NYC Running Vintage Transit Buses

[MetroMogul]

NYC is running vintage buses from it's sizable museum fleet on select routes in Manhattan this month and it looks to be a good PR move. Metro also has a smaller museum fleet that's in pretty good shape that sits in a fenced off area around the Polk Depot. I think Metro should run a few "Retro Metro" buses and center some sort of PR campaign around it. It could possibly give the agency a bit of good publicity at least for a moment.

[JLWM8609]

I didn't know Metro still had some old buses. Do they have some of the GMC RTS and Flixible/Grumman transit buses still?

[ssullivan]

Very cool. I didn't know Metro was holding on to a museum fleet either.

[MidtownCoog]

I think we'd get better publicity by running some old school routmasters:

[JLWM8609]

Here's Metro's old school fleet.

From L to R, we have an Eagle coach, a Flixible or Grumman Transit, another Flixible or Grumman Transit, a Ferroni transit, two GMC RTS transits, and another Eagle coach.

I think it would be a good idea to run some of those buses when Metro celebrates 30 years of service in 2009. Those two buses on the right hand, the GMC with the AC box on the top and the Eagle with the vista windows on the top are likely 1979 model year buses.

[dbigtex56]

the GMC with the AC box on the top and the Eagle with the vista windows on the top are likely 1979 model year buses.

I remember when those GMC buses first came out that people were hugely impressed at how sleek and modern they appeared. How strange to think they've already achieved 'retro' status.

[ricco67]

That kinda' scared me initially. I was thinking about the Buses BEFORE metro took over.

God, I hated those things, thank god I was young and didn't know better.

[JLWM8609]

I was hoping they kept at least ONE GMC fishbowl bus, it doesn't look like it, unless it's parked elsewhere.

[MetroMogul]

Thanks, for the picture. Maybe I should forward the idea to Metro as I would definitely love to ride one of the GMC RTS again and even the Grumman. Metro was built on the back of the RTS and in my opinion hasn't been the same since they retired these classics in 2001.

The Grumman and the Eagle with the faux upper deck are 1979 models. The GMC RTS-01 is a 1978 model and the other GMC RTS is a 1983 model. And yes, there is one Fishbowl left in the old red and white Metro scheme. It's in total disrepair but they move it around the retired bus yard from time to time to make room for whatever they are tossing out at the moment. It's parked on Labco.

[memebag]

No one but a bus nerd would notice the difference if they put those on the street. How much PR does Metro need with the bus nerd demographic?

[MetroMogul]

Bus nerd? How old are you, 16? Give me a break, "dude." Anywhoodles, you'd be surprised what the general public would notice, particularly since most of Metro's bus fleet consists of rolling shoeboxes.

[marmer]

Here's Metro's old school fleet.

Hey, those aren't school buses!

[marmer]

Here's a question for the bus nerds... I use the term with the utmost respect, sorta being one myself. I seem to remember when the Flxibles were put into service there were a lot of serious problems with the A/C among other things. Because of that Metro brought a bunch of GMC "fishbowls" back into temporary service, and even bought/leased/borrowed some fishbowls from San Antonio. They were a common sight in the early-mid 80's until the Flxibles got sorted out/replaced. It would seem likely there must be a few around. Am I just making that up, or does anyone else remember it?

[JLWM8609]

Here's a question for the bus nerds... I use the term with the utmost respect, sorta being one myself. I seem to remember when the Flxibles were put into service there were a lot of serious problems with the A/C among other things. Because of that Metro brought a bunch of GMC "fishbowls" back into temporary service, and even bought/leased/borrowed some fishbowls from San Antonio. They were a common sight in the early-mid 80's until the Flxibles got sorted out/replaced. It would seem likely there must be a few around. Am I just making that up, or does anyone else remember it?

I grew up in the late 80s/early 90s, so I just barely remember the "slantback" RTS-01s being retired in favor of the Ikarus USA/American Ikarus models (I think they retired the last one a few months ago) between 1989 and 1993, and no recollection of the fishbowls. But I do remember reading this roster chart online reporting that one of the early Flixibles burned up, and was replaced. If I can, I might drive by that Metro bus graveyard that metromogul mentioned and see if I see any fishbowls sitting out there. I had a cousin who used to be a bus driver for Metro, and she said they were operating fishbowls out of the NW side garage in the early 90s.

[marmer]

Live Search birdseye appears to show a fishbowl next to one of the entrances to the yard at 1215 Labco. I'm too lazy to post a cap, but you can look for yourself.

[JLWM8609]

From live search, it looks like the yard is full of the recently retired Ikarus buses, a few of the older New Flyer 40ft low floors, a few Neoplan AN-460s, and what I think is an early 80s Ikarus articulated.

[memebag]

Bus nerd? How old are you, 16? Give me a break, "dude." Anywhoodles, you'd be surprised what the general public would notice, particularly since most of Metro's bus fleet consists of rolling shoeboxes.

I'm 42. I meant no disrespect to bus nerds. I'm not one, but I have my own "specific and narrow areas of interest". The busses in that picture look pretty much like any busses I see on the street. Big, red-white-and-blue, with wheels on the bottom and some windows. I think if you poll random citizens you'll find they wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

[MetroMogul]

Here's a question for the bus nerds... I use the term with the utmost respect, sorta being one myself. I seem to remember when the Flxibles were put into service there were a lot of serious problems with the A/C among other things. Because of that Metro brought a bunch of GMC "fishbowls" back into temporary service, and even bought/leased/borrowed some fishbowls from San Antonio. They were a common sight in the early-mid 80's until the Flxibles got sorted out/replaced. It would seem likely there must be a few around. Am I just making that up, or does anyone else remember it?

The slantback RTS-01s had the A/C problem and an engine problem as a result. The A/C unit on the top replaced the woefully underpowered factory unit that was housed in the slope. I'm glad Metro went for the roof mount unit instead of installing a "backpack" unit over the slope and killing the beautiful design of the bus. Unfortunately later in life these buses started burning up.

The Grumman buses were taken out of service due to numerous structural and electrical malfunctions. 100 were rebuilt in 1983 and lasted until late 1997. They were in the 1600 series. They had a loud, robust engine and rattled like hell compared to their somewhat quieter 2200 series cousins.

I didn't know Metro leased Fishbowls from San Antonio. I thought the 33, 34, and 3600 series rehabs were all rebuilt from various Rapid Transit Lines buses. And I hated the diesel Ikarus buses for a long time but had a slight liking for the 2600 series LNG Ikarus buses, the last of which, 2602, was retired in the spring of this year.

Metro used to have such an interesting fleet of buses and a variety of routes that actually went somewhere. Now it seems like a McMetro for back of a better term.

[JLWM8609]

The slantback RTS-01s had the A/C problem and an engine problem as a result. The A/C unit on the top replaced the woefully underpowered factory unit that was housed in the slope. I'm glad Metro went for the roof mount unit instead of installing a "backpack" unit over the slope and killing the beautiful design of the bus. Unfortunately later in life these buses started burning up.

I saw a 1600 or 1700 series Grumman out there at the yard yesterday. The Grumman buses were taken out of service due to numerous structural and electrical malfunctions. 100 were rebuilt in 1983 and lasted until late 1997. They were in the 1600 series. They had a loud, robust engine and rattled like hell compared to their somewhat quieter 2200 series cousins.

I didn't know Metro leased Fishbowls from San Antonio. I thought the 33, 34, and 3600 series rehabs were all rebuilt from various Rapid Transit Lines buses. And I hated the diesel Ikarus buses for a long time but had a slight liking for the 2600 series LNG Ikarus buses, the last of which, 2602, was retired in the spring of this year.

Metro used to have such an interesting fleet of buses and a variety of routes that actually went somewhere. Now it seems like a McMetro for back of a better term.

The Grumman you saw at the yard was a 1700 series, though I don't know if it really is a Grumman, I think it too was a Flixible. It has the faux grille on the front, the Grummans didn't have that. I read Metro had some Grummans in the 800 series, but nothing listed in the 1600 and 1700 series. Maybe the 800 series Grummans were the ones replaced by Fishbowls. I remember seeing the 2200 series Flixibles running as late as 1999 or 2000, with the silver style rims you now see on the new buses as opposed to the original blue painted ones. I thought they were going to stay on a little longer, because I saw one around that time headed north on 288 near Holly Hall. It had updated rear lights, instead of two brake lights at the top and bottom and an amber turn signal in the middle, or the stop light at the top, reverse lamp in the middle, and red turn signal at the bottom, this one had a combo of a red stop light, amber turn signal, and reverse lamp, similar to this.

I'd seen nothing like that before on Houston Flixibles, and when Metro usually updated the lights on a bus like that (like the GMCs in the early 90s and Ikaruses and Mercedes-Benz buses in the mid-late 90s), that meant the buses still had some life left, maybe 5-10 more years. I remember in the early to mid 90s, it seemed like I didn't see the Flixibles for a while, then they all of a sudden came back. I think the 1600 series Flixibles ran the special TMC lines until the late 90s, then the GMC RTS-04s ran them until early 2001, and the Ikarus's ran them until earlier this year. Now, the older 30 and 40 foot New Flyers run the special TMC lines.

I'm really working the brain tonight on these buses. It seemed as if the 1600 series had a slightly different rear facsia than the 2200 series. The 1600s had two dot style supplemental brake lights mounted at the bottom of the engine cover, while the 2200 series had them mounted more towards the top of the engine cover. I also think the 1600s had their exhausts routed up to the roof, while the 2200s had a conventional "tailpipe" exhaust. And those Flixibles had some CRAZY body roll in turns. I remember seeing them lean like this through the intersection when turning left onto OST from Scott on the way to the Southeast Transit Center.

[MetroMogul]

The Grumman you saw at the yard was a 1700 series, though I don't know if it really is a Grumman, I think it too was a Flixible. It has the faux grille on the front, the Grummans didn't have that. I read Metro had some Grummans in the 800 series, but nothing listed in the 1600 and 1700 series. Maybe the 800 series Grummans were the ones replaced by Fishbowls. I remember seeing the 2200 series Flixibles running as late as 1999 or 2000, with the silver style rims you now see on the new buses as opposed to the original blue painted ones. I thought they were going to stay on a little longer, because I saw one around that time headed north on 288 near Holly Hall. It had updated rear lights, instead of two brake lights at the top and bottom and an amber turn signal in the middle, or the stop light at the top, reverse lamp in the middle, and red turn signal at the bottom, this one had a combo of a red stop light, amber turn signal, and reverse lamp, similar to this.

I'd seen nothing like that before on Houston Flixibles, and when Metro usually updated the lights on a bus like that (like the GMCs in the early 90s and Ikaruses and Mercedes-Benz buses in the mid-late 90s), that meant the buses still had some life left, maybe 5-10 more years. I remember in the early to mid 90s, it seemed like I didn't see the Flixibles for a while, then they all of a sudden came back. I think the 1600 series Flixibles ran the special TMC lines until the late 90s, then the GMC RTS-04s ran them until early 2001, and the Ikarus's ran them until earlier this year. Now, the older 30 and 40 foot New Flyers run the special TMC lines.

I'm really working the brain tonight on these buses. It seemed as if the 1600 series had a slightly different rear facsia than the 2200 series. The 1600s had two dot style supplemental brake lights mounted at the bottom of the engine cover, while the 2200 series had them mounted more towards the top of the engine cover. I also think the 1600s had their exhausts routed up to the roof, while the 2200s had a conventional "tailpipe" exhaust. And those Flixibles had some CRAZY body roll in turns. I remember seeing them lean like this through the intersection when turning left onto OST from Scott on the way to the Southeast Transit Center.

The Flxible in the yard is indeed a 1600 series Grumman (1627 to be exact outfitted with aluminum rims) rebuilt from the 326 bus (800-1125) order of 1979 Grumman 870s. 226 were retired in 1982 and 100 were sent back to Grumman-Flxible to be rebuilt and updated to match the current Metro A models being produced. The result was the 1600 series buses that arrived in 1983. They had the faux grill but kept the roof top exhaust (some buses had variations like 1668, 1679, and 1685) and the extremely loud 8v71 engines. These buses ended their lives at West garage running mainly on the 2 - Bellaire during rush hour.

A few of the 2200 series buses did receive the aluminum rims towards the end of their lives such as 2234, 2249 and 2272. The last few 2200/2300 series Flxibles ended their lives at Hiram Clarke garage running on the 5, 52, and TMC lines. This would also be the fate of the remaining GMC RTS-04 in early 2001 and the 1993 Ikarus buses in 2007.

[JLWM8609]

Here's that Fishbowl.

Check out that late 50's GM design. That AC unit seems to have some "tailfin" influence to it like the GM cars of the era did.

[MetroMogul]

That's one of the original 1961 "dreamliner" New Looks. It was probably about 20 or so when it was retired given the early Metro paint scheme.

[JLWM8609]

It would be nice if METRO could do a refurbishing of that fishbowl, paint it in the original 1961 Rapid Transit Lines scheme, or the 1979 Metro scheme or even the current scheme and bring it out at special events.

[Standeck]

I like the name "Retro Metro"; it's almost as good as the "Temporary Contemporary" museum in Los Angeles.

It's too bad Houston Metro can't buy, refurb and re-use historic rolling stock the way San Francisco's Muni has done.

[marmer]

While I'm as much of a fan of old iron as the next guy, I couldn't help noticing how small that fishbowl is compared to the other buses. Assuming they could restore it and some of the other ones (RTS, anyone?) could they plausibly put one on a modern route, or would it be too much of a reduction in amenity, performance, handling, reliability, etc. to be worthwhile?

[JLWM8609]

One issue with those older buses is that they don't have wheelchair lifts or bike racks. Montgomery, AL had some fishbowls with wheelchair lifts into the late 90s, so they can be retrofitted. The fishbowl in question is a 35 footer. I've got no idea what the top speed and acceleration data is to compare with new buses, but they could probably run it on a route that calls for a 30 footer bus.

[MetroMogul]

While I'm as much of a fan of old iron as the next guy, I couldn't help noticing how small that fishbowl is compared to the other buses. Assuming they could restore it and some of the other ones (RTS, anyone?) could they plausibly put one on a modern route, or would it be too much of a reduction in amenity, performance, handling, reliability, etc. to be worthwhile?

That 35 foot fishbowl would be perfect for a route like the 42 - Holman Crosstown, a route that uses 40 foot buses, but seemingly never has more than five people on the bus at a time. And interestingly enough, the RTS and Flxibles buses can seat about 50 people compared to the current New Flyer fleet and the aisles are more able to handle standees. The only problem is the lack of W/C lift. The RTS-01s can kneel though and the Grummans had W/C lifts but they threw the front door out of alignment so the rebuilt buses had them removed.

Buses missing from Metro's historical fleet include the 1985 Crown articualted buses (Houston's first), the 1986 30ft. Neoplan mini buses, the 1986 Neoplan 40ft. Park and Ride buses, the 1990 Marco Polo mini buses built by Stewart and Stevenson, the short lived Goshen microbuses that were the subject of a Chron news article, any form of Ikarus both diesel and LNG versions, the 1992 Mercedes buses built by S&S and the old 1993 Neoplan artics.

[JLWM8609]

I think Metro still has a 30ft Neoplan, a 40ft Mercedes-Benz, and 40ft Ikarus still in the fleet. Metro Police use them. I see the 30ft Neoplan parked at TransStar on Old Katy Rd. and out and about at special events, I see the Ikarus parked at the Buffalo Bayou facility, now with special paint, and police lights, and I saw the Mercedes-Benz bus not too long ago with the special paint scheme. I think it was a portable Metro store.

It looks like the next buses up for retirement are the early 90s Neoplan Metroliners. I'm surprised they're still here, being a dieselhead too, I love those loud, smoky engines. They aren't LNG, are they? They have the LNG sticker on them, but sound like diesels to me. I love to hear them go by, roaring onto I-45 with all their slow might when I'm sitting on the deck at UHD. I thought those 1999-2000 New Flyer Coaches and MCIs would phase them out, but I think those New Flyer Coaches were more for replacing the 84-85 Eagles in the fleet.

[MetroMogul]

I think Metro still has a 30ft Neoplan, a 40ft Mercedes-Benz, and 40ft Ikarus still in the fleet. Metro Police use them. I see the 30ft Neoplan parked at TransStar on Old Katy Rd. and out and about at special events, I see the Ikarus parked at the Buffalo Bayou facility, now with special paint, and police lights, and I saw the Mercedes-Benz bus not too long ago with the special paint scheme. I think it was a portable Metro store.

It looks like the next buses up for retirement are the early 90s Neoplan Metroliners. I'm surprised they're still here, being a dieselhead too, I love those loud, smoky engines. They aren't LNG, are they? They have the LNG sticker on them, but sound like diesels to me. I love to hear them go by, roaring onto I-45 with all their slow might when I'm sitting on the deck at UHD. I thought those 1999-2000 New Flyer Coaches and MCIs would phase them out, but I think those New Flyer Coaches were more for replacing the 84-85 Eagles in the fleet.

They are diesel buses but they did use LNG for a few years in the beginning. The Metroliners and their articulated cousins (the 1400s) used to have more mellow sounding engines but somewhere along the line they became very deep and loud sort of like the old Eagles and some of the Flxibles that had EXTREMELY loud engines. 2211 and 2221 come to mind. Those buses sounded like Eagle coaches on take off and made a loud vacuum sound that could be heard for miles. Sort of like bacon frying.

[JLWM8609]

Go to this page to see what Metro's fleet was like in 1998.

http://web.archive.org/web/19980208160436/...x.us/MFACTS.HTM

They had some good variety in the fleet at that time. They had the Crown 60', Eagle 10, Ferroni 30', Flixibles, GMCs, Ikaruses, Marco Polos, Mercedes-Benzes, Neoplans (in 60', 45', 40', and 30'), and 40' New Flyers.