Metro Solutions: Phase III

[Trae]

I heard the the 290 Commuter line would only take 18 months to build. The right of way is already there, so I think we will be seeing that by 2015, or so. I don't remember METRO's exact timeline on the 290 commuter.

[desirous]

Does anyone know what the plans are for Southeast Line and Hobby?

[Trae]

METRO Solutions Phase III

Looking at his map, it seems that he has the Southeast/Green Line and East End Line going north to the Intermodal Station. The Inner Katy/Yellow Line could swoop north to the Intermodal, too. I wonder if METRO would do this once Phase III rolls around and the Inner Katy/Yellow line is built (got a ways to go until though).

[desirous]

If that many lanes interline on the Red Line route, they may need to expand that segment to four tracks.

[ricco67]

Looking at his map, it seems that he has the Southeast/Green Line and East End Line going north to the Intermodal Station. The Inner Katy/Yellow Line could swoop north to the Intermodal, too. I wonder if METRO would do this once Phase III rolls around and the Inner Katy/Yellow line is built (got a ways to go until though).

You know, looking at the map more and more, I'm not really thrilled about the potential commuter line from sugarland's connection.

The reason I'm saying this is that as it currently stands, the Red line will be totally overwhelmed (depending on capacity and frequency of the Sugarland Express, as I like to call it) by the people unloading. The wheeler station would be the closest way for people to move out to Uptown or Greenway plaza.

As of today the redline is pretty much operating at capacity (with the current train configuration) up to the med center and it then fills up again at wheeler. There has to be a seperate line that will have to put in to alleviate a potential bottle neck of Japanese train crowding proportions.

[desirous]

You know, looking at the map more and more, I'm not really thrilled about the potential commuter line from sugarland's connection.

The reason I'm saying this is that as it currently stands, the Red line will be totally overwhelmed (depending on capacity and frequency of the Sugarland Express, as I like to call it) by the people unloading. The wheeler station would be the closest way for people to move out to Uptown or Greenway plaza.

As of today the redline is pretty much operating at capacity (with the current train configuration) up to the med center and it then fills up again at wheeler. There has to be a seperate line that will have to put in to alleviate a potential bottle neck of Japanese train crowding proportions.

In the long run, what suffers most is car traffic. Rail capacity is easy to increase: simply add more trains. Since the Red Line is at grade, that would mean significant disruptions to signal timing on all cross streets.

[ricco67]

In the long run, what suffers most is car traffic. Rail capacity is easy to increase: simply add more trains. Since the Red Line is at grade, that would mean significant disruptions to signal timing on all cross streets.

If I remember properly, the current configuration (Sieman's Avanto S70) has a capacity of 150 per car, or 300 per typical setup. Theoretically you can squeeze in 200 per car. I've seen it done, and yes, I counted and with me not counting EVERY person. Hello! I'm a nerd!

At the height of capacity you can have 400-450 (theoretically) every 3 minutes.

Since they can't add cars to a "train" this is the very capacity of the light rail system (if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me) as the current configuration allows.

If metro is smart, they will buy trains that will allow for an additional 75-100 of capacity per train (200 or 250 per car), raising it to 500 which might be able to increase it significantly by cramming people like they do with the current train setup.

BUT, I think it would help a bit more if another line would connect with the South Fannin station for a greater flexibility for people that want to go to other destinations without having to go through the Med Center.

But what do I know, I'm just a moron without the benefit of a 10,000 watt radio station.

[Highway6]

Looking at his map, it seems that he has the Southeast/Green Line and East End Line going north to the Intermodal Station. The Inner Katy/Yellow Line could swoop north to the Intermodal, too. I wonder if METRO would do this once Phase III rolls around and the Inner Katy/Yellow line is built (got a ways to go until though).

This map is old and schematic. Christof's more recent map of the phase II lines show them going into downtown and not the intermodal station.

The current drawings from Metro do not have these lines intersecting the Redline at the Intermodal... but instead going up Capitol and Rusk. Of course, this was when BRT was proposed too... so who knows if what aspects they are rethinking.

If these lines intersect the Red at the Intermodal.. it makes the intermodal station have more importance, but it's also not as convenient since its a half mile from the edge of downtown. If they intersect somewhere between the Preston stop and the Main street square stop, it will be more convenient.. course it will diminish the reason for having the intermodal.

I think if these lines do roll into downtown instead of the Intermodal, its almost a given that the Inner Katy line will do the same. Tthe innerkaty line will actually be an extension out the west side of downtown of the southeast line just like the north line is merely an extension of the redline.

[roadrunner]

You know, looking at the map more and more, I'm not really thrilled about the potential commuter line from sugarland's connection.

The reason I'm saying this is that as it currently stands, the Red line will be totally overwhelmed (depending on capacity and frequency of the Sugarland Express, as I like to call it) by the people unloading. The wheeler station would be the closest way for people to move out to Uptown or Greenway plaza.

As of today the redline is pretty much operating at capacity (with the current train configuration) up to the med center and it then fills up again at wheeler. There has to be a seperate line that will have to put in to alleviate a potential bottle neck of Japanese train crowding proportions.

Once the Orange Line is built, the Red Line will need to run more frequently with 2 cars. It is already extremely crowded.

I agree about the Sugar Land commuter rail. If I were doing it, I would try to extend it to 288, then have it run down the expansive median area of 288 up into Downtown. Then I would extend the Uptown Line south until it meets the commuter rail down at S Post Oak and Main.

[JJxvi]

]I'd personally like to see the University Line extended to Westchase, and I question whether the North extension all the way up to Bush is financially feasible.

Seems like it would make much more sense to build an express with no stops on something like a ROW down Hardy between IAH and the Intermodal. People going to the airport could be dropped off at "Central Station" and get a quick train non-stop up to the airport, and people flying into town could be quickly ferried non-stop downtown to transfer to light rail or grab a cab. Having light rail with stops up and down the North Freeway, Greenspoint, all the way in to the intermodal etc does not seem like a much better option than just driving especially since that line would be something like 22 miles and almost all of it along a major freeway anyway.

[T 2 THA C]

Seems like it would make much more sense to build an express with no stops on something like a ROW down Hardy between IAH and the Intermodal. People going to the airport could be dropped off at "Central Station" and get a quick train non-stop up to the airport, and people flying into town could be quickly ferried non-stop downtown to transfer to light rail or grab a cab. Having light rail with stops up and down the North Freeway, Greenspoint, all the way in to the intermodal etc does not seem like a much better option than just driving especially since that line would be something like 22 miles and almost all of it along a major freeway anyway.

Good suggestion, but the idea of mas transit is to give residents an option other than their vehicle to get to work/ other places. Not everyone uses the airport, mostly out of town business people do. Also the north line would be beneficial as you would not have to park your car or rely on someone to drop you off at the airport.

[desirous]

Good suggestion, but the idea of mas transit is to give residents an option other than their vehicle to get to work/ other places. Not everyone uses the airport, mostly out of town business people do. Also the north line would be beneficial as you would not have to park your car or rely on someone to drop you off at the airport.

That, or Metro could provide lower-cost airport parking as well, at Greenspoint Transit Center.

[musicman]

Good suggestion, but the idea of mas transit is to give residents an option other than their vehicle to get to work/ other places.

METRO already does this from downtown quite nicely with the greyhound type buses and in a timely fashion. there's no way a METRO designed light rail line could compete timewise. costs would be very high just based on distance.

[RedScare]

I am confident that METRO knows both that not many travellers would use light rail to the airport, AND that it would not be the fastest way to do it. However, the overwhelming number of users of transit to IAH are airport employees, and they WOULD use a light rail line that ran through North and Northeast neighborhoods on the way to the airport. Light rail could also stop at satellite parking lots on its way in, gaining more riders. Since serving the highest number of riders is the ultimate goal, light rail is beginning to sound like it would serve more people than a commuter line would. An eventual Kingwood commuter line, with an IAH station might work, but there just will not be enough IAH to Downtown traffic to justify a dedicated non-stop line to the airport.

[desirous]

I am confident that METRO knows both that not many travellers would use light rail to the airport, AND that it would not be the fastest way to do it. However, the overwhelming number of users of transit to IAH are airport employees, and they WOULD use a light rail line that ran through North and Northeast neighborhoods on the way to the airport. Light rail could also stop at satellite parking lots on its way in, gaining more riders. Since serving the highest number of riders is the ultimate goal, light rail is beginning to sound like it would serve more people than a commuter line would. An eventual Kingwood commuter line, with an IAH station might work, but there just will not be enough IAH to Downtown traffic to justify a dedicated non-stop line to the airport.

If anything, an airport express train would share the same line, with three-track passing zones interspersed.

[ricco67]

Seems like it would make much more sense to build an express with no stops on something like a ROW down Hardy between IAH and the Intermodal. People going to the airport could be dropped off at "Central Station" and get a quick train non-stop up to the airport, and people flying into town could be quickly ferried non-stop downtown to transfer to light rail or grab a cab. Having light rail with stops up and down the North Freeway, Greenspoint, all the way in to the intermodal etc does not seem like a much better option than just driving especially since that line would be something like 22 miles and almost all of it along a major freeway anyway.

Good suggestion, but the idea of mas transit is to give residents an option other than their vehicle to get to work/ other places. Not everyone uses the airport, mostly out of town business people do. Also the north line would be beneficial as you would not have to park your car or rely on someone to drop you off at the airport.

I'm sorry, but few airports in the WORLD offer an express train JUST to the airport. The few that do offer an express is because their airports are on an Island or in such a remote part of the city that nothing else exists.

As T 2 THA C has said, there has to be an option for other people to board the train from different areas of the city along that route that live CLOSE to the airport.

Not everyone wants to go to the airport, and there are many business people that don't have an extra 30-45 minutes to commute to the airport, most of the time they're cutting it VERY close when it comes to comming out of their meetings.

The people that are likely to use the rail to the airport are those that are just too cheap to get a cab, a livery service, or pay for parking.

That, or Metro could provide lower-cost airport parking as well, at Greenspoint Transit Center.

Believe it or not, Houston has the cheapest parking in the nation with the exception of a couple of minor cities south of chicago and ohio, which offer FREE parking and only because they're in competition with each other.

[JJxvi]

In a related question..how heavily used is that line out along the Hardy? No one has ever mention Northside commuter rail even though theres this nice direct rail line almost completely grade separated inside the city that runs from the intermodal site all the way out to the Woodlands and Conroe? Just not feasible for some reason?

[musicman]

In a related question..how heavily used is that line out along the Hardy? No one has ever mention Northside commuter rail even though theres this nice direct rail line almost completely grade separated inside the city that runs from the intermodal site all the way out to the Woodlands and Conroe? Just not feasible for some reason?

that was discussed 20 yrs ago when they were doing the hardy toll road. maybe the county wanted to ensure the toll road was built so the rail option was supressed?

[zaphod]

who knows,but go on local live and check out that huge yard to the north of 1960. There must be literally thousands of hopper cars stored out there

I remember back in the 90's when the UP/SP railroads merged and the system went into meltdown, and there were parked trains everywhere just stuck, particularly on that line.

[ssullivan]

The freight rail lines along the Hardy Toll Road are extremely busy. I take the Hardy a couple of times a week to/from IAH, and there are always trains. However, there is room along most of the corridor for a commuter or light rail line to be built between Hardy Street and the southbound Hardy Toll Road lanes.

[Trae]

No one would use it in a almost isolated corridor like Hardy. I would rather it run parallel to 45 (like what the drawings show now).

[musicman]

No one would use it in a almost isolated corridor like Hardy. I would rather it run parallel to 45 (like what the drawings show now).

easier access from both kingwood and woodlands, fewer stops, faster trip time, won't affect current traffic....nah it won't work.

[Trae]

So a commuter line along side the Hardy Tollway would get higher use than one down 58 and 45?

[desirous]

easier access from both kingwood and woodlands, fewer stops, faster trip time, won't affect current traffic....nah it won't work.

Easier access only via parking lots, and it wouldn't access any actual destinations.

[musicman]

it wouldn't access any actual destinations.

i guess downtown isn't an actual destination?

[RedScare]

Seems to me that IF the Hardy Corridor has room for commuter rail, it would be much more efficient and inexpensive than lines running in or beside freeways. A Hardy Line could run north, with a stop near Greenspoint, then continue north and split toward the airport and Kingwood, and another line continuing toward FM 2920, with stops at Kuykendahl and FM 1960. Much of the line would be either in the railroad easement or on airport property, and a single line from downtown to Greenspoint would serve two suburbs, north and northeast.

In contrast, a freeway line would only serve one suburban area. and would interfere with HOV service.

[ricco67]

Seems to me that IF the Hardy Corridor has room for commuter rail, it would be much more efficient and inexpensive than lines running in or beside freeways. A Hardy Line could run north, with a stop near Greenspoint, then continue north and split toward the airport and Kingwood, and another line continuing toward FM 2920, with stops at Kuykendahl and FM 1960. Much of the line would be either in the railroad easement or on airport property, and a single line from downtown to Greenspoint would serve two suburbs, north and northeast.

In contrast, a freeway line would only serve one suburban area. and would interfere with HOV service.

As I have mentioned in a previous post, the Hardy RR line is at capacity as it is, while a LR or commuter line would be ideal for the reasons that you mentioned above, it would have to have it's own dedicated tracks alongside those RR lines.

But as far as it branching out to greenspoint and the rest, wouldn't a simple people mover (Small busses, trolleys) do the job until capacity later justifies for a more advanced system(Light rail)?

[desirous]

i guess downtown isn't an actual destination?

For the money invested, no much of one. People going downtown can stick with their P&R's. I fail to see the point of building a rail line with stations for solely P&R usage. Our P&R bus system is quite good -- in many ways best in the country. Fulton/Airline LRT access the Northline and Greenspoint hubs, and accessible in a way that commuter rail on Hardy cannot be.

[RedScare]

I agree that the current rail is overcowded. I was suggesting a separate track, if room was available. As for LRT vs. commuter rail, I think LRT is best to Greenspoint, along the route suggested by METRO. If a separate commuter link was contemplated to replace P&R service, the Hardy line would be my suggestion. Otherwise, I agree with desirous, that P&R busses work just fine.

[musicman]

For the money invested, no much of one. People going downtown can stick with their P&R's. I fail to see the point of building a rail line with stations for solely P&R usage. Our P&R bus system is quite good -- in many ways best in the country. Fulton/Airline LRT access the Northline and Greenspoint hubs, and accessible in a way that commuter rail on Hardy cannot be.

if you build a line that is a bus replacement, as you're suggesting, travel times to greenpoint would be more than an hour. there's a bus from greenspoint to downtown that takes 30 mins. not sure how cost effective a rail line to greenpoint would be. the money could be spent way more effectively.

a bus system (or whatever) from kingwood and woodlands to a p&r stop would be the most cost effective way to get people to the stop.