Women Raped Before Honor Killing

[Trae]

Woman raped before "honor killing": court

Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:54AM EDT

LONDON (Reuters) - A Kurdish woman was brutally raped, stamped on and strangled by members of her family and their friends in an "honor killing" carried out at her London home because she had fallen in love with the wrong man.

Banaz Mahmod, 20, was subjected to the 2-1/2 hour ordeal before she was garroted with a bootlace. Her body was stuffed into a suitcase and taken about 100 miles to Birmingham where it was buried in the back garden of a house.

They believed Banaz had brought shame on the family by leaving her husband, an Iraqi Kurd she had been forced to marry at 17, and falling in love with Rahmat Suleimani, an Iranian Kurd.

In the recordings, transcripts of which were relayed to the court, Hama and his friend are hearing laughing as he described how she was killed with Banaz's uncle "supervising".

"I was kicking and stamping on her neck to get the soul out. I saw her stark naked, only wearing pants or underwear," Hama is recorded as saying.

More at link. England needs to curb the radical Muslims there. There was an article about how like 50 or 60 % of young Muslims supported Sharia Law.

[editor]

Don't just point fingers at England. There's a bit of that that goes on here in America. Of the two Muslim women I know (not exactly a representative sample, but all I have to go on), both are in arranged marriages. One was threatened with death if she married the man she loved instead of the one selected for her.

FWIW, neither are Arab Muslims. They are from other predominantly Muslim nations in other parts of the world that are considered friends of America.

[nmm]

Its more of a cultural thing than a "Muslim" thing. Meaning its a practice of culture. Its a society based around family lineage, who you "know", etc. Families begin to act less like Families and more like Mafia Organizations. Betray the house vote, and your dead. Thats why uncles, aunts, fathers, etc will get into it. They feel a sense of vindication to their "honor" once they have committed the crime.

[Trae]

Which, I think, is stupid. The father and uncle were even laughing and joking about the killing in the jail cell.

[nmm]

Stupid? I think its a perversion of their psyche. The culture around them trains to think the way they do. If your black, you understand why black people in the ghetto act like they do.

The whole cultural situation will need an uplift. Some aspects of their* culture are not neccessarily great.

[west20th]

The whole cultural situation will need an uplift. Some aspects of your culture are not neccessarily great.

Our culture is not perfect but at least we have progressed out of the middle ages. No custom we have is as repulsive as "honor killings".

[CDeb]

No custom we have is as repulsive as "honor killings".

Killing unborn children because they are inconvenient is right up there.

[RedScare]

Our culture is not perfect but at least we have progressed out of the middle ages. No custom we have is as repulsive as "honor killings".

Is this different than killing someone because he "disrespected me"?

[nmm]

Our culture is not perfect but at least we have progressed out of the middle ages. No custom we have is as repulsive as "honor killings".

Yep, i made the mistake. Meant to say their instead of your. It makes more sense now, and has continuity.

Culture is an interesting thing. Its fascinating how culture has the dual ability to be good and bad at different times in different situations. Basically speaking, people like doing mechanized things, and they even begin to have mechanized thoughts and feelings. Proof of this is the way they teach us theory in college, but the way the culture at the workplace is mechanized so i dont have to keep philosophizing about what to do next. I dont even use equations, i punch in numbers into the keyboard and the computer computes.

Another example is the extreme liberals and the extreme conservatives. You will always find a group of unflinching people sticking it out with their political party or organization, even as they witness the negative effects of said organizations doings. Its static thinking.

[houstonmacbro]

More at link. England needs to curb the radical Muslims there. There was an article about how like 50 or 60 % of young Muslims supported Sharia Law.

That is really sad. But I cannot say unheard of. I know (mainly from what I've seen on television) that certain women are not to marry (much less speak to) certain men in those religions.

[MidtownCoog]

Islam is the root cuase of the backwardness of the Muslims.

Maybe in another 3,000 years...

[Trae]

Stupid? I think its a perversion of their psyche. The culture around them trains to think the way they do. If your black, you understand why black people in the ghetto act like they do.

The whole cultural situation will need an uplift. Some aspects of their* culture are not neccessarily great.

We don't have honor killings though.

[west20th]

Is this different than killing someone because he "disrespected me"?

A few amoral ash*s who kill for a trivial reason is cultural? Not my culture. A tiny sub-culture maybe.

[millennica]

Is this different than killing someone because he "disrespected me"?

Other examples from US and Western societies

Salem witch trials in the late 17th century

Beginning in the 18th century continuing through 1998, lynchings, mob violence, and other extra judicial punishment in the US, for example flogging & tarring and feathering, used against groups-- Chinese and Irish immigrants, Italian Americans, Black/African-Americans-- and specific individuals like Leo Frank, Mathew Shepherd, Michael Donald, James Bryrd

Dueling in Western societies including the US through the mid 1800s

[nmm]

No, i doubt Westerners would understand how the thought process goes. I have four different ways of looking at the world due to my religious, ethnic and national background. Id have to tell you its really a clash of cultures.

Their honor is tied to family prestige, and thats how they are socially organized. One dude in the family ____s up big time, and they have to get "rid" of him. European culture differs in its individualist outlook. You actually feel a personal loss due to the acts of other members, in this culture on topic.

Dueling like Aaron Burr's duel against Alexander Hamilton is a totally different scenario. In an honor killing you lure the victim unbeknowest to him/her; then you attack them. It comes unannounced because its done by people you love/trust.

The Black Lynchings of the South was also something totally different. That had to the with the psyche of power and being the deemed superior and civilized person against a lesser human. Look up the Stanford Prison Experiment to understand White hate against Blacks in the South. Ironically the hate was much more violent around the late 1700s when talks of ending slavery began to circulate.

[nativehou]

Their honor is tied to family prestige, and thats how they are socially organized. One dude in the family ____s up big time, and they have to get "rid" of him.

I guess not inviting him to family get-togethers isn't enough?

In an honor killing you lure the victim unbeknowest to him/her; then you attack them. It comes unannounced because its done by people you love/trust.

You're right, as a Westerner, this mentality is incomprehensible to me.

[west20th]

Other examples from US and Western societies

Salem witch trials in the late 17th century

Beginning in the 18th century continuing through 1998, lynchings, mob violence, and other extra judicial punishment in the US, for example flogging & tarring and feathering, used against groups-- Chinese and Irish immigrants, Italian Americans, Black/African-Americans-- and specific individuals like Leo Frank, Mathew Shepherd, Michael Donald, James Bryrd

Dueling in Western societies including the US through the mid 1800s

All true but we have grown out or are growing out of the above examples. We aren't perfect but we are evolving and changing.

[KinkaidAlum]

As if the supposed "honor killings" aren't bad enough, but do family members really have to throw in rape too?

I mean, if I had a gun pointed at my head and had to choose which was weirder, your father/uncles/brothers/cousins killing you for their honor or you father/uncles/brothers/cousins raping you, I'd have to go with rape.

This is misogyny at it's worst. I imagine these honor killings only happen to women, right?

[ssullivan]

In an honor killing you lure the victim unbeknowest to him/her; then you attack them. It comes unannounced because its done by people you love/trust.

What kind of love and trust is there in a relationship where family members would violently rape and kill another family member?

I really do try to be open minded and accepting of other religions and world views. But this story really challenges me on that. It makes it very hard for me to see the good in a set of religious beliefs that would sanctify this type of activity. I personally find it disgusting that anyone call something like this "honorable."

[nmm]

Yeah, mostly to women. Although it does happen to men. Basically anyone who defies standards or set guidelines in his family/community.

Again, these dont really have anything to do with religion, as much as it is social pressure and peer pressure. Meaning, you find this stuff in Hindu India and Christian Bulgaria as well.

Also, you made the comment about love and trust: The only example i can give you is that who you are is what society judges you by. These are cultures that value family lineage, hence it is very hard to get a divorce and such. If you get a divorce, it means you break the family "chain" so to speak (imagine a family tree). Thats the way these people organize themselves. In the West they place your worth based upon the hard work you achieve; in these societies they place your worth upon where you came from.

The daughter of a prostitute will be regarded as a prostitue. Even if said daughter manages to push her life out of the ghetto and becomes a certified medical doctor, she is still a kanjri (prostitute).The son of a plumber will be regarded as a plumber. His own son will also be regarded as having the status of a "plumber". You cant escape it. You have to move away and start your life fresh with a fake family history.

Take Indian Society for example. They have a caste system with the Brahmans on top and the Sudras (Untouchables) on bottom. Now the Sudras can never marry the Brahmans, and people still practice this philosophy. It even colors their history: Gandhi and Nehru (fought the british for self-rule) were both Brahmans. If an Untouchable led such a revolution, he wouldnt find any support.

If you guys remember about that Indian guy who was building that ugly 60 story tower for his family; somone on here mentioned about all the poor people in India and the gross inequities in wealth distribution. Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the masses. For societies like Indian, East European, or Middle Eastern it is not religion rather social culture. You will find how dirt poor and terribly treated the Untouchables are by society and government organizations (local police), they wont complain because they have been conditioned to believe that they earned their status. So you will see a bunch of homeless poor people in India living on sidewalks and such, outside of India's high profile cities: [Dehli, Mumbai, Hyderabad, Bangalore].

Going back to this topic, the family believes because the girl betrayed her family lineage (and hence Social Organization) by trying to break free from a forced marriage, she has earned her punishment. She has dishonored her family and made life for her siblings harder by negatively portraying her family in society. Now her family is officially "smeared" with a reputation of being unfaithful to marriage partners. Hence they wiped her out and punished her to show society that they want to wipe her existence off and start anew with a clean slate. In a sense, they believe society forgives them and they retain their honor.

That. is. honor killings in a nutshell.

Although increasing urbanisation destroys this type of social organization, you still hear of acts like these in small towns the size of Brownsville or Jasper or out in villages. Small towns breed small minds. This type of social networking works for them; it doesnt work in the big cities.

Coincidentally there are alot of things that Americans/Europeans dont understand outside of their cultural realm. Thats why i believe you can never "bring" democracy to countries like India, Pakistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria. The people are conditioned to practice their politics in a certain way, and they wont change their ways because America or Britian or France attacked them to convince them. It has to be organic, like the Storming of the Bastille.

As far as society goes, the educated are horrified. Others who live in the village; the Village's "Chief" or what governments in modern day call "Deputy" makes the decision as to how his village is to understand this event. Is it a plausable incident or a horrific incident?

If anyone's seen RoseWood with Ving Rhames, you will understand what i mean. Specifically when the white people from RoseWood tried to cross into the other city to kill that cities black folk. The other cities Sheriff was waiting for them with a squadron of police officers to prevent them from crossing.

Basically imagine that.

Its a damn crime is all i can say.

[KinkaidAlum]

The problem with your explanation is that this crime was carried out in England. This wasn't carried out in India, Pakistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan. She was buried in a backyard in BIRMINGHAM for God's sake.

It is 2007. There is no justification for this type of thing and the fact that it still occurs even in families that have moved to Europe is alarming.

[nmm]

But the family was Kurdish. You can take the Kurd out of his Culture, but you cant take the culture out of the Kurd. If your ingrained at birth to understand something is okay, then your going to be emotionless about committing the crime. Obtaining a passport and moving overseas doesnt change the way you think.

Anyways, 1807, 2007, or 2207 this crime will continue until people change their philosophy of thought. Until then dont be suprised to hear stories like this, or stories of kitchen fire, or of lynchings, or rape, or anything else for that matter.

[northbeaumont]

What kind of love and trust is there in a relationship where family members would violently rape and kill another family member?

I really do try to be open minded and accepting of other religions and world views. But this story really challenges me on that. It makes it very hard for me to see the good in a set of religious beliefs that would sanctify this type of activity. I personally find it disgusting that anyone call something like this "honorable."

Q: What's the best way to avoid rape?

A: Beat off the attacker.

[VicMan]

If I had all of the legal power of England, I would have each "honor killing" family rounded up and "pilloried" - force their mouths taped shut and then have the townspeople of England insult the family and the members repeatedly - after they are all found guilty in criminal court.

I would end a shaming time by announcing "Making an 'honor killing will destroy your family in England. Please, do not destroy your family with an honor killing, because we will punish families that honor kill by destroying their reputations and their happiness." - I'm not sure if this is legal at all, but I would make it clear to families that the state, not individual members of families, has the power to destroy naughty families.