NYC Running Vintage Transit Buses

[JLWM8609]

Hey MetroMogul, I know this will bring you back some memories of those old 1600-1700 series Grummans.

Didn't the RTS-01s sound like that too?

[JLWM8609]

I just participated in the open discussion with Frank Wilson. Here's his response about running vintage buses.

Q : NYC's MTA maintains a small fleet of historic buses to showcase at events and will even operate them on routes periodically. I know Metro has one GMC Fishbowl bus dating from1960s left at the facility off of McCarthy and a few Eagle, GMC, and Flixible/Grumman buses from the 70s-90s parked at the Polk facility. Do you have plans to restore these buses and implement as NYC has done with their historic fleets?

A : No, we don't. We are attempting to upgrade and rejuvenate our bus fleet by purchasing 100 buses/year, every year and equip those buses with more environmental friendly power plants called hybrid-electric drive engines, which not only clean the air but economize on fuel consumption. We have to stretch every precious dollar as far as possible. And our commitment to history will be a higher quality of life and more transit service for more people in more areas.

[ricco67]

I just participated in the open discussion with Frank Wilson. Here's his response about running vintage buses.

Well, it is good to hear that metro is buying that many buses a year, but to what end? Is there a specific number that will be "capped?" What is the lifespan of a bus?

[JLWM8609]

Well, it is good to hear that metro is buying that many buses a year, but to what end? Is there a specific number that will be "capped?" What is the lifespan of a bus?

The useful lifespan of a bus is as long as they can maintain it. Some fleets are running buses that are pushing 30 if not over that mark with newer, cleaner engines, LED lamps, etc...

Metro's concerned with their visible image, but you can have all the new buses you want and have crappy service, right? I think Metro typically gets about 15 years out of a bus before they retire them. They started retiring their 1978 year model buses around 1992, the furthest I've personally seen them go is about 17 years on the newer 1984 GMC RTS models they retired in 2001. The buses that they're retiring now are from the 1993-1997 timeframe, though I've seen them retire buses that are less than 10 years old (Mercedes-Benz and Feronni models back in 2000).

[MetroMogul]

Actually, the most Metro has gotten out of their buses is I'd say about 30 years. When Metro was rehabbing it's New Looks in the early 80's, a few from the 1961 order snuck in there and they lasted until about 1990-91. These were the 3300-34xx series of buses.

The 1600 series Grummans lasted until late 1997. They were 1983 rebuilds of the original 1979 Grumman 870 order, making them 18 years old. These were extremely rough buses. They always used them on the 2 - Bellaire during rush hours but you could find them on other routes as well. West Garage had about 35 of these and every afternoon about 20 or so would be on the 2 - Bellaire mixed in with RTS and the then new 4500 series artics.

The RTS-04 buses were 1981-83 models. A couple of the 1981 buses made it to 2001 to be retired along with the rest of their brethren. All of the S&S buses were also retired in 2001 along with a number of 11 year old Ikarus buses.

And it sucks Wilson won't run vintage buses. But that doesn't mix well into his railroad robber baron philosophy I suppose.

I also get the dreaded feeling that he will sell those buses for scrap since he probably thinks they are useless. I'm almost certain he didn't have any knowledge of them until that question was posed. That would really suck too because there were only 350 RTS-01s built and this is probably one of a handful that can run.

[houstonmacbro]

NYC is running vintage buses from it's sizable museum fleet on select routes in Manhattan this month and it looks to be a good PR move. Metro also has a smaller museum fleet that's in pretty good shape that sits in a fenced off area around the Polk Depot. I think Metro should run a few "Retro Metro" buses and center some sort of PR campaign around it. It could possibly give the agency a bit of good publicity at least for a moment.

No. They should get the regular ones running more often and to more locations. Couldn't give a rat's behind if they are vintage or not.

[MetroMogul]

No. They should get the regular ones running more often and to more locations. Couldn't give a rat's behind if they are vintage or not.

First of all, how are you going to tell me no, as if I asked your opinion. I wasn't trying to gain a general consensus. And if you step outside of your restrictive "one way or the other" box for a second, you'd realize that Metro could do this while at the same time improving it's terrible and outdated bus service. New York manages to do it, why not this great city? Oh yeah, because so many people here harbor the same, stubborn, ancient, balck and white attitudes and shove it in your face as if THIS is the only way.

[baron]

Houston Metro, and its predecessors, have never had much of an interest in historic preservation, so it's not surprising that they have no plans to operate a "historic" fleet. What IS surprising is that there are any older buses left on the property.

Many cities much smaller than Houston have found the resources to restore at least one older bus for use in parades, special events, etc. In many cases, these buses have been restored and maintained by the volunteer labor of transit company employees, as a sort of "club" activity. The usual arrangement is that the volunteers do the actual restoration work (after regular hours), while the transit authority provides use of shop tools and a place to store the buses. Seattle is a very good example of this arrangement, and has a beautiful historic fleet to show for it.

I agree with previous comments that the buses of the 1970s- 1990's wouldn't make much of an impression on the general public, but if that GM fishbowl was restored, people would definitely notice! It's a real shame that some of the older buses weren't saved; I can remember seeing restorable White 788's from the 1940's in a Houston junkyard as late as around 1990.

This is my first post on the forum, so I should introduce myself. My name is Steve Baron and in 1995 I published a book on the Houston streetcar system called "Houston Electric." I live in Kentucky now but I still try to keep up with what's going on in Houston.

[musicman]

welcome to haif

[editor]

Chicago has a number of its "classic" buses on the road, but they aren't run for PR. They're run at night when the regular buses are (presumably) being cleaned and maintained.

You have to wonder about the environmental impact of these old buses. If a modern car puts out 10% of the pollution of a car from the 70's, I wonder if the same can be said of revitalizing a fleet of diesel-belching old buses.

[JLWM8609]

You have to wonder about the environmental impact of these old buses. If a modern car puts out 10% of the pollution of a car from the 70's, I wonder if the same can be said of revitalizing a fleet of diesel-belching old buses.

I don't think 5 buses out of hundreds counts as a "fleet". Though I'll tell you, diesels are not as dirty as the media portrays them to be. We have this new diesel fuel called Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD), much cleaner than the old stuff. My old 25 year old diesel car doesn't put out black smoke anymore as a result of the new fuel because it burns cleaner. If you see a diesel belching black smoke, it's either got a fuel delivery problem or it hasn't had all of the carbon in the engine blown out during a good highway drive. Many diesels are now burning cleaner than their gas counterparts nowadays because of this new fuel as well as new advances in diesel technology. Biodiesel, though it burns faster, will also reduce emissions a bit.

[houstonmacbro]

First of all, how are you going to tell me no, as if I asked your opinion. I wasn't trying to gain a general consensus. And if you step outside of your restrictive "one way or the other" box for a second, you'd realize that Metro could do this while at the same time improving it's terrible and outdated bus service. New York manages to do it, why not this great city? Oh yeah, because so many people here harbor the same, stubborn, ancient, balck and white attitudes and shove it in your face as if THIS is the only way.

Calm down dude.

[fop98]

I think Metro still has a 30ft Neoplan, a 40ft Mercedes-Benz, and 40ft Ikarus still in the fleet. Metro Police use them. I see the 30ft Neoplan parked at TransStar on Old Katy Rd. and out and about at special events, I see the Ikarus parked at the Buffalo Bayou facility, now with special paint, and police lights, and I saw the Mercedes-Benz bus not too long ago with the special paint scheme. I think it was a portable Metro store.

.

We have a picture of the Metro PD "Command Bus" on our website- www.fop98.org, along with other METRO busses on the PHOTO page.

[H-Town Man]

Here's that Fishbowl.

Check out that late 50's GM design. That AC unit seems to have some "tailfin" influence to it like the GM cars of the era did.

That is awesome.

Get some Bond-O and make this thing happen!

[MetroMogul]

Well, they're gone, or that's what Ive been told. They were all sold, some of them to the local Peterbuilt for their engines and transmissions. That means the shells will be going to scrap. This is a terrible tragedy. That RTS-01 was one of 350 built and probably one of two that was in good, running shape. The other is in Long Beach, California. That Grumman and Eagle 05 are also quite rare. It's sad Metro has no sense of history. It's not like those buses were in terrible shape, some of them had been kept up for almost 20 years after retirement.

[JLWM8609]

Well, they're gone, or that's what Ive been told. They were all sold, some of them to the local Peterbuilt for their engines and transmissions. That means the shells will be going to scrap. This is a terrible tragedy. That RTS-01 was one of 350 built and probably one of two that was in good, running shape. The other is in Long Beach, California. That Grumman and Eagle 05 are also quite rare. It's sad Metro has no sense of history. It's not like those buses were in terrible shape, some of them had been kept up for almost 20 years after retirement.

I noticed that when I passed by the place back in December. During one of the live chats, I asked the leader of Metro if they had plans to refurbish those buses and his answer was something sappy about "our legacy to history will be new buses that help clean our air." He needs to go suck a diesel tail pipe.

[plumber2]

The slantback RTS-01s had the A/C problem and an engine problem as a result. The A/C unit on the top replaced the woefully underpowered factory unit that was housed in the slope. I'm glad Metro went for the roof mount unit instead of installing a "backpack" unit over the slope and killing the beautiful design of the bus. Unfortunately later in life these buses started burning up.

The Grumman buses were taken out of service due to numerous structural and electrical malfunctions. 100 were rebuilt in 1983 and lasted until late 1997. They were in the 1600 series. They had a loud, robust engine and rattled like hell compared to their somewhat quieter 2200 series cousins.

I didn't know Metro leased Fishbowls from San Antonio. I thought the 33, 34, and 3600 series rehabs were all rebuilt from various Rapid Transit Lines buses. And I hated the diesel Ikarus buses for a long time but had a slight liking for the 2600 series LNG Ikarus buses, the last of which, 2602, was retired in the spring of this year.

Metro used to have such an interesting fleet of buses and a variety of routes that actually went somewhere. Now it seems like a McMetro for back of a better term.

The news media made a story out of San Antonio coming to the rescue by loaning out (leasing) it's unused Dreamliners to Houston. One of the news crews even went out 1-10, somewhere around Columbus, to do a "live shot" showing the line of buses headed our way.

[rsb320]

Fresh Air Friday was held in Jones Plaza today. It's an event held annually to promote clean energy, etc. Free food, drink and handouts, etc.

Anyway, I'm posting on this thread because Metro had a new, cleaner bus parked out front. I should have paid better attention and should have gone inside, but I was stuffing my face. I could swear the poster on the side said Daimler. Does anybody know what model buses the new ones will be? On the back, an LED reads STOP when the brakes are applied.

[marmer]

Probably one of the new Orion VII Next Generation hybrids. They are under the umbrella of the company formerly known as Daimler-Benz and DaimlerChrysler; they sell Orion and Setra buses and Sprinter shuttle-type buses here in the USA. I believe the American subsidiary is called Daimler Buses North America now. In other markets they sell Mercedes-badged buses.

[MetroMogul]

I know this is an old topic, but I'm still pretty disgusted that the Wilson administration scrapped these buses during the "Decade of Darkness" for Metro. After the main historical fleet of buses were scrapped, the little Fishbowl held on staying buried in the yard on Labco. Recently I went back and even it was gone. There's nothing there now but three recently retired New Flyers in pretty decent shape and dozens of decrepit MetroLift vans. I do secretly hope that Metro is just "hiding" it's historical fleet somewhere and I was misinformed. They do have an "antique" bus they trot out VERY RARELY for special events and it was never with the other group of historical buses. Perhaps Metro sent those other buses to join it. One can dream.