What does HAIF mean to you?

[713 To 214]

I understand that this forum is rooted in architecture. However, I've also watched HAIF grow into something far broader than its architectural origins, and I think it could actually be a vehicle for positive change in the city. There should be no doubt that many in the Houston area visit this site, including publishers (news organizations) who obtain their stories from the few sensible discussions initiated here.

While I think there are many things that Houston does well, there are many more things that I think it could improve on. However, the city will never improve on those things because, and as long as, people here continue to feed the inferiority complex that is so pervasive throughout the city AND exemplified on this message, day in and day out. IMHO, What this message board needs is more critical thinkers, who are ready, willing, and able to tackle the real issues of the day that face this city. HAIF could be so much more if there weren't so many jack asses, people selling something, people trying to prove a point, people hell bent on "winning" an argument, people who like to read what they type, juvenile-minded individuals who start silly threads asking silly, repetitive questions, and individuals who think Houston can do no wrong. I've been a member here for about 2 and 1/2 years, and I got to say that the level of discourse has actually gotten worse over time. I have to ask you all a real question. . . . regardless of how you might choose to retaliate. . .what does HAIF mean to you?

[Guest Marty]

Haif is kinda like CB Radio, It a community, Its what CB Radio meant to be.

[bachanon]

people have opinions. haif is about houston. most of us have love for the built environment. disagreement on the what's what of houston is what it's all about. if we all were in agreement it would be no fun.

it is only by discourse that we refine what it is to be who we are. haif is disagreement. haif is discourse. haif is insight. to be offended or off-put by argument is to be simple-minded. don't belittle the site because there is disagreement. it is what it is.

[TheNiche]

I started out lurking, as HAIF was a good repository of most nearly every bit of local news related to my profession. I almost couldn't help but be a lurker on account of that its threads kept popping up in Google.

One day I was pissed off with a very poorly-written Chronicle article that tried to cite the number of additional cancer deaths related to ship channel industry, so I created a log-in, wrote a lengthy and scathing response that tore them a new one, and that was it. In that and subsequent debate, I was hooked. It was like crack to me. I've got to agree with bachanon. What makes HAIF interesting is that there are clashing worldviews and people willing to duke it out on the public stage. That process yields a far greater variety of opinions than could ever be expressed in one of our typical newspaper articles, for instance.

If you don't mind my asking, 713 To 214, how do you suggest that "critical thinkers tackle the real issues of the day that face this city" in the context of HAIF? And don't you think that perhaps those people that you describe as selling something, trying to prove a point, or hell-bent on winning an argument might be doing so on the convictions of the ideas that they've arrived at through critical thinking?

[Mister X]

At its best, HAIF is a great place to come to get some detailed info about what's going up in Houston. A lot of people with insider info and/or interesting perspectives cruise these boards. Sometimes there is more credible info posted here than in the chron or other publications.

At its most entertaining, HAIF is a great place to come to see some awesome photos of Houston. The people who take the time and energy to go out on the streets and capture some great shots and then post the photos here are my favorite members. I think they perform a real service at this forum.

At its most annoying, HAIF is a place to come to get someone's lame opinion and listen to people btch about things they can't possibly hope to change (like complaining that it's always too humid, the water in Galveston is brown, or that nothing ever gets built, ect.- HELLO, look around you - buildings going up everywhere, humidity here to stay, brown water going nowhere). It doesn't matter if it's true or not, unless you've got a real solution or the criticisms are constructive to Houston's problems, it's just pointless btching and wasted bandwidth. Equally annoying (I'm sure) are people (like me) who wouldn't be caught dead writing anything bad about Houston, which I guess drives people crazy too for some reason.

At its worst, HAIF is a place to come to listen to people treat the city of Houston and the people who enjoy living here like a punching bag for no reason other than to vent some personal frustrations. I'm talking about the people who start topics or come here souly to get the poo flying. Some threads just start out agressive - as if they were written by someone with a chip on their shoulder - especially the ones that start off from the get-go with a long list of negitives. They invite hostility, and put everyone in a defensive mode. Equally bad (I admit it) are people (like me) who have a tendancy to get personal, forget that there are actual human beings with feelings reading these threads and write posts that go on too long - like this one.

At its stupidest, HAIF is a place to start threads that are destined to go nowhere, serve no point whatsoever or will knowingly be deleted by the person who created it. Only thing stupider is responding to them. And before you start a war with me 214, I don't mean to imply or suggest that this will be one of those threads - just to be clear. I think this will probably be an interesting one, seriously. But, you did kind of include a nice list of negitives to get the ball rolling. Not that I'm saying there isn't some truth there, but I doubt that a thread that starts off calling people 'jack-asses' is going to attract more critical thinkers to this forum. You and I may be guilty of a few things on that list, but I mostly agree with your main point that the forum would be even better sans the BS. Here's your chance to lead us by setting an example.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Mister X

[Vertigo58]

These are all great responses by the way. I too came across the site for my interest in architecture and related stories.

I have noticed that moderators were more vigilant when I started about a year ago. That is, about keeping others in line with the crux or premise of this site. Most importantly the agreements of respecting others opinions, viewpoints which is clearly stated in the "agreement" when signing up with Haif from the get go.

As noted in the past, the ones that become hell-bent on getting a point across is by far the most distracting, annoying, childish and selfish. I am the 1st to admit, I love variety and change and am open to new ideas. I change my avatar from getted bored. If others do not like what they see, simply ignore. That's what I do with certain "fixated" individuals, simply have the "ignore" tab in place.

There are some members that are long time Houstonians and love to share stories of the old neighborhoods. I happen to love historical events and stories. I imagine some think its for attention, but I could care less. It's great when others join in and confirm events or occurences that happened here. We cant help it if we were born and raised in Houston. Me culpa?

I for one have made bad judgements in error or realized later I may have said something inappropriate or could have offended someone. I go back, speak with that person, and we come to an agreement to delete or remove an item. That simple. I only wish most would stick to the "think before you post" idea. The personal attacks by far are the most damaging to this forum. Haif can go a long way if the creators would be more proactive in making sure everyone stays within guidelines. What members need to keep in mind is that not everyone is constantly watching for responses from others (or subscribe rather to each topic). If we did, we would be inundated with emails. There have been cases where I happened upon where a certain person is demanding explanations, etc and I can only say that no one here is obligated to stop their work and start pasting "manifesto's" of proof to post back. Totally lacking in respect for the others on the forum. Haif is not a stage or platform to become an actor and get that point across.

Finally, I use these because you have them there for a reason. Just trying to stay in good humor, that's all.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Vertigo58

[713 To 214]

If you don't mind my asking, 713 To 214, how do you suggest that "critical thinkers tackle the real issues of the day that face this city" in the context of HAIF? And don't you think that perhaps those people that you describe as selling something, trying to prove a point, or hell-bent on winning an argument might be doing so on the convictions of the ideas that they've arrived at through critical thinking?

IMHO, for what it may be worth, I think that in order to be a critical thinker you have to be critical. and in order to do that, generally, I think one would ask hard questions, then identify problems where they exist, instead of trying to convince him/herself that those problems are non-issues. Take a reasonable approach towards analyzing the issue(s), which encompasses all viewpoints, and opinions, not just the viewpoints that fall in line with his/her way of thinking. AND most importantly, bring research, empirical, and statistical data into the debate instead of just stating opinions, so that educated conclusions can be drawn and decisions can be made.

BTW, thanks to all who have posted responses to my question.

[lockmat]

I think at first I came for the information. Then because I wanted to learn from others because there was so much about what's discussed here that I had no idea about, yet wanted to know. Many people here have informed and taught me things and I hope they continue to do so. There's so many different thoughts people point out on subjects that I never would have thought of, so it broadens my understanding of things and sometimes even changes it. I appreciate straight and honest answers.

[editor]

I understand that this forum is rooted in architecture. However, I've also watched HAIF grow into something far broader than its architectural origins, and I think it could actually be a vehicle for positive change in the city. There should be no doubt that many in the Houston area visit this site, including publishers (news organizations) who obtain their stories from the few sensible discussions initiated here.

While I think there are many things that Houston does well, there are many more things that I think it could improve on. However, the city will never improve on those things because, and as long as, people here continue to feed the inferiority complex that is so pervasive throughout the city AND exemplified on this message, day in and day out. IMHO, What this message board needs is more critical thinkers, who are ready, willing, and able to tackle the real issues of the day that face this city. HAIF could be so much more if there weren't so many jack asses, people selling something, people trying to prove a point, people hell bent on "winning" an argument, people who like to read what they type, juvenile-minded individuals who start silly threads asking silly, repetitive questions, and individuals who think Houston can do no wrong. I've been a member here for about 2 and 1/2 years, and I got to say that the level of discourse has actually gotten worse over time. I have to ask you all a real question. . . . regardless of how you might choose to retaliate. . .what does HAIF mean to you?

I agree with much of what you say. The level of discourse on HAIF is not what it should be. However, I wouldn't say it's been an entirely downward slide. HAIF is like any other entity -- it has its ups and its downs. As the forum has grown and become more diverse in both its membership and content it is suffering with some of the same growing pains as any other forum.

In my view, there are two problems -- the Griefers and the Silent Intelligencia.

We all know who the Griefers are. People who come here just to blow off steam, but not in a good way. They're up for a fight and figure anyone who disagrees with them deserves a verbal beat-down. The moderators and I try to rein in as many of these people as we can. We try gentile persuasion at first and if that doesn't work we have more serious tools we can use all the way up to banning a user. In the history of HAIF I don't think we've banned more than five people. I hear from a lot of the good users that we should ban more often. I hear from the griefers that we're too quick to silence dissent. I don't expect that we'll ever reach a point where we'll please everyone, but if we can keep things civil enough that people want to return, that's a good start.

The Silent Intelligencia, don't realize it but they're part of the problem. There are a ton of very intelligent, rational, linguistically talented people on HAIF who simply don't post. That's frustrating. Do you have any idea how many people on HAIF have nasa.gov e-mail addresses? There are tons of smart people on HAIF who don't participate. Instead they sit on the sidelines and watch the griefers run riot. It's the internet equivalent of a Neighborhood Watch. If you do nothing, your neighborhood deteriorates. If you post intelligent messages and start new intelligent discussions the griefers will go away. Or at least the signal-to-noise ratio will improve, attracting more intelligent discussion. But if you do nothing you get nothing.

That's one of the reasons I've considered coughing up the money to add the blog feature to HAIF. I thought that maybe if people had a more personal place where they felt more comfortable expressing themselves in long-form they might write more. But only a handful of people have expressed interest in the feature.

In an ideal world I would be on HAIF all the time to stimulate discussions and smack hands, but I simply can't. Instead I pour money into it hoping that will help. I went with the expensive forum software instead of cheaping out on PHPBB or vBulletin so people would have a stable environment to communicate in. I brought on a group of moderators to let me know when things are going wrong. I've recently started pouring money into internet ads to attract new blood to the forum. And I got a fat private server to make sure that your HAIF experience is as fast and reliable as possible.

I'm not sure what more I can do, but I'm open to suggestions. I continue to keep an eye on people I think are or might become troublemakers. But I don't know how to make the good people interact who would rather sit back and read. It's their right, but in the long term HAIF is only as good as its users.

Please post your ideas here for ways to make HAIF better. Or if you're a lurker who doesn't have a HAIF account, send me an e-mail at editor@houstonarchitecture.info. Even non-members' opinions are valuable.

[bachanon]

join the party "silent intelligencia"! we know you are watching. we want you to participate. be one of us!

[JustinUther]

That's one of the reasons I've considered coughing up the money to add the blog feature to HAIF. I thought that maybe if people had a more personal place where they felt more comfortable expressing themselves in long-form they might write more. But only a handful of people have expressed interest in the feature.

HAIF is a great place to view and share information and opinions about anything in and around Houston. I lurked here for quite some time before creating an account and still do more lurking than posting. Sorry, guess I'm part of the problem at times. It does allow us to see if there is anyone that shares our point-of-view and gives the oppertunity to chime in on those threads that are important to us.

Editor, PLEASE don't add a blog to HAIF. As it is now I can go to view and use the forum but my company's IT department screens and blocks blogs. Adding the blog would shut me out, almost completely.

[OldHouseLover]

join the party "silent intelligencia"! we know you are watching. we want you to participate. be one of us!

As a retired [working harder than ever] Native Houstonian with a curious mind & rental properties in older areas of city, HAIF keeps me informed to the happenings in neighborhoods of interest. I enjoy the play on words describing the happenings. Laughing is good medicine! Some of us are shy @ printing to the public. HAIF is my way of relaxing with a cup of tea & trying to decide whether to repair, rent or sell a property & see if I can glean any information which might be used for tax protesting:)

Edited October 15, 2007 by OldHouseLover

[TJones]

Hi everyone, my name is TJones......... and, and.......... I am a HAIFaholic.

I am here for the CHICKS man, only the chicks. Oh, and someday, world domination.

HAIF, has brightened my smile, gotten the soap scum out of my shower, made my car get better gas mileage, and helped me learn how to put annoying people from Dallas on "IGNORE".

I also wish more lurkers would join in on this fun. I don't know maybe lurking is just as fun as mixing it up ?

I LOVE THIS FRIGGIN PLACE ! I never thought I had an addictive personality until I stopped playing MCO for 18 hours a day for 2 years, until EA finally shut it down, and found this place, PURELY BY ACCIDENT while looking for information about the Sakowitz family over 2 years ago. It has been a love affair ever since.

Edited October 17, 2007 by TJones

[ricco67]

I came across HAIF a number of years ago trying to find information on a building and I stumbled cross something that actually much more than that.

This has actually become a rather large knowledge base that i use quite frequently to update the info I have for my clients and use it as a resource fairly often.

I agree as far as blogs go, I don't know if they would work well on here as it would give people a way to whine and moan unless they're heavily moderated. If you do use them, I'd use a slightly different domain name, though. Just my two cents.

[ArchitecturalPRGirl]

I admit I strayed away due to some of the reasons given above. But I'm back and curious as to what's going on these days.

[crunchtastic]

I found HAIF a couple of years ago when I was casting around for some neighborhood information. I lurked a long time because I felt, frankly, like an imposter with no background in architecture or related. And still not really an active user or participant. But I'm a native Houstonian interested in quality of life/community issues, so I hung around and eventually joined. Not knowing what it used to be like, I'd say HAIFers run circles around many other communities for intelligence, wit, and a fairly civilized political mix. Plus a treasure trove of useful info and local building news n gossip. And I love, love love the photos.

in a nod to TJones--I'm surprised more chicks aren't here for the men! OK, not so surprised. But seriously, I did notice the demographics of this forum.

[H-Town Man]

I agree with much of what you say. The level of discourse on HAIF is not what it should be. However, I wouldn't say it's been an entirely downward slide. HAIF is like any other entity -- it has its ups and its downs. As the forum has grown and become more diverse in both its membership and content it is suffering with some of the same growing pains as any other forum.

In my view, there are two problems -- the Griefers and the Silent Intelligencia.

We all know who the Griefers are. People who come here just to blow off steam, but not in a good way. They're up for a fight and figure anyone who disagrees with them deserves a verbal beat-down. The moderators and I try to rein in as many of these people as we can. We try gentile persuasion at first and if that doesn't work we have more serious tools we can use all the way up to banning a user. In the history of HAIF I don't think we've banned more than five people. I hear from a lot of the good users that we should ban more often. I hear from the griefers that we're too quick to silence dissent. I don't expect that we'll ever reach a point where we'll please everyone, but if we can keep things civil enough that people want to return, that's a good start.

The Silent Intelligencia, don't realize it but they're part of the problem. There are a ton of very intelligent, rational, linguistically talented people on HAIF who simply don't post. That's frustrating. Do you have any idea how many people on HAIF have nasa.gov e-mail addresses? There are tons of smart people on HAIF who don't participate. Instead they sit on the sidelines and watch the griefers run riot. It's the internet equivalent of a Neighborhood Watch. If you do nothing, your neighborhood deteriorates. If you post intelligent messages and start new intelligent discussions the griefers will go away. Or at least the signal-to-noise ratio will improve, attracting more intelligent discussion. But if you do nothing you get nothing.

That's one of the reasons I've considered coughing up the money to add the blog feature to HAIF. I thought that maybe if people had a more personal place where they felt more comfortable expressing themselves in long-form they might write more. But only a handful of people have expressed interest in the feature.

In an ideal world I would be on HAIF all the time to stimulate discussions and smack hands, but I simply can't. Instead I pour money into it hoping that will help. I went with the expensive forum software instead of cheaping out on PHPBB or vBulletin so people would have a stable environment to communicate in. I brought on a group of moderators to let me know when things are going wrong. I've recently started pouring money into internet ads to attract new blood to the forum. And I got a fat private server to make sure that your HAIF experience is as fast and reliable as possible.

I'm not sure what more I can do, but I'm open to suggestions. I continue to keep an eye on people I think are or might become troublemakers. But I don't know how to make the good people interact who would rather sit back and read. It's their right, but in the long term HAIF is only as good as its users.

Please post your ideas here for ways to make HAIF better. Or if you're a lurker who doesn't have a HAIF account, send me an e-mail at editor@houstonarchitecture.info. Even non-members' opinions are valuable.

This is one of the best things I've read on here in a long time.

The biggest reason by far that I don't post on here more often is that I get sick of the griefers. Sometimes I will get fed up and have an argument with one, but of course that does little to improve the situation, and I have sunk to their level more than once.

The problem is that despite this forum having several thousand members, when I think of this place, I generally think of about 6 or 7 people. Those are the people who have stamped their personalities on this forum. In a sense, they ARE the forum. They are what you remember when you sign off. They are the taste that gets left in your mouth.

I'm a teacher, and the same thing happens in the classroom. If two or three people talk all the time, then they are the ones who define the class. And if they are allowed to say rude or inappropriate things, then everyone else cowers away and becomes silent, and they, sensing their power, just talk that much more. The only way to improve the discussion is to silence them.

I'm for having firmer boundaries on what people can get away with. I also think something more should be done as far as flood control, maybe a maximum of one post per hour. This would limit the arguments, force people to speak more carefully and thoughtfully, and perhaps stifle the practice of dissertation writing that has been seen on certain topics.

[ChannelTwoNews]

I'll try to be brief.

It means more to me when I'm away from home, which is fairly often actually. It is great to keep ties with where you grew up and all the changes happening when you're across the country. Quite helpful as well to those who don't regularly check in, but still ask me "What's this new thing" or "What are they building at...". I like having the answer ahead of most other "legitimate" sources from the old school. Equally nice is the fact that it seems a ton of us have shared experiences and nostalgia and we can all indulge in it here. Amazing what some of you all find! I love learning about the projects that were never built and old places that were once here but now have all but vanished. HAIF is a database which is unparalleled in our area for the wide range of topics it covers, and that's why I keep pointing people here to check it out.

A few things do annoy me of course, and I think they're universal in some regard.

I see it more on other forums, but there are a few around here who have nothing better to say and they leave uninformed and juvenile remarks on various posts. Trolls Ahoy! I'm genuinely warming more to the thought of well reasoned discourse and dialogue as time goes on. I'm not saying stifle anyone's opinion or whatever, but after seeing excitement and discussion build on a certain topic- seeing it descend to a simple phrase or incomplete sentence without anything more... yeah. Whiny kids are fine if you're running a daycare, but if you're interested in discussing the future of your area or just a simple neighborhood project... you might wanna consider a pacifier for a moment.

That, or leave your parents' basement to get some sunshine once in a while. Our city is a nice one if you get out in it and explore on your own.

True it does have its faults like any other municipality in addition to some special ones by nature of law and location. I also respect everyone who has real grievances, and don't complain just for the sake of doing so. Many of yall have solutions which should be considered by those in power. If only common sense weren't abandoned so often...

That said, I'm generally happy with the forum as-is.

I would've had an entire paragraph on PlAst!c!111, but since he's been banned, I have nil on that count. Perhaps a tribute thread in the future?

Edited October 21, 2007 by ChannelTwoNews

[Montrose1100]

Well I'm not sure what category I fall under, and to be honest, I don't care.

I think each forumer brings something different to the table, like a community, which is what HAIF is. Sometimes its serious, sometimes not. There are every level of intellegence, and I'm glad its not an elite site of nasa employees discussing the city like a secret society. While we do have very professional people on here, its nice to know we can leave that status stuff at the door. And comfortably be down to earth with one another... we can joke and be ourselves, its casual.

I use HAIF for alot of information, pictures, updates on under construction buildings... And I like to see The Niche and others discuss the price of oil, or whatever random conversation they get heated up about. You can see all sides of it, and add your own. I also like to see Ricco ask everyone if they prefer fish nets or not.

Go ahead and put me under the Griefer one, because half the time I don't want to read 6 pages of an argument to understand what someone is talking about.

[skyechas]

HAIF was my sole source of information for neighborhood and house-hunting when I moved here 2 years ago. My realtor was amazed how much I knew about Houston before actually moving! At first it was perplexing to me that an "architecture-based" site would give me all info I needed to find my place. But boy was I glad to have come across it! Thanks to all the great minds here. I love the photos too. :-)