Washington Avenue More Urban Than Midtown

[TheNiche]

Washington Avenue will never...ever...be like FM 1960. The parcels are way too small to accommodate large retail centers anchored by big box retailers that have vast parking requirements. That area will attract more retail; most of the east/west traffic in that neighborhood gets funneled along Washington, it helps the traffic count, and the traffic count supports more retail. That's good. It contributes to the vibrancy of the area and makes the redevelopment of those warehouses into dense residential neighborhoods more viable.

Washington Avenue's strengths are what holds back Midtown, though, especially considering the diffused traffic along a grid and the very small parcel sizes.

[brian0123]

Washington Avenue will never...ever...be like FM 1960. The parcels are way too small to accommodate large retail centers anchored by big box retailers that have vast parking requirements. That area will attract more retail; most of the east/west traffic in that neighborhood gets funneled along Washington, it helps the traffic count, and the traffic count supports more retail. That's good. It contributes to the vibrancy of the area and makes the redevelopment of those warehouses into dense residential neighborhoods more viable.

Washington Avenue's strengths are what holds back Midtown, though, especially considering the diffused traffic along a grid and the very small parcel sizes.

I'm not saying it will be like 1960 exactly in terms of retail centers, etc. However, as more development occurs, the more crowded Washington Avenue will become. There is no other major way to really get around the area. To the north, you have I-10 and an incomplete feeder road because of the bayou. To the south, you have Memorial Drive and only certain roads that will let you get access to it for certain directions you wish to travel. Washington Avenue is setup so that everything pretty much gets dumped out onto it... just like 1960. When my wife and I lived there, we couldn't walk anywhere other than a couple blocks. Most of the time we were forced to drive out onto Washington to get where we needed to go...just like 1960. Also, Midtown's grid is tied into downtown's...allowing for the easy flow of traffic between areas. The layout in and of itself will allow for it to develop (over time) to be more than Washington Avenue can ever hope to be (where there are only TWO major ways to access downtown... Washington and Memorial).

As for parcel sizes, I believe that's one of Midtown's strengths in terms of allowing for the eventual development of a truly urban center. The size of Midtown's blocks will allow for very dense residential and retail centers... all in close proximity.

[woolie]

Midtown has rail. Washington won't for at least a decade.

This has been another installment of easy answers to contentious questions.

[longhornguy]

Midtown has rail. Washington won't for at least a decade.

This has been another installment of easy answers to contentious questions.

Actually Washington does have rail: the aforementioned freight rail.

This has been another installment of easy rebuttals to misinformed posters.

[TheNiche]

Midtown has rail. Washington won't for at least a decade.

This has been another installment of easy answers to contentious questions.

Light rail didn't exactly go over well for Main Street. Since it was introduced, many of the existing businesses failed and have not been replaced, meanwhile development in Midtown has tended to be more vibrant just a couple blocks east or west of light rail, and has even been more intensive across 288 than it is along the light rail corridor.

Washington Avenue would seem to be a good candidate for light rail on the face of it, except that the road is fairly narrow to begin with and has no good alternatives for drivers to use. It's like the Harrisburg corridor but without Canal or Polk Streets. It would be ideal, I think, if light rail were installed down Center Street.

[TheNiche]

I'm not saying it will be like 1960 exactly in terms of retail centers, etc. However, as more development occurs, the more crowded Washington Avenue will become. There is no other major way to really get around the area.

That's precisely what I'm saying, except that I'm concluding that the crowded effect will be good for business and encourage more activity. That's Washington Avenue's strength, not its weakness.

When my wife and I lived there, we couldn't walk anywhere other than a couple blocks. Most of the time we were forced to drive out onto Washington to get where we needed to go...just like 1960.

The sidewalks and other pedestrian infrastructure does need to be worked on. I agree with you there.

But to the extent that Washington or Center Street are good candidates for future transit, the fact that they are corridors actually helps a lot. Light rail on Main Street in Midtown doesn't actually serve most of Midtown; it only serves handful of blocks at a time near where there are stops. Light rail along a corridor would more effectively serve a greater percentage of businesses within that neighborhood.

As for parcel sizes, I believe that's one of Midtown's strengths in terms of allowing for the eventual development of a truly urban center. The size of Midtown's blocks will allow for very dense residential and retail centers... all in close proximity.

Take it from a former developer: small parcel size kills a pro forma for new construction really quick and retards the rate of growth of a neighborhood. Washington Avenue has to contend with the same problem, only somewhat less severe because there are a greater number of large parcels where there used to be industrial properties.

[N Judah]

Midtown has rail. Washington won't for at least a decade.

This has been another installment of easy answers to contentious questions.

I think W. Dallas is overall a better route for LRT. Me personally I'm in favor of leaving Wash Ave. alone in favor of other corridors that are wider and which could probably use the development more.

[brian0123]

Take it from a former developer: small parcel size kills a pro forma for new construction really quick and retards the rate of growth of a neighborhood. Washington Avenue has to contend with the same problem, only somewhat less severe because there are a greater number of large parcels where there used to be industrial properties.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I didn't realize you were saying that Midtown had small blocks. I was arguing that Midtown has large lots (aren't the blocks in Midtown the same size as those that house skyscrapers downtown?)

Washington does have some larger chunks of land... but those are leading to a more suburban type of development (i.e. Target, Pet's Mart, Chili's, etc.) and this thread is about which is more urban.

As for Metro Rail and the businesses failing along it... the problem right now is that Midtown has not yet filled in (Midtown is still fairly young). However, the infrastructure is now in place, but it will just take some time. For example, Camden Travis is being built close to the McGowen station. More and more clubs are starting to occupy the middle part of Midtown too. Slowly, but surely, Midtown will fill in. Also, we have the superblock at the McGowen stop (next to Camden Travis) that Camden and the city are supposedly planning something big for.

[TheNiche]

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I didn't realize you were saying that Midtown had small blocks. I was arguing that Midtown has large lots (aren't the blocks in Midtown the same size as those that house skyscrapers downtown?)

Washington does have some larger chunks of land... but those are leading to a more suburban type of development (i.e. Target, Pet's Mart, Chili's, etc.) and this thread is about which is more urban.

As for Metro Rail and the businesses failing along it... the problem right now is that Midtown has not yet filled in (Midtown is still fairly young). However, the infrastructure is now in place, but it will just take some time. For example, Camden Travis is being built close to the McGowen station. More and more clubs are starting to occupy the middle part of Midtown too. Slowly, but surely, Midtown will fill in. Also, we have the superblock at the McGowen stop (next to Camden Travis) that Camden and the city are supposedly planning something big for.

The problem isn't block size, it's fractured ownership parcel by parcel.

Target is off of I-10, not Washington Avenue. And the nearest Petsmart is on Shepherd well away from that neighborhood, and in a very urbane shopping center.

If apartments and clubs are a measure of progress, Washington Avenue is already light years ahead of Main Street in Midtown.

[brian0123]

Target is off of I-10, not Washington Avenue. And the nearest Petsmart is on Shepherd well away from that neighborhood, and in a very urbane shopping center.

If apartments and clubs are a measure of progress, Washington Avenue is already light years ahead of Main Street in Midtown.

They are building a Petsmart in the parking lot across from the Target. I know it's off of I-10, but I still consider it part of the Washington corridor (just like all those people in town homes north of the tracks consider themselves part of the corridor too).

As for apartments and clubs, I don't know how you can compare Washington with Midtown. Yes, there isn't much along Main St. yet, but Midtown goes a lot further out than Main Street. At night, it is jam packed with people walking from club to club and back to their apartments. When I lived along Washington... it was impossible for me to walk from my apartment to a club/store/etc.

This thread is about Washington vs Midtown in terms of which place is/will be more "urban". I listed earlier why my wife and I didn't like Washington Avenue. I still view Washington Avenue as an inner loop early version of a mini FM 1960. Instead of neighborhoods of houses along it... you have mini neighborhoods of townhouses. Instead of large strip malls facing it, you have smaller strip malls. Then, everything dumps out onto one long road. Walking along it (or biking) is next to impossible. Getting around requires getting in the car. Yes, Washington might have the appearance of being busy because it forces everyone to cram along one very long road (and businesses do like that)... but that doesn't make it urban. The model works right now because there isn't a ton of people living along Washington. The more Washington grows, the more congested it will become. Midtown, on the other hand, has the capacity and layout to handle future growth and provide for a truly urban, walkable neighborhood in the future.

[TheNiche]

They are building a Petsmart in the parking lot across from the Target. I know it's off of I-10, but I still consider it part of the Washington corridor (just like all those people in town homes north of the tracks consider themselves part of the corridor too).

As for apartments and clubs, I don't know how you can compare Washington with Midtown. Yes, there isn't much along Main St. yet, but Midtown goes a lot further out than Main Street. At night, it is jam packed with people walking from club to club and back to their apartments. When I lived along Washington... it was impossible for me to walk from my apartment to a club/store/etc.

This thread is about Washington vs Midtown in terms of which place is/will be more "urban". I listed earlier why my wife and I didn't like Washington Avenue. I still view Washington Avenue as an inner loop early version of a mini FM 1960. Instead of neighborhoods of houses along it... you have mini neighborhoods of townhouses. Instead of large strip malls facing it, you have smaller strip malls. Then, everything dumps out onto one long road. Walking along it (or biking) is next to impossible. Getting around requires getting in the car. Yes, Washington might have the appearance of being busy because it forces everyone to cram along one very long road (and businesses do like that)... but that doesn't make it urban. The model works right now because there isn't a ton of people living along Washington. The more Washington grows, the more congested it will become. Midtown, on the other hand, has the capacity and layout to handle future growth and provide for a truly urban, walkable neighborhood in the future.

By that definition, you're comparing Midtown to an area that's about three times its size.

I'd argue that both places have "the capacity and layout to handle future growth and provide for a truly urban, walkable neighborhood in the future." But since the Washington Avenue Corridor is bigger, has larger parcel sizes that can better accommodate higher densities, and higher traffic counts that will encourage new retail businesses, it'll win out.

Midtown would make a better urban environment if you assumed away all of the financial and legal constraints that hinder development, but that's not realistic.

[Reefmonkey]

Getting rid of the one-way streets would help the process along. Overall I think it's too soon to give up hope for midtown.

I would think that one-way streets would make an area MORE walkable, not less. It certainly makes it safer walking across a street when you only have to contend with traffic coming from one direction. Manhattan is all about walking, and it is also mostly one-way streets except for some of the main avenues.

[musicman]

I would think that one-way streets would make an area MORE walkable, not less. It certainly makes it safer walking across a street when you only have to contend with traffic coming from one direction.

It sure should but when you have to contend with valets from the Reef driving cars the wrong way on Travis, don't let your guard down!

[N Judah]

I would think that one-way streets would make an area MORE walkable, not less. It certainly makes it safer walking across a street when you only have to contend with traffic coming from one direction.

I would be very surprised if converting midtown to two-way streets made it less walkable. I think "walkable" might not be the word I want to use in this context. Maybe "pedestrian-oriented" or "pedestrian friendly."

[brian0123]

I would think that one-way streets would make an area MORE walkable, not less. It certainly makes it safer walking across a street when you only have to contend with traffic coming from one direction. Manhattan is all about walking, and it is also mostly one-way streets except for some of the main avenues.

I love the one-way streets in Midtown. It is a lot easier not having to look left and right everywhere you go (when driving or walking). I sure hope they never make it two-ways.

[sowanome]

Brian0123...just curious, where'd you live when you were off of Washington Ave?

When I lived off Wash. Ave in 06&07, only a CERTAIN portion of the area was walkable(but I can't say that the entire corridor is walkable) in regards to food, bars, etc...however there are a lot more wine/bars/eateries there now, so anything is possible depending on how close you live to that cluster (East of TC jester...West of Yale/Heights) places.

Midtown definitely has the upper hand when considering that everything isn't on one street...But has the growth rate slowed in Midtown? that's where Wash Ave has the upper hand. IMO, you just can't compare Washington Ave to Midtown (and it's grid)...2 totally different areas.

I'm under the impression that Wash Ave will grow more into an area similar to Rice Village or W.11th (but w/o the West Univ./Heights influence)

[CSOM]

I love the one-way streets in Midtown. It is a lot easier not having to look left and right everywhere you go (when driving or walking). I sure hope they never make it two-ways.

You should ALWAYS look both ways. Cars may only come from one direction, but pedestrians come from both ways, as do vagrants on bicycles.

[brian0123]

You should ALWAYS look both ways. Cars may only come from one direction, but pedestrians come from both ways, as do vagrants on bicycles.

Sorry, didn't mean that I never look (I just look left and right then go). I meant that I don't have to look left, then right, then left, then crap here comes a car... then right, then left (you get my point). I've actually seen a vagrant hit by a car pulling out because the driver failed to look for him driving the wrong way.

Brian0123...just curious, where'd you live when you were off of Washington Ave?

When I lived off Wash. Ave in 06&07, only a CERTAIN portion of the area was walkable(but I can't say that the entire corridor is walkable) in regards to food, bars, etc...however there are a lot more wine/bars/eateries there now, so anything is possible depending on how close you live to that cluster (East of TC jester...West of Yale/Heights) places.

Midtown definitely has the upper hand when considering that everything isn't on one street...But has the growth rate slowed in Midtown? that's where Wash Ave has the upper hand. IMO, you just can't compare Washington Ave to Midtown (and it's grid)...2 totally different areas.

I'm under the impression that Wash Ave will grow more into an area similar to Rice Village or W.11th (but w/o the West Univ./Heights influence)

I lived at Memorial Heights Dr. and Washington (near the CVS)... so I was out of the zone that you mentioned. I agree that it's hard to compare Washington Ave to Midtown. And yes, I agree with you that Washington Ave will probably end up being like Rice Village (although a little more stretched out). Some places will be walkable, but your car will still be required. The only problem that they will have later on is that unlike Rice Village (which is a grid, with major roads nearby)... Washington Ave will have just Washington Ave (hence my 1960 comparison).

As for Midtown, I wouldn't say that growth has slowed at all. Yes, townhouse development has stopped because land values have shot up. However, apartment and condo construction continues. Also, they are building more bars/clubs as we speak (even on the east side). The San Jose Medical Clinic has started construction on their new big building too.

Also, keep in mind that Midtown has not been "Midtown" for very long. It has come a very long way in a short amount of time. Midtown is at a point in it's development where construction projects are requiring a lot more $$$ and financing than just redoing an old building along Washington. For example, here is one example of a project that will happen once banks start lending again.

[TheNiche]

And yes, I agree with you that Washington Ave will probably end up being like Rice Village (although a little more stretched out). Some places will be walkable, but your car will still be required.

What's wrong with the bus? You do like transit, don't you? And for getting around on the Washington Avenue Corridor, it's actually a reasonably efficient form of transportation.

Also, keep in mind that Midtown has not been "Midtown" for very long. It has come a very long way in a short amount of time. Midtown is at a point in it's development where construction projects are requiring a lot more $$$ and financing than just redoing an old building along Washington. For example, here is one example of a project that will happen once banks start lending again.

As a former developer who has investigated building big projects in both neighborhoods, I beg to differ. Washington emerged after Midtown and has has turned around faster; both neighborhoods require big money to continue to evolve; neither neighborhood has a shortage of old buildings on small parcels that are suitable for adaptive reuse.

[The Great Hizzy!]

I think Midtown has better infrastructure (the sidewalks, for example, are generally wider and easier to navigate) but Washington seems to be developing more cohesiveness and seems more functional on a day-to-day basis.

[tamtagon]

Washington Avenue got a "Street Smart" page in January's Texas Monthly. The ten business highlights makes me think it's the kind of place I would like in Houston.

[N Judah]

Here's a link to the article:

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2009-01-01/streetsmarts.php

I like Catalina Coffee a lot.

[GuerrillaLandscape]

By that definition, you're comparing Midtown to an area that's about three times its size.

I'd argue that both places have "the capacity and layout to handle future growth and provide for a truly urban, walkable neighborhood in the future." But since the Washington Avenue Corridor is bigger, has larger parcel sizes that can better accommodate higher densities, and higher traffic counts that will encourage new retail businesses, it'll win out.

Midtown would make a better urban environment if you assumed away all of the financial and legal constraints that hinder development, but that's not realistic.

I agree both places have capacity and moderate layout to handle future growth but both do not have potential for urban walkable neighborhoods. Washington Avenue Corridor is exactly what it sounds like, a one street show. In no way would I compare Washington to HWY 6 because of Washington's accessibility to I-10, Memorial Dr., and 45. The issues with Washington Ave. becoming an urban area is....... Washington Ave. Everything is going to be developed on Washington Ave, while you might be able to walk to one bar or one store there's no way to make it a walkable community without development happening within the residential developed areas and from the looks of progress everyone (retail/commercial) wants to be located on Washington. Midtown on the other hand, has access to 45, 288, 59, I-10, etc any direction you wish to travel. Midtown is laid out in grid format allowing traffic to spread out and not be corralled or funneled threw one street like the rest of Houston. There's at least one or two bars, restaurants, gas station, Pharmacy and etc. within walking distance of every resident in Midtown. Due to the commerce not being located in one centralized area or along one strip. I would have to say Midtown has more potential to become a traditional urban environment and Washington has more potential to be a Texas style urban environment both spread out and vertical.

[TheNiche]

I agree both places have capacity and moderate layout to handle future growth but both do not have potential for urban walkable neighborhoods. Washington Avenue Corridor is exactly what it sounds like, a one street show. In no way would I compare Washington to HWY 6 because of Washington's accessibility to I-10, Memorial Dr., and 45. The issues with Washington Ave. becoming an urban area is....... Washington Ave. Everything is going to be developed on Washington Ave, while you might be able to walk to one bar or one store there's no way to make it a walkable community without development happening within the residential developed areas and from the looks of progress everyone (retail/commercial) wants to be located on Washington. Midtown on the other hand, has access to 45, 288, 59, I-10, etc any direction you wish to travel. Midtown is laid out in grid format allowing traffic to spread out and not be corralled or funneled threw one street like the rest of Houston. There's at least one or two bars, restaurants, gas station, Pharmacy and etc. within walking distance of every resident in Midtown. Due to the commerce not being located in one centralized area or along one strip. I would have to say Midtown has more potential to become a traditional urban environment and Washington has more potential to be a Texas style urban environment both spread out and vertical.

That's just the thing, though. Let's say that you live in Rise, the condos that used to be part of Post Midtown. As the crow flies, you're 1/4 mile from the entrance to the Randalls. But to walk there, you have to go two and a half blocks south, then three and a half blocks east. That adds 44% to the total trip distance and puts it beyond the range of what most urban planners would consider a walkable distance. And certainly there's neither a local bus or a shuttle that'll take you directly from one place to the other. There are just too many destinations that are all scattered around.

On Washington Avenue, dense development lines a corridor. Nearly everything is developed on that corridor. It's a straight shot, all of which is served by a transit route. Granted, it doesn't have a grocery store (yet), but these amenities will come soon enough.

[sowanome]

hmmm..so have we concluded that you can't compare one street "Wash. Ave" (no matter how great the surrounding n.hood may be) to an entire zip code/n.hood of MidTown (with its pre existing multi-story buildings and street grid)?

If comparing, let's go with "apples to apples/oranges to oranges"..(Washington Ave. is too long of a street to ever be as dense/urban as MidTown w/n 5yrs.)

[Don Julio]

Here's a link to the article:

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2009-01-01/streetsmarts.php

Wow, Texas Monthly does an article on Washington Avenue, and manages to overlook everything significant about Washington Avenue? How very Texas Monthly of them.

Here's my Washington Avenue tour, heading west from Downtown:

1. AVENUE GRILL (Washington@Houston) -- The only old fashioned greasy spoon still left in the shadow of downtown? Quite possibly. Been there forever.

2. ST. VINCENT DE PAUL THRIFT SHOP (2020)

3. SALVATION ARMY (2118) Also a Wash Ave landmark. A welcome relief from the Mid Century Modern store across the street...for people who think paying $1500 for a chair (which you can't sit in) makes sense.

4. STAR PIZZA (77 Harvard @ Wash) I'm not into deep dish pizza, but those who are rave about Star.

5. HICKORY HOLLOW (101 Heights @ Wash) BBQ and country music -- a Washington Ave tradition since the '30s.

6. GUADALAJARA BAKERY (4003) No menu -- says it all! The Chron did a story last year on it being sold to some developers, but it's still open.

7. WALTER'S (4215) Still keeping live music happening on Washington despite the odds.

8. LAREDO TACO PLACE (915 Snover@ Wash) Great tamales, and of course tacos, this place is always packed.

9. EL REY CUBAN & MEXICAN CUISINE (Shepherd @ Wash) Extra points for the drive thru

10. DOS AMIGOS (5720) My personal favorite, Mrs. Cantu is always super friendly, and the nachos are the best.

Been there for at least 20 years now.

11. SPEC'S (6010) The only new business really worth mentioning.

12. SHIPLEY'S DO-NUTS (6115) Was this the original location? Great '30s era pic on the wall showing Mr. Shipley and crew. A Houston institution, great that they're still going strong. I refuse to buy donuts anywhere else.

[OkieEric]

That's just the thing, though. Let's say that you live in Rise, the condos that used to be part of Post Midtown. As the crow flies, you're 1/4 mile from the entrance to the Randalls. But to walk there, you have to go two and a half blocks south, then three and a half blocks east. That adds 44% to the total trip distance and puts it beyond the range of what most urban planners would consider a walkable distance. And certainly there's neither a local bus or a shuttle that'll take you directly from one place to the other. There are just too many destinations that are all scattered around.

Now wait...so I guess it'll be better for the townhome residents along Washington to walk ~1/4 mile to Washington, hook a left and head another mile down to the non-existent (future) grocery store? I think it's much more likely neither area will be all that urban or walkable any time soon

[sowanome]

8. LAREDO TACO PLACE (915 Snover@ Wash) Great tamales, and of course tacos, this place is always packed.

And they make them on the spot....for cheap too!!

[musicman]

2. ST. VINCENT DE PAUL THRIFT SHOP (2020)

i don't believe this is open anymore.

[TheNiche]

Now wait...so I guess it'll be better for the townhome residents along Washington to walk ~1/4 mile to Washington, hook a left and head another mile down to the non-existent (future) grocery store? I think it's much more likely neither area will be all that urban or walkable any time soon

New townhome developments are typically at 12-18 units per acre. New apartment developments are typically right up along Washington or in the case of Memorial Heights are just off of Washington along a walkable major thoroughfare with retail along it. And four-story stick construction wrapped around structured parking yields closer to 60 units per acre. I'm trying to assess the comparative futures of each neighborhood, and while there certainly will be more townhomes built along the periphery of the Washington Avenue Corridor, they will play a lesser role in the densification of the Corridor than will townhomes.

...besides which, I've already stated several times now: once you get to Washington Avenue, you can catch the bus and go all up or down the corridor, accessing the majority of businesses in the area without being on foot. Since you aren't walking at that point, walkable distances no longer act as a barrier.