To Buy A Loft Or Townhome?

[lockmat]

I don't mean to steal this threads thunder, but after searching a little more on har, there's a lot of nice 'plexes in the $800 range. We'll see what they look like once the prices decline...

[crunchtastic]

I don't mean to steal this threads thunder, but after searching a little more on har, there's a lot of nice 'plexes in the $800 range. We'll see what they look like once the prices decline...

Ha ha, this thread's thunder. Sort of a drizzle, actually.

You have compelled me to provide one last piece of advice. Living in the fun zone, 4-plex style, on the lower end of rents you will fund two common things--no parking, and no central air. If you have a choice, settle for window units and get your car off the curb. Unless you drive a beater. I mean a real beater.

[lockmat]

Ha ha, this thread's thunder. Sort of a drizzle, actually.

You have compelled me to provide one last piece of advice. Living in the fun zone, 4-plex style, on the lower end of rents you will fund two common things--no parking, and no central air. If you have a choice, settle for window units and get your car off the curb. Unless you drive a beater. I mean a real beater.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I had a friend that moved into a 4-plex a couple years ago w/ no a.c. How that's possible in Houston, I have no idea. I'm not doin that.

[sarahiki]

Thanks, I appreciate it. I had a friend that moved into a 4-plex a couple years ago w/ no a.c. How that's possible in Houston, I have no idea. I'm not doin that.

This is bringing back memories. Before the kids, we lived in a little 1-BR carriage house in Montrose. One window unit for the whole place. Believe it or not, we rarely turned it on. The place was so shady, and the walls were so thick I guess, that it stayed cool. Nice. BTW, off-street parking but not a garage, and of course our car did get broken into.

[sowanome]

The kind of person that will one day sell their east side properties to you and folks like you, then live in River Oaks (or an area of equivalent interest).

Or you can put your surplus funds (if any) into an FDIC-insured savings account. Few speculation, few assumptions, no potential.

Wow Niche!!! you are a total joke, I bet you are waiting for that rebate that Bush just signed off on so you can take out your significant other to the numerous amounts of fine dining options in the EAST END? Now, you really don't want to bring up $ in this forum... all I can say is that I'm not a trust fund baby and have never inherited anything, but my Net Worth is Pretty Nice, Pretty, Pretty Nice for my age and I manage to live well below my means and not flashy at all. I Also, understand the stock market better than most!! Why did you have to take it their NICHE?? Why did you take it their NICHE?? Why NICHE? It's not fair, what if I was a poor, lower tax bracket citizen?? IT's not fair....

[sowanome]

Well hey, you asked how I'd evaluate a prospective spouse's financial situation, and I gave you my answer. I'm not BSing you. Net worth alone doesn't indicate net cash flow. Net cash flow alone doesn't indicate net worth. In an era of indebtedness, gross income fails even to place a cap on cash outflow. Yet at the same time, cash outflow can be treated as consumption or investment, and the latter can build net worth without realizing cash flow until a later date. NPV really and truely is the only measure worth a crap.

My own situation is an excellent example. If I liquidated all my investments and fully leveraged my income, this 23-year-old could very easily afford a >$250k townhome in one of your favorite neighborhoods and have enough left over to replace my four-year-old car with a new one of the same model, buy several trendy new suits and fashion accessories, shop at Whole Foods, get a membership at a gym, and then still go out on the town regularly and pick up materialistic chicks that'd be impressed by that kind of thing. Yet I live in a $55k condo and shop at a ghetto Kroger, placing my surplus cash flow not into trendy nick nacks, but into solid investments that'll produce far enhanced cash flows at a later date. I attempt to maximize my NPV. I'd like a wife of similar values; and not a whore--much less the kind of whore that'd be insulted by my explaining to her in no uncertain terms why she's a whore, such as are the type of women that go for foolish or dishonest men.

Yep. And that remarkable DT/Pavilions economic base is within walking distance of much of the East Downtown Warehouse District. Can't say the same for Rice Military.

The kind of person who travels to their place of employment more frequently than to upscale shopping destinations. ...people a lot like me.

A person like you.......enough said. You can drive to work as much as you want from river oaks, memorial, rice military in less than 5 minutes ???? Explain that to me....

Also, what about Regent Square....that's walking distance from rice military, w. gray area and you don't have to worry about bums!! So is west ave. from parts of the upper kirby area...

[TheNiche]

Wow Niche!!! you are a total joke, I bet you are waiting for that rebate that Bush just signed off on so you can take out your significant other to the numerous amounts of fine dining options in the EAST END?

Actually, I like East End dining options. Excellent value and I don't have to pay through the nose to cover their high-priced interior decorators. Kanomwan and 888 are my favorites and excellent cases in point; as a general rule, you know you're on to something when the place has a disproportionate number of Indian restaurant patrons, is what I've noticed. The taco trucks can also be really really good. Honorable mentions to Frank's Grill, Tel-Wink Diner, Golden Seafood, and Thelma's BBQ.

If you're the sort that really just can't bring himself to ingest sustinence except in elegant environs, I'd suggest that you try Brady's Landing. The food sucks and is overpriced, but for someone with preferences such as yours, it might just be the right kind of place. Just make sure that you get a table that doesn't have sweeping views of the ship channel, because all that grit and coolness could give such a delicate flower as yourself a heart attack.

[TheNiche]

A person like you.......enough said. You can drive to work as much as you want from river oaks, memorial, rice military in less than 5 minutes ???? Explain that to me....

Depends on where you work, what time of day you're driving, and what your parking arrangements are.

Also, what about Regent Square....that's walking distance from rice military, w. gray area and you don't have to worry about bums!! So is west ave. from parts of the upper kirby area...

What about Regent Square? What about West Ave.? Do you think it likely that Emirate is going to commute there five days a week during rush hours?

[sowanome]

While it is clear what YOU consider a better quality of life decision, it is also clear that you have completely ignored what the OP considers important. In one of his very first posts, he said he lives Downtown and LOVES it. You have spent the better part of the day criticizing the very part of town that the OP said he likes. Why you think that is good advice is beyond me.

Having lived in Rice Military myself, I wonder about your projections as well. I bought in in 1999, and sold in 2004 for a 50% profit. With the prices in Rice Military right now, coupled with the uncertain housing market, I doubt that an investment in most RM townhomes today will realize a 50% return in 2013. Those types of returns only occur in the gentrifying areas...like East End.

Lastly, do you REALLY drive up and down River Oaks Blvd. that often? If you needed a "jealous of the rich people" fix, couldn't one drive from the East End and look at other people's homes just as easily?

Wow 50% return? that's not even 10% a year over 6 years, in which the more developed parts of RM will definitely obtain....For example, I bought in that area more than 2 years ago and i rented my place out for 15% higher than mortgage, insurance and taxes included. I will say that there is a noticable difference between the areas that are near Washington ave vs. the areas near Memorial Drive. I also pointed out the areas between allen parkway and w. gray, that area will definitely appreciate nicely based on Regent Square and River Oaks shopping center... The truth is the truth and It is what it is...

By the way, I wasn't the first to mention River Oaks Blvd., but it speaks volumes that you think that much of it .... Also, what homes are there to drive by in the EAST END ?

When people speak of the East End, they don't understand that it has @ least 6 to 10 yrs. to go! Especially with the city houston having the heavy involvement that it has with those projects.... Everyone complains about the Light Rail and so will they complain about the east end and its slow development... By the time that area takes off, the forum starter will be 40....

OK, after speaking with a friend tonight in Chicago, "houston was a piece of **it 4 years ago, now DT houston is where the money is going" my friend is an I.banker with a highly reputable firm/bank..... The only problem is that he never commented on whether or not the $ is going to the east or west end!!! Point being that I said "stay away from the ballpark" ......If there were condos in the pavillion, i'd buy today....however, that's not the case.... West Houston it is.....

[musicman]

One thing I don't wanna do though is live in a place that can get too cold or too hot. I went through that already and it was hellish.

LOLOL wimp

[RedScare]

Wow 50% return? that's not even 10% a year over 6 years, in which the more developed parts of RM will definitely obtain....For example, I bought in that area more than 2 years ago and i rented my place out for 15% higher than mortgage, insurance and taxes included. I will say that there is a noticable difference between the areas that are near Washington ave vs. the areas near Memorial Drive. I also pointed out the areas between allen parkway and w. gray, that area will definitely appreciate nicely based on Regent Square and River Oaks shopping center... The truth is the truth and It is what it is...

By the way, I wasn't the first to mention River Oaks Blvd., but it speaks volumes that you think that much of it .... Also, what homes are there to drive by in the EAST END ?

When people speak of the East End, they don't understand that it has @ least 6 to 10 yrs. to go! Especially with the city houston having the heavy involvement that it has with those projects.... Everyone complains about the Light Rail and so will they complain about the east end and its slow development... By the time that area takes off, the forum starter will be 40....

OK, after speaking with a friend tonight in Chicago, "houston was a piece of **it 4 years ago, now DT houston is where the money is going" my friend is an I.banker with a highly reputable firm/bank..... The only problem is that he never commented on whether or not the $ is going to the east or west end!!! Point being that I said "stay away from the ballpark" ......If there were condos in the pavillion, i'd buy today....however, that's not the case.... West Houston it is.....

Yes, I admit a 50% appreciation in 5 years isn't great (especially since my current house has appreciated 70% in 4 years), but it sure beats the 10% DROP in prices for the same units since 2004 when I sold out. I just did a quick check on HAR. Back in the early 2000s, when I lived in the neighborhood, townhomes were selling routinely in the $120-140 psf range. One would expect to see townhomes in the $180-210 psf range today, even if they had a paltry 50% appreciation like mine. Yet, I found virtually NO townhomes selling over $160 psf, with most in the $130-150 psf range....only about a 15-20% increase over 4-5 years. Not sure where you are getting your numbers, but (oh wait, you didn't post any numbers) the area has not appreciated in the last 4 years to the extent you claim. The big jump occurred before you got there...frankly, when it still looked like the East End.

This is not to say that the West End is not nice, and improving. It is. This is also not to say that it will not continue to appreciate. It is merely to say that the big jumps have already occurred, meaning future appreciation will be smaller percentagewise.

[TheNiche]

Also, what homes are there to drive by in the EAST END ?

There are many tens of thousands.

When people speak of the East End, they don't understand that it has @ least 6 to 10 yrs. to go! Especially with the city houston having the heavy involvement that it has with those projects.... Everyone complains about the Light Rail and so will they complain about the east end and its slow development... By the time that area takes off, the forum starter will be 40....

Do you understand how prices are set? Do you understand the role of investor expectations? That it will 'pop' in a future that you may or may not still be around to experience doesn't change that it will 'pop' (and I use the word 'pop' in this context to mean an arbitrary threshold beyond which chumps take over, after which you start seeing gradual depreciation such as Red pointed out is happening in RM). Say I bought a property in a neighborhood with a 10-year fuse, live in it for 5 years, then sell it. Half the fuse has been spent, and so the next buyer, realizing that five years later he can turn around and sell it to a chump for a whole lot more, will be willing to pay a higher market price.

OK, after speaking with a friend tonight in Chicago, "houston was a piece of **it 4 years ago, now DT houston is where the money is going" my friend is an I.banker with a highly reputable firm/bank..... The only problem is that he never commented on whether or not the $ is going to the east or west end!!! Point being that I said "stay away from the ballpark" ......If there were condos in the pavillion, i'd buy today....however, that's not the case.... West Houston it is.....

Well, he's right. There is a lot of public and private investment of all sorts going on downtown, and all but one project that I can think of (Brookfield) is along or east of Main Street...and of the office towers, Brookfield's is the least likely to happen, it seems. I guess you can count the retrofitting of the long-vacant Sheraton hotel if you like, but that's just a matter of picking up the slack.

[sowanome]

Yes, I admit a 50% appreciation in 5 years isn't great (especially since my current house has appreciated 70% in 4 years), but it sure beats the 10% DROP in prices for the same units since 2004 when I sold out. I just did a quick check on HAR. Back in the early 2000s, when I lived in the neighborhood, townhomes were selling routinely in the $120-140 psf range. One would expect to see townhomes in the $180-210 psf range today, even if they had a paltry 50% appreciation like mine. Yet, I found virtually NO townhomes selling over $160 psf, with most in the $130-150 psf range....only about a 15-20% increase over 4-5 years. Not sure where you are getting your numbers, but (oh wait, you didn't post any numbers) the area has not appreciated in the last 4 years to the extent you claim. The big jump occurred before you got there...frankly, when it still looked like the East End.

This is not to say that the West End is not nice, and improving. It is. This is also not to say that it will not continue to appreciate. It is merely to say that the big jumps have already occurred, meaning future appreciation will be smaller percentagewise.

You failed to mentioned supply and demand, and also the price point in which you are located....Yes, you hit it on the head with the psq prices, but it's the winter and we are basically in the middle of a recession, which in part is due to the subprime/creative lending stage that we went through from 2001-2005. But obviously, along with the supply of investors, your appreciation had nothing to do with this? Nothing, you are just blaming it on being at the right place at the right time....Have you ever taken Economics 101 or better yet Real Estate Economics? Again, I agree on what you are saying about specific prices and the current pricing slowdown. However, Houston is a very protected place and the reason there is a lack of demand, is bc buyers keep listening to the national market! Trust me, things that are happening nationally aren't heavily occuring in Houston, The 4th largest city!!!

With that being said, have you seen what's available in the East End and it's Price Points? It's ridiculously, over priced for the product and they have already pushed up the $psf to a level that's comparative to parts of the Med Center, RM, and Midtown. This makes no sense especially for the much of the sub-par product that's in the East END...

My other ISSUE, is the amount of time it's taking to develop this area......They've been toying with this area since 1999, when they were clearing the area that's visible from Minute Maid park. Please do your homework....It's been almost 9 years and I'm sure when you moved to RM you know exactly what I'm speaking of...Is it better than 9 years ago? Sure, but where is the retail/parks/commerce? Do we have to wait 10 years for hardy yards, bayou clean up, etc..

[musicman]

This makes no sense especially for the much of the sub-par product that's in the East END...

what product are you talking about specifically?

[TheNiche]

With that being said, have you seen what's available in the East End and it's Price Points? It's ridiculously, over priced for the product and they have already pushed up the $psf to a level that's comparative to parts of the Med Center, RM, and Midtown. This makes no sense especially for the much of the sub-par product that's in the East END...

All the stuff that you've pulled together at Emirate's price points is old product and is not comparable to new product such as available in the East Downtown Warehouse District. And just comparing PSF measures isn't very effective across market areas because the areas that you consider better have older product mixed in while this one is entirely new.

My other ISSUE, is the amount of time it's taking to develop this area......They've been toying with this area since 1999, when they were clearing the area that's visible from Minute Maid park. Please do your homework....It's been almost 9 years and I'm sure when you moved to RM you know exactly what I'm speaking of...Is it better than 9 years ago? Sure, but where is the retail/parks/commerce? Do we have to wait 10 years for hardy yards, bayou clean up, etc..

You'll notice that I haven't yet brought up the Dynamo stadium being built in the East End Warehouse District. It is not that I just forgot about it...it's that stadia don't induce demand. It's been proven in other cities time and again, yet our investment community tried in 1999 and 2000 to pull together the argument that somehow it would in our case. It didn't fly.

Do we have to wait another 10 years for Hardy Yards? Likely. But it's north, not east. If you knew the investment geography of this area, you'd be asking about the KBR site. Bayou clean up is pretty much irrelevant right now, certainly in the context of the East Downtown Warehouse District. Nearby parks projects include Discovery Green, the Columbia Tap Hike & Bike, and the Harrisburg Hike & Bike. Retail is only as far away as the 2010 Census. It'll be supported not only by the new construction--and 3,000 new households will probably be pretty close--but also by demographic transistion within the original housing stock in Eastwood and other neighborhoods.

[sowanome]

All the stuff that you've pulled together at Emirate's price points is old product and is not comparable to new product such as available in the East Downtown Warehouse District. And just comparing PSF measures isn't very effective across market areas because the areas that you consider better have older product mixed in while this one is entirely new.

You'll notice that I haven't yet brought up the Dynamo stadium being built in the East End Warehouse District. It is not that I just forgot about it...it's that stadia don't induce demand. It's been proven in other cities time and again, yet our investment community tried in 1999 and 2000 to pull together the argument that somehow it would in our case. It didn't fly.

Do we have to wait another 10 years for Hardy Yards? Likely. But it's north, not east. If you knew the investment geography of this area, you'd be asking about the KBR site. Bayou clean up is pretty much irrelevant right now, certainly in the context of the East Downtown Warehouse District. Nearby parks projects include Discovery Green, the Columbia Tap Hike & Bike, and the Harrisburg Hike & Bike. Retail is only as far away as the 2010 Census. It'll be supported not only by the new construction--and 3,000 new households will probably be pretty close--but also by demographic transistion within the original housing stock in Eastwood and other neighborhoods.

Ok, enough with the talk....Please show listings, please. Also, like I said if we wait until 2010 for the census and retail follows in another 3 to 5 years, we are (2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015) NOT BAD....Just a ways a away. Are those parks really walking distance from the East End or just the lofts that are right off of 59??? Ok, enough with the talk....Please show listings, please.

[TheNiche]

Ok, enough with the talk....Please show listings, please. Also, like I said if we wait until 2010 for the census and retail follows in another 3 to 5 years, we are (2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015) NOT BAD....Just a ways a away. Ok, enough with the talk....Please show listings, please.

Why should I show listings when you already claim to have done the work and have all the answers? Eh?

[sowanome]

what product are you talking about specifically?

Exactly......

[musicman]

Exactly......

????

you mentioned a sub par product on the east side. what are you talking about specifically? when you don't provide data to back up your statements, it makes it difficult to believe what you're saying.

the same builders are building on the east and west sides which would mean there are also sub par products on the west side.

[sowanome]

????

you mentioned a sub par product on the east side. what are you talking about specifically? when you don't provide data to back up your statements, it makes it difficult to believe what you're saying.

the same builders are building on the east and west sides which would mean there are also sub par products on the west side.

Please post the har listings and you can believe me... And yes there are sub par products on the West side...

[sowanome]

Why should I show listings when you already claim to have done the work and have all the answers? Eh?

B/C, I've searched the area using HAR and it's not a pretty situation.... Please show me what you have in mind, NICHE! You really need to find your NICHE, b/c lying and placing false information on HAIF with the usage of technical/intelligent sounding verbage only shows that your ignorance and lack of maturity to what's the truth.

[musicman]

Please post the har listings and you can believe me... And yes there are sub par products on the West side...

I didn't make statements regarding sub par products on the east side, YOU did. so I have to provide listings???

the fallacious statements do nothing to further your argument.

[BryanS]

So... should the poster buy a loft or a townhome?

[musicman]

So... should the poster buy a loft or a townhome?

[TheNiche]

B/C, I've searched the area using HAR and it's not a pretty situation.... Please show me what you have in mind, NICHE! You really need to find your NICHE, b/c lying and placing false information on HAIF with the usage of technical/intelligent sounding verbage only shows that your ignorance and lack of maturity to what's the truth.

Make all the comparisons you like. The data speaks for itself.

http://www.waterhillcompany.com/communities.html

http://www.hhnhomes.com/newproperties.asp

http://www.northgatecustomhomes.com/homes_communities.html

http://www.perryhomes.com/Find-your-home/Houston.aspx

http://www.ak-customhomes.com/projects.html

http://urbanlofttownhomes.com/floorsite.html

http://houston.condo.com/MapSearch/MapSearch.aspx

[sowanome]

I didn't make statements regarding sub par products on the east side, YOU did. so I have to provide listings???

the fallacious statements do nothing to further your argument.

You did nothing to support your statement and you bailed out of finding product listings for the poster... Sorry, mr. musician, but within this post you are beginning to sound a lot like NICHE... I had a lot respect for you outside of this particular topic, but now I'm really beginning to question you and your knowledge. Please don't turn into NICHE, Please don't..... I hope NICHE see's this, b/c with his rant about superficial women and cars, really made him sound like a sexist pig, and there's no shortage of those in TEXAS...

Townhome

[TheNiche]

You did nothing to support your statement and you bailed out of finding product listings for the poster... Sorry, mr. musician, but within this post you are beginning to sound a lot like NICHE... I had a lot respect for you outside of this particular topic, but now I'm really beginning to question you and your knowledge. Please don't turn into NICHE, Please don't..... I hope NICHE see's this, b/c with his rant about superficial women and cars, really made him sound like a sexist pig, and there's no shortage of those in TEXAS...

I don't like materialistic women. If that's something that makes me sexist pig, then I guess I'm a sexist pig.

[sowanome]

Make all the comparisons you like. The data speaks for itself.

http://www.waterhillcompany.com/communities.html

http://www.hhnhomes.com/newproperties.asp

http://www.northgatecustomhomes.com/homes_communities.html

http://www.perryhomes.com/Find-your-home/Houston.aspx

http://www.ak-customhomes.com/projects.html

http://urbanlofttownhomes.com/floorsite.html

http://houston.condo.com/MapSearch/MapSearch.aspx

WOW! all of this data.... Okay, if you're not buying at the 160k level, what's the point in spending 280k, when you can the same product in a more developed part of the inner loop???? Again, I present the retail, commerce, park activity level, bum activity level issue. Why not buy in parts of houston at the same price where it takes you the same amount of time to travel downtown to various grocery stores, and shopping (4 to 5 mins regardless of rush hour) versus an area where you must hope for a grocery store and the nearest coffee shop is the MAXWELL Refinery!!!

Also, where do the kids play in these areas.... Oh, i forgot you have to wait a few years for that. By the time the crack houses are gone and the 18 wheelers aren't dropping off items to the Wharehouses, the kids will be teenagers. Hey, but it'll be better than it was when they were 6! As far as appreciation in the east end area, I'm sure you can get it, but how long must you hold??? You'd basically have to hold onto to your place until 2015. do you know another reason why they are building this area??? It's alternative to those who can't afford to live in TMC, RM or Midtown. I'm just telling the truth... Go to the east end and kick up some dust with my peeps from the wards (2nd, 3rd, 5th) for a few years.....It's all good, they'll take good of you, your home and your car. That's a heck of a place to get sandwiched in between....

Only thing i remember about Lockwood in the 5th (ward), was Bucktown, The Bottle and Hookers....It's all good they will be your neighbors

Only thing I remember about the 2nd (ward), is Bienvenidos el ward dos, (Welcome to 2nd ward), and its' Plasma donation center....It's all good, they'll be your neighbors

Only thing I remember about the upper 3rd ward area, is the crackheads, hookers and d-boys (Dope boys) that hold shop behind Carpet Giant, and if you need any kind of Narcotics "They got IT"....It's all good they'll be your neighbors...

It's crazy that were arguing over the hood in here, it's really the hood and notorious for being the hood (All 3 of them), and it'll take a lot longer to clear this area, than it took to clear Allen Parkway projects and 4th ward...(they've been doing that since 1994) 13 years.....

They've been trying to clean up the area East of the Ballpark since 1999...Look where we are now, this reminds me of Comiskey park in Chicago, where the WhiteSox play... It'll never be Wrigley Field or Wrigleyville(the neighborhood where the Cubs play). It doesn't matter how much gentrification occurs, East End will always be a 3rd or 4th Tier area. Let's not forget the amount of affordable housing in that area. It's not going anywhere...What high end area is the EAST END attached to?

None.....I have no further comment.

No further comment....

[musicman]

You did nothing to support your statement and you bailed out of finding product listings for the poster.

LOL. i've only reponded to your statements, which aren't backed by fact. so how are those listings on the sub par products on the east side coming along?

the poster only asked about pros and cons of a loft vs. a townhome whereever it may be. she's happy living downtown in a loft and it seems your statements about how hot the area supposedly is have not changed her mind.

[sowanome]

LOL. i've only reponded to your statements, which aren't backed by fact. so how are those listings on the sub par products on the east side coming along?

the poster only asked about pros and cons of a loft vs. a townhome whereever it may be. she's happy living downtown in a loft and it seems your statements about how hot the area supposedly is have not changed her mind.

I agree and I voiced my opinion about the area....Back to the topic, I feel that a townhome has a larger resell consumer base when the time comes!

Thanks for keeping me on track!!!