Cheap Gas!

[Hunter]

Okay we actually have several Hybrid cars of different makes and models here at work. I have spent considerable amount of time in all of them. This is my main findings so far.

*If you do a lot of city driving they are wonderful in fuel savings.

*If you do a lot of HWY driving then get a regular car because you will not see much of a difference. On a long distance drive they perform just as well as a regular compact car in fuel savings.

*Drive them often or the starter battery will die on you.

*in some models if you run the Air conditioner then forget the savings because the motor will run anyway.

*They take very little in the way of gas to fill up.

*Some have very roomy interiors others do not.

*The dashboard controls take a little getting use to.

*And do not leave you keys in them for if you do the doors will auto lock after a few minutes.

I hope that helped everyone out.

The Hybrid cars are mainly designed for Regular Street running. I have seen no real improvement when on the Hwy. They do handle nice though and thanks to the on board batteries they are all heavy. Just stay out of high water with them. Actually just stay out of any standing water period with them.

[bruce_oneal]

Okay we actually have several Hybrid cars of different makes and models here at work. I have spent considerable amount of time in all of them. This is my main findings so far.

*If you do a lot of city driving they are wonderful in fuel savings.

*If you do a lot of HWY driving then get a regular car because you will not see much of a difference. On a long distance drive they perform just as well as a regular compact car in fuel savings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, most of the ads even show clearly that city driving is much higher than highway driving. i would think they would be perfect for a city like houston where much of the traffic during rush hour is start and stop.

[jm1fd]

Leasing doesn't work for me, because I put 20,000k - 25,000k miles on my vehicles every year. I don't like paying a large down payment to rent something either. Imagine having to pay a ten dollar premium everytime you rented a movie from blockbuster. And when paid off, I accept that there is a loss, but at the same time by trading-in I retain a down payment for a new vehicle (usually one of more value at purchase than the vehicle before). Also, by owning, I can modify my car. Finally, with gap insurance, I'm covered in case of an accident that totals out the vehicle.

Okay, yah....yer mileage is killer for leases....but then again its killer for trade in resale, espescially on that fru fru Acura.

First of all, only fools put down payments on leases. If the car is totaled, that down payment is gone. What's even better about a lease, is that it potentially insulates you from a large loss at trade in time if the market is soft for that particular car, or you've wrecked it which has caused a loss in value. On the flipside, if the car is worth more than your end of lease buyout, then you can get the equity back out of it. That's a win-win. The worst thing that can happen when leasing is that you break even....and that's not a bad thing.

Sure it sounds crazy - but in all reality, aren't you just going to pay a drive a car and pay to live in a house the rest of your life? And you can't take either with you when you die - so whats the point of trying to hoard it and save money? I say - drive what you want, have fun, and enjoy today. Some of you saving up for stuff will either never make it your number one priority to get it, or you'll die before you can. I'm sure as hell not waiting around to find out which it will be for me.

Leasing is usually the optimal solution if you've decided to have an eternal car payment. You're shifting all the liability to the leasing company.

The point of saving money is to be able to be able to buy nicer things for less money. I was driving a Lexus SC 400 when I was 21. Sold it, and bought an Audi TT, both were in excellent condtion, and largely couldn't be told from new. I also have a 1994 Mazda RX-7 (yes, the twin turbo). In all three cases, I let some other guy pay buckets of money for those first few expensive years of depreciation, and then bought them for half (or less) of sticker price. I'm pretty sure I'm driving what I want, and I'm damn sure having fun.

Here's the math: I bought a 2001 Isuzu Rodeo LS brand new, and after taxes it was $21,000k. I drove it four years paying $550.00 a month. I just traded it in for a 2005 Acura TSX A-spec for about 26,000k after taxes. I got $8,000.00 in trade for my Rodeo bringing my new total to $18,000. So my new payments are $450.00 a month for 4 years. So now I have a nicer vehicle, and I'm paying less monthly.

If you had bought a 1 year old Rodeo, you'd be even better off now.

Now, 4 years from now, I'll trade in that car and it will be worth around $10,000k trade-in. I apply that to a $30,000 dollar vehicle and my new note will again be around $450.00. So its a perpetual cycle.

Your scenario doesn't account for poor resale, or value losses such as major wrecks or absurdly huge mileage (150-200k), you assume you're going to get all this money back at trade time, which may or may not be the case.

The nicer the new vehicle, the more the trade-in value.

Rarely is this true. 7 series BMWs have monumentally terrible resale, as do S class Mercedes, Cadillacs, and Lincolns. Percentage wise luxury cars (even the cheaper ones) retain less value than Honda Accords.

By keeping my Rodeo for another 2-3 years, the trade value will continue to plummet. Your vehicle is worth its most the second you pay it off. The longer you wait, and "save" money, is the longer you have to drive around in a vehicle with high milage, that has no more warranty, and that if broken will cost more out of pocket.

Overall, the absolute best time to own a car from a depreciation standpoint is after year 5, it has had all the major value losses its going to have, and should be pretty flat from there on out. A more reasonable time to own a car is to buy it after year 1 and sell before year 5. Years 1 and 5 represent the biggest value drops.

[tw2ntyse7en]

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[jm1fd]

Acura is a killer in trade compared to what though? Honda's & Toyota's are the best trade-in & resellers in the market. Face it, all trade-ins are a rip-off.

Lexus has extremely good resale for a luxury brand. Yes, Honda and Toyota for the most part lead the resale department. Although certain cars cars like the Infiniti G35 coupe have even better resale.

You make good points, but I was always under the impression that you have to make a down-payment at time of purchase. "$XXXX.xx Due At Signing" I always read and hear that in the ads & commercials. Thats not a down-payment? Or are you saying theres a way around it?

Right, they always advertise it that way to make the payment just 50 cents a month. There will be some XXX due at signing....kinda like closing costs, but the down payment is just a buydown, and is almost always optional.

I agree. The Acura we bought is a certified pre-own. So we get a free 10,000 mile extension on our warranty, plus we saved about 5k on the sticker because of the A-spec package goodies. It still has the new car smell, and there were only some minor interior cosmetic defects (the previous owner had kids..) that one good cleaning made disappear.

That's a step in the right direction, although I've never felt that CPO programs were the best value. Better deals can be had on the open market.

Incidentally, the CPO programs came into existance as a way for manufacturers to prop up resale values.

I do make the assumtion that I will get a certain percentage back because I can control all aspects of resale except for wrecks. And when you have friends in the body-shop business, wrecks are a moot point.

The only aspects of resale you have control over are stuff like options, color, mileage, and condition. You have no control over how saturated the market is with a particular vehicle (major influence of resale, see Ford Taurus), or how much demand there is in the marketplace.

Friends at the body shop or not, the dealership is going to see it and deduct for it. Short of spending years and hundreds of thousands of dollars on a repair, the processes and general perfection of the factory will not be duplicated. Again, a bigger loss for repaired damage on a fru fru Acura than a Honda Civic.

[ssullivan]

I've never purchased a brand new car, and as soon I as I'm in my new job (hopefully very soon!) I'll be in the market for replacing my current car, which is now approaching seven years old and has almost 110,000 miles on it. After looking at the options out there, certifed pre-owned is a great way to go. I've found some great options in the $20,000-25,000 range that have fewer than 12,000 miles and are 2004 and 2005 models. The same car with no miles and no previous owner is going for $8,000-12,000 more, and with the warranty extension they're doing on these now, you're still getting the equivalent of a new car warranty when you drive it off the lot.

Right now I'm thinking about the Accord EX V6 with leather. I also really like the Acura TL, but the Accord EX with leather isn't all that different in terms of features, and is a lot less expensive.

[tw2ntyse7en]

...

[ssullivan]

Well I still want a brand new TL but I think for at least the next couple of years a more reasonable monthly payment would be better, so that I can pay off the debt I've accumulated during my period of unemployment. Ideally I'd wait another year to replace my car, but given its current level of reliability, I'm just better off to go ahead and get it done in the next three or four months.

[Hunter]

yeah, most of the ads even show clearly that city driving is much higher than highway driving.  i would think they would be perfect for a city like houston where much of the traffic during rush hour is start and stop.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These cars are excellent for stop and go traffic. As a matter of fact the slower you go the better the savings. I have foudn that if you get around 35 to 40 miles an hour then the regular gas motor will kick in to get youy moving faster. If you stay below that speed limit then you will mainly run on batteries unless they get low on juice. I once filled my tank on a Monday and it was the next Thursday that I had to put gass in again and I drove around 400 miles on city streets with very few Hwy miles. Almost 2 weeks on one tank of gas. That impressed me.

I also drove the Toyota to Austin once and did nto see any real improvement over my personnal Toyota Corolla.

They are made for city street. Not Hwys.

[bruce_oneal]

These cars are excellent for stop and go traffic. As a matter of fact the slower you go the better the savings. I have foudn that if you get around 35 to 40 miles an hour then the regular gas motor will kick in to get youy moving faster. If you stay below that speed limit then you will mainly run on batteries unless they get low on juice. I once filled my tank on a Monday and it was the next Thursday that I had to put gass in again and I drove around 400 miles on city streets with very few Hwy miles. Almost 2 weeks on one tank of gas. That impressed me.

I also drove the Toyota to Austin once and did nto see any real improvement over my personnal Toyota Corolla.

They are made for city street. Not Hwys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

cool!

[jm1fd]

They are made for city street. Not Hwys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And that's why I think it is so brilliant that the city is using them for various departments....these are the perfect fleet cars for city inspectors or other folks who don't need the hauling capacity of a truck. Probably would make great food delivery fleet cars too.....I wonder if any of the automakers have a cheap version in the works with minimal options for this purpose....

[Trophy Property]

I agree on both points! I tried to get my wife to look at the Accord EX V6 - but noooo, she had to have the Acura! I was surprised when she found such a good deal on the TSX. I think after this one, we're going to go for the TL though.

I guess can't complain too much - I love driving that thing!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The pre-owned is the way to go, but remember that the dealership will jack up the price vs buying the car off the street. There is a lot more risk involved with the street, but I have some issues with my pre-owned car I bought from a dealership. The warranty expired and minor things started breaking down. I have owned my car (1999 Audi A6) since 2001. It had 30,000 miles when I bought it (now has 66k). I financed it over 5 years at 7%. I am still underwater on it. Basically the car is worth about $8,500 and I still owe $9,000. I should be right side up pretty soon, but I am still annoyed with myself for not making extra payments each month. What sucks is that when I am finsished paying it off I will be in the market for another car.

On the reverse side, I bought my Fiance a Mini Cooper for Christmas. This time I put down a nice amount of cash and I have been making double payments for the past 3 months. I am already right side up on the damn thing. The car is brand new, cheap, woth more than I owe, and gets great mileage. It also helps that she absolutely loves the car.

[ssullivan]

I once filled my tank on a Monday and it was the next Thursday that I had to put gass in again and I drove around 400 miles on city streets with very few Hwy miles. Almost 2 weeks on one tank of gas. That impressed me.

That is impressive! And since most of my driving is in the city off the freeways -- I rarely have road trips over 120 miles that I drive -- it would be a perfect option for me. I just wish I could find one that was slightly used with a lot of the warranty remaining. But it looks like people are holding onto their hybrids because I haven't been able to find anything in the pre-owned market that still had a warranty and low mileage.

[bruce_oneal]

That is impressive! And since most of my driving is in the city off the freeways -- I rarely have road trips over 120 miles that I drive -- it would be a perfect option for me. I just wish I could find one that was slightly used with a lot of the warranty remaining. But it looks like people are holding onto their hybrids because I haven't been able to find anything in the pre-owned market that still had a warranty and low mileage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what's the long term durability of these vehicles? i would think that being hondas and toyotas they are pretty well-made?

[LTAWACS]

Great idea....the break even point in cost savings is a mere 156k miles....and that's assuming all city driving (quickest break even) and gas at $2.50 per gallon.  Each and every fill up after that, you can take comfort in the knowledge that you just saved $4.50 over a regular Accord.

Oh damn...I left out the sales tax.....better make that 166k miles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How did you figure this out?

[jm1fd]

How did you figure this out?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You figure out the cost per mile to fuel each one, then find out what mileage makes

(Hybrid Purchase Price)+(miles*Hybrid fuel cost per mile)=

(non hybrid purch price)+(miles*non hybrid fuel cost per mile)

Dead simple, espescially when you make an assumption like only city MPG will be used (best case scenario for the hybrid), and a fixed price of gasoline.

[jm1fd]

what's the long term durability of these vehicles?

[Trophy Property]

I've heard of some making it 1/4 of a million miles, and this is a very important question considering that replacement parts are going to cost one meeeeelion dollars.  I heard the center LCD display in the 2nd gen Prius is $14k, and battery packs run $8k.  At those prices, at 150k miles, the cost of the parts alone will greatly exceed the value of the repaired car....junkyard time! 

I have no firsthand knowledge of prices, but the guy I discussed it with seemed quite knowledgable on the matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I might not understand what you are saying but how come the cars are not $80k + to start with. It does not make sense that the part cost 14k to replace but much less to put in a new car.

[jm1fd]

I might not understand what you are saying but how come the cars are not $80k + to start with.  It does not make sense that the part cost 14k to replace but much less to put in a new car.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you bought all the parts to build *any* car, you'd spend substantially more than what it would cost to just buy the whole car. That's how it works. Now are those prices absurdly high? Are they correct? I have no idea. I do know that Toyota has also spent TONS of money on building these....they even built a fab to make some of the semiconductors.....fabs are VERY expensive.

[Hunter]

what's the long term durability of these vehicles?  i would think that being hondas and toyotas they are pretty well-made?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We have had a mixed reaction to the vehicles. The vast majority of them seem work most excellent. But we have a few that are not much better than expensive paper weights. The again most of the cars we have are all first generations! I wish I could tell you more but I do know that they so far the Toyotas are preforming the best!

[bruce_oneal]

We have had a mixed reaction to the vehicles. The vast majority of them seem work most excellent. But we have a few that are not much better than expensive paper weights. The again most of the cars we have are all first generations! I wish I could tell you more but I do know that they so far the Toyotas are preforming the best!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, first gen 'anything' is usually nothing more than a test. i am a photographer and some of the first gen digital slrs were awful --just not up to par with what consumers have come to expect. i would expect toyotas (of just about any ilk) to be pretty reliable though. but having never owned a toyota, i am just speaking from hearsay mainly.

[Ashikaga]

I know there is a website where you can enter your city or zip and it will tell you where the cheap is.

I remember when I was in elementary school back in the 1960s, when my parents would stop for gas, the average price for regular LEADED was 29.9 cents a gallon (it's always irritated me as to the reason why that have to say point 9).

[sevfiv]

people think they're getting a better deal if it is rounded down to the nearest tenth...

[TJones]

Do share...exactly what are the common mechanisms by which cheap gas ruins engines?

Companies like Murphy Oil, which services all of Sam's Wholesale and Wal-Mart, do not use the detergents neccessary to keep your injectors clean, that is one way they are able to keep their prices lower. If you want clogged injectors, by all means use these type of folks, but I recommend using Chevron gas, their Techron product is second to none. I don't work for Chevron, nor does anyone in my family. I do have a couple of friends whose fathers are VPs for them though, I trust them, and feel that they wouldn't lie to me.

[Ashikaga]

people think they're getting a better deal if it is rounded down to the nearest tenth...

That goes to show how blind and stupid most of us are. You see something on TV that sells for $19.95. But you probably wouldn't buy if they said $20. That nickle makes a big difference to retailers.

[TJones]

That goes to show how blind and stupid most of us are. You see something on TV that sells for $19.95. But you probably wouldn't buy if they said $20. That nickle makes a big difference to retailers.

You are right Ash... perception is the key to selling.

[Ashikaga]

a couple of blocks east of royal oaks. woodland park drive between westheimer and richmond.

I got gas today at Raceway, formerly Racetrac. And I checked their website. Yes, there are some in Houston. At the one in Port Arthur today, regular unleaded was $1.99 a gallon.

[sevfiv]

the shell by me is at 1.99...the citgo across the way is 1.98...

[Ashikaga]

the shell by me is at 1.99...the citgo across the way is 1.98...

I guess that changes start over there in Houston and gradually work their way eastward to over here. Now the Diamond Shamrock stations here are officially Valero.

[Ashikaga]

We have had a mixed reaction to the vehicles. The vast majority of them seem work most excellent. But we have a few that are not much better than expensive paper weights. The again most of the cars we have are all first generations! I wish I could tell you more but I do know that they so far the Toyotas are preforming the best!

Over here, gas at Raceway (formerly Racetrac) today is the same ($1.99) that it was exactly one week ago. It hasn't gone down, but at least it hasn't gone up.

I personally believe that these prices are here to stay. But I hope I'm wrong. I'd be surprised if we ever see $1 a gallon ever again.