may be and I found out too late.

if you ever found that sales guy I can assure you he remembers your mom because they probably laughed about that deal for 6 months after and in every sales meeting every week they yelled at everyone else about why they were not ripping the heads off of people like your mom the way your moms salesman did her

it is a horrible business

Hence, I have no compunction in being ruthless when I go to the dealership myself - I know what they've capable of!

[TexasVines]

Yeah, the 72 is bad, buy you have indeed cut to the quick of my opinion - they are literally dodge neon station wagons.

Nonetheless, like I said, she loves those cars for whatever crazy reason that may be and I found out too late.

I have always thought they were pretty cool cars and rode in one for the first time just about a month back and it was kind of cool inside I thought....but my parents looked at one and just could not deal with the ride of a dodge neon with a heavier body on it

as for the way you negotiate.....you are probably tame compared to some...I had the foolish idea I would find the customers like you and just make a deal the way you want and work it like that and get some referrals.....but the vast majority of people that think like you walk on the lot and think a salesman like me was weak....not realizing even if I was weak the management is there to prevent weakness in anyone but a customer....so even trying to deal with straight up people turned into them stabbing me in the back in the box and me getting yelled at later on

if you even let the salesman start the 4 square (we did not actually use that method) then you have wasted your time.....if they were decent salesmen they were glad you tore up the paper or scribbled on it because then they could make the deal, get their "mini", move a unit, and get back on the floor to find another "up" to screw....but they did appreciate the unit moved out the door

it is the reason that cars will always be haggled on....because people demand it