Houston's Own Grand Central Station-Downtown Transit Hub

[nmainguy]

dalparadise:

Wow...scatological insults and name calling all in one post.

Me thinks you have rendered yourself irrelevant.

dbigtex56:

Some think-according to Freud?-trains represent male genetalia.

I absolutly LOVE trains!

[SMUrban]

I think both sides bring up interesting arguments. I live in Dallas and I do not use mass transit. I visit Chicago and New York routinely and I do use their systems, especially in Chicago. On a recent trip to Houston I used the Main Street line to go from Downtown to Reliant to catch a game, granted it made no sense since I was coming from Clear Lake (wanted to try it out). I believe it is slow (building at grade was a big mistake) and why it even stops in that wasteland called Midtown, I have no idea. I realize that they planned for the future and they plan on this place being redeveloped

Up until recently in cities not named NY or Chicago (i.e. sprawl cities) mass transit has been focused towards people with no other means to get around. To be frank the target market of METRO, DART, etc. has been poor people. I think with the move towards the city center, density New Urbanism, etc. the focus has / will be shifted to moving people no matter their economic means. The higher the income level the pickier the customer, I'm not breaking news that people will ride a train that won't ride a bus, count me as one of them. I use the train as a cost to benefit ratio. I can spend about $45 (including a freaking tip) to go from O'hare or Midway to Downtown in the same time it takes me to get downtown on the L, and I get a free transfer that takes me three blocks from where I usually stay at my buddy's place in Lincoln Park. I get to relax, same as in a cab, yet the savings are huge. I MIGHT save 15-20 minutes in a cab but I'll take the savings any day.

I think the inter-modal or whatever is a good idea. I wish it was a little more central in Downtown, but that seems to be a moot point. I believe the area will grow up around it and let's hope this Hardy Yards project becomes a new urbanists wet dream, if that happens maybe you get office development that heads north and all the sudden "the barrier" becomes a raised freeway in the middle of Downtown 20 years from now...we can dream.

The point of my ramblings is to say we all want Mass Transit, I personally believe that the Main Street Line was executed poorly and was probably hurried as is now evident. I think both Dallas AND Houston screwed up by not building lines to their airports first, I believe that's instant ridership by the masses and frankly the people who vote on bond packages. You train (no pun) these people to accept rail and it makes it easier to get them to use it when service comes to their neighborhood. I realize this is a dream scenario since as usual politics get in the way, everyone wants their share and everyone always feels slighted. So the common good and "highest and best use" is ignored...that's another rant.

[WesternGulf]

I think both sides bring up interesting arguments. I live in Dallas and I do not use mass transit. I visit Chicago and New York routinely and I do use their systems, especially in Chicago. On a recent trip to Houston I used the Main Street line to go from Downtown to Reliant to catch a game, granted it made no sense since I was coming from Clear Lake (wanted to try it out). I believe it is slow (building at grade was a big mistake) and why it even stops in that wasteland called Midtown, I have no idea. I realize that they planned for the future and they plan on this place being redeveloped

Up until recently in cities not named NY or Chicago (i.e. sprawl cities) mass transit has been focused towards people with no other means to get around. To be frank the target market of METRO, DART, etc. has been poor people. I think with the move towards the city center, density New Urbanism, etc. the focus has / will be shifted to moving people no matter their economic means. The higher the income level the pickier the customer, I'm not breaking news that people will ride a train that won't ride a bus, count me as one of them. I use the train as a cost to benefit ratio. I can spend about $45 (including a freaking tip) to go from O'hare or Midway to Downtown in the same time it takes me to get downtown on the L, and I get a free transfer that takes me three blocks from where I usually stay at my buddy's place in Lincoln Park. I get to relax, same as in a cab, yet the savings are huge. I MIGHT save 15-20 minutes in a cab but I'll take the savings any day.

I think the inter-modal or whatever is a good idea. I wish it was a little more central in Downtown, but that seems to be a moot point. I believe the area will grow up around it and let's hope this Hardy Yards project becomes a new urbanists wet dream, if that happens maybe you get office development that heads north and all the sudden "the barrier" becomes a raised freeway in the middle of Downtown 20 years from now...we can dream.

The point of my ramblings is to say we all want Mass Transit, I personally believe that the Main Street Line was executed poorly and was probably hurried as is now evident. I think both Dallas AND Houston screwed up by not building lines to their airports first, I believe that's instant ridership by the masses and frankly the people who vote on bond packages. You train (no pun) these people to accept rail and it makes it easier to get them to use it when service comes to their neighborhood. I realize this is a dream scenario since as usual politics get in the way, everyone wants their share and everyone always feels slighted. So the common good and "highest and best use" is ignored...that's another rant.

Point well taken.

BTW, I love this pic from Housotnist.

[GovernorAggie]

So how can I say a few things about the station without "giving too much"...well, the facility will be much more impressive that we all think it will be. The point--it's been said that this will be the METRO CEO's signature, legacy-type project. Want to see the type of things that happened? Look at EEK's stuff done for New Jersey Transit, which is where Wilson was also a director.

The project would likely be multi-level (almost has to be using the grade-separation at Main/Burnett). It could also include multiple stories of uses above the facility and could include retail/restaurant options. The park-and-ride facility obviously may be in the form of a parking garage.

Finally, look at the price tag of $150 million--isn't that nearly the price of Toyota Center? A third of Reliant Stadium? $50 million less than Houston Pavilions (25% less). Of course, some of that will include the costs of infrastructure (i.e. platforms).

[dalparadise]

dalparadise:

Wow...scatological insults and name calling all in one post.

Me thinks you have rendered yourself irrelevant.

Bolderdash.

[largeTEXAS]

EEK's plans for NJ Transit look pretty good, but there's not much to see. Have to admit that I'm still not crazy about their designs for Main Street Square. I kind of hoped for more...

[DJ V Lawrence]

Bull$#!+.

JERRY!! JERRY!! JERRY!!...

Back to topic, Do you think Metro Houston would build a Station old-school style archiecture like Cinninati, Cleveland and New York, or something more futuristic like Indianapolis?

Personally, I think futuristic...

[WesternGulf]

JERRY!! JERRY!! JERRY!!...

Back to topic, Do you think Metro Houston would build a Station old-school style archiecture like Cinninati, Cleveland and New York, or something more futuristic like Indianapolis?

Personally, I think futuristic...

Ewwww.......and have something looking like the Renoir? I'll take current architecture or modern sounds about right. As far as calatrava nmainguy, I am sure he would have t work with more than 150 million.

[SMUrban]

I don't really care what style they decide on, as long as it's not surrounded by a Park and Ride lot. If I had to vote, I'd vote modern/futuristic...as long as their idea of futuristic isn't the George R Brown.

[WesternGulf]

I don't really care what style they decide on, as long as it's not surrounded by a Park and Ride lot. If I had to vote, I'd vote modern/futuristic...as long as their idea of futuristic isn't the George R Brown.

That thing is horrid. Especially the part that butts the freeway. I even hated that thing as a child when I didn't know a lick about architecture. I was maybe 5 or 6 years old. The scary thing is, they did a great job replicating the original with the expansion.

[Jeebus]

Some think-according to Freud?-trains represent male genetalia.

I absolutly LOVE trains!

Oh God..

On a more serious note, I have to agree with Dalparadise. The DTC is a quagmire. I kept waiting and waiting during construction to see how they were going to implement the light rail into their bus barn/terminal. I was so disappointed when the ribbon was cut and there was no incorporation of the lightrail that was less than one block away. How hard would it have been to create an underpass for Main St., reverse the layout of the building & terminal, and use all of Main St. to tie in with the rail?

Don't tell me it wouldn't work, or ask where Amtrak & Greyhound would go. Amtrak doesn't warrant enough ridership to be of concern. If we're that worried about interstate travel, then maybe we should build our Grand Central Station next to Terminal C at IAH - as this is where all the interstate travel is coming from. As for Greyhound, if you converted Main St. into an underpass and moved the light rail over to the northbound lanes, then you would have the south bound lanes for bus arrivals - still leaving room for the bus barn/terminal on the property.

I voted yes to the future too - but not to a StarTrek inspired New Orleans Trolley.

[dbigtex56]

I voted yes to the future too - but not to a StarTrek inspired New Orleans Trolley.

Ahh...so you don't Desire a Streetcar?

You're in luck. We have a light rail system.

Trolleys:

• must be boarded by climbing steps - inconvenient for strollers, wheelchairs, bicycles and the handicapped.

• requires passengers to pay fares while boarding, slowing the process.

• has only one or two narrow entrance/exits, which accomodate only one passenger at a time.

• pick up and discharge people in the street, unprotected from automotive traffic.

• are of limited passenger capacity.

Light rail:

• same level as platform - passengers, shopping carts, bicycles, wheelchairs enter and exit smoothly.

• passengers pay fares prior to boarding.

• have several entrance/exits, each wide enough to allow two people to pass.

• pick up and discharge passengers on a platform seperated from automotive traffic.

• can be linked to double capacity during peak hours.

And buses? With the exception of picking up and discharging people in the middle of the street, they possess all the disadvantages of a trolley. In addition, they're noisy, don't ride as smoothly, and are subject to swerving, which is uncomfortable (and sometimes dangerous) to standing passengers.

So get out of your horseless carriage sometime, and give light rail a try.

[bachanon]

the light rail line is great. the main street corridor was perfect for our first LR line. unfortunately, the benefits of it are long term. we cannot poo-poo something that hasn't seen it's glory days yet. the "grand central" project will only enhance/build upon what is already there. houston has only begun to embrace mass transit. it will be imperfect and painful. it is necessity. whining about its imperfections is a waste of energy.

[DJ V Lawrence]

I don't really care what style they decide on, as long as it's not surrounded by a Park and Ride lot. If I had to vote, I'd vote modern/futuristic...as long as their idea of futuristic isn't the George R Brown.

Good point on the George R. Brown. Not exactly futuristic looking now, but it probably was badass to the architect that designed it 15-20 years ago.

Only reason why I say futuristic though is because even though the building would serve the same general purpose as New York's Grand Central Station does for buses and all transport, I would imagine that the architect for the Houston design would try to stay as original as possible. I feel as if the older designs like Cinninati and Cleveland look like ripoffs of New Yorks, even though it probably wasn't the architect's intent

[bachanon]

like someone said b4...........grand central in nyc is a destination, ours is a pass through, mass transit interchange. it's unproductive to compare the two.

[RedScare]

While I can see the point that the bus transfer station may be more convenient on the Main Street side of the block, I wouldn't describe it as the end of the world as we know it. I also can see that it's present location has 3 usable streets surrounding it, while Main Street has only one lane in each direction, and no left turns. That may have entered the equation. I am quite sure that those of you who are outraged by this design have registered your outrage by not using the Transit Center. METRO will have to limp along without you.

Now, back to the Intermodal, which is what this thread is about. I would love to hear from those who do not like this location, what locations might work better. I would also like to hear how you would accomodate the light rail, commuter rail, busses and AmTrak lines in your alternate location. I'd also like to hear your thoughts as to whether high speed rail might be able to dock at your alternate site, if that ever becomes a reality.

As for this current spot, all of these modes of transit can be accomodated. And, assuming it cannot fit into Downtown proper, I like this location better than other nearby locations, such as Old Chinatown. A big part of locating this Terminal where it is proposed may be the incredible development that it may spur. Not only is Hardy Yards across the street, but a huge parcel of land is south and west of the site, running alongside the east bank of White Oak Bayou. It used to be listed for sale on HAR, but I don't see it there anymore.

This area could become one of the few truly pedestrian oriented areas in Houston. With the Houston/Woodland Heights to the west, and Downtown to the south, the Near Northside/North Main corridor could explode with new devolopment and gentrification.

The only downside is the I-10 scar dividing this area and Downtown. However, putting the Intermodal in this location will draw attention to this freeway. It is old and congested. The impetus to redo or relocated this freeway in a manner that connects the Northside will be strong. In time, this could expand the footprint of Downtown and help reconnect it to the surrounding neighborhoods. That can only be considered a good thing.

[Montrose1100]

I'm curious to see the rendering. I hope its conservative, and not something "whitty" like the museum in Seattle, or those weird "Blob" buildings in Europe. I wish it would look like the museum in Valencia.

[CE_ugh]

like someone said b4...........grand central in nyc is a destination, ours is a pass through, mass transit interchange. it's unproductive to compare the two.

Maybe we could compare it to Jamaica Station

[dalparadise]

While I can see the point that the bus transfer station may be more convenient on the Main Street side of the block, I wouldn't describe it as the end of the world as we know it. I also can see that it's present location has 3 usable streets surrounding it, while Main Street has only one lane in each direction, and no left turns. That may have entered the equation. I am quite sure that those of you who are outraged by this design have registered your outrage by not using the Transit Center. METRO will have to limp along without you.

Now, back to the Intermodal, which is what this thread is about. I would love to hear from those who do not like this location, what locations might work better. I would also like to hear how you would accomodate the light rail, commuter rail, busses and AmTrak lines in your alternate location. I'd also like to hear your thoughts as to whether high speed rail might be able to dock at your alternate site, if that ever becomes a reality.

As for this current spot, all of these modes of transit can be accomodated. And, assuming it cannot fit into Downtown proper, I like this location better than other nearby locations, such as Old Chinatown. A big part of locating this Terminal where it is proposed may be the incredible development that it may spur. Not only is Hardy Yards across the street, but a huge parcel of land is south and west of the site, running alongside the east bank of White Oak Bayou. It used to be listed for sale on HAR, but I don't see it there anymore.

This area could become one of the few truly pedestrian oriented areas in Houston. With the Houston/Woodland Heights to the west, and Downtown to the south, the Near Northside/North Main corridor could explode with new devolopment and gentrification.

The only downside is the I-10 scar dividing this area and Downtown. However, putting the Intermodal in this location will draw attention to this freeway. It is old and congested. The impetus to redo or relocated this freeway in a manner that connects the Northside will be strong. In time, this could expand the footprint of Downtown and help reconnect it to the surrounding neighborhoods. That can only be considered a good thing.

I agree with you to a large degree, but have to differ on a couple of points. First of all -- who cares about Amtrak and Greyhound? Nobody uses these in Texas, where spaces are large and airfare is relatively cheap, so why should we be concerned with them?

Second, about ten years ago, all of Metro and city government got together and decided that Downtown would be their focus and its redevelopment would make or break this city. From that came the beginnings of something called Midtown, which, in my eyes has so far been a huge disappointment. What little growth has happened in Midtown has also, as I see it, come somewhat at the expense of Downtown, though some of the residential has, in fact, bolstered Downtown's revitalization.

My point is that we complain a lot about how spread out everything is, even in Downtown, where Toyota Center, Main St. The Ballpark and Bayou Place seem too far apart to make a cohesive destination. Now, you say that crossing the bayou into a ghetto to build a new pedestrian environment around an inconvenient train station must only be viewed as a good thing. We differ on this point. I believe it can only hamper Downtown's attempts to get a foothold, which it has been struggling to do ever since Metro's last debacle of ripping up every street in the area at once, going three years over deadline and bankrupting many of the businesses there. Downtown still hasn't seen a solid rebound from that "gift to the city".

Houston needs an exit strategy in all of its urban planning. As a city, there must be a point when we declare a project finished and can enjoy it until it's time to expand it, whether it's freeways, convention centers entertainment districts or transportation networks. I believe Downtown is 1/4 what it could or should be. Why would we want to expand it? Let's focus on existing pedestrian environments and enhancements to them, that connect our disparate dots. Let's also figure out an acceptable way to make this area accessible to our population, not just visitors.

The overwhelming majority of our population lives in low-density areas that stretch out 8-10 miles from Downtown and beyond. We can change their viewpoints with a mass transit system that actually works, meaning it moves them where they'd like to go at speeds and convenience to render their personal cars less appealing. The trolley we now have (the fact that it doesn't have steps makes it no less of a trolley) does not serve the new riders who I believe will ultimately make up the urban fabric of Houston. Quoting ridership levels does not convince me. I believe the people on the light rail are the same people who were riding a bus in 2000. You took their bus away and now they ride a train to make their slow, plodding connections. Please don't claim this as a success.

When we talk about hundreds of millions of dollars for a public project, it should be a real source of pride for the city, not just a "me-to" to wave at Dallas or wherever, to prove we're worthy of hosting a football game. Seriously guys -- this is going to run into the billions of dollars when it's all done. Will it really be a source of pride? Or, is it just a trophy of being a "world -class city".

Will a system where the train's length cannot be extended serve riders in the Chimney Rock area who are traveling Downtown? No. Will a city of the 21st century accept a 30-40 minute "rapid transit" ride from the West Loop to Downtown? No. Will we be able to find other streets people will be willing to render useless to anything but train traffic, as is virtually the case with Main? No.

We had almost a clean slate with the Main corridor. Very little stood in the way of Metro and they were free to build whatever they wanted. What we got is a system that's inefficient, often dangerous, limited in passenger-handling capacity and laughably slow. And this was cutting through areas most people didn't care about! Imagine the resistance and roadblocks they'll get if they try to force this albatross on an area where people actually care about their neighborhood.

[nmainguy]

Now, you say that crossing the bayou into a ghetto to build a new pedestrian environment around an inconvenient train station must only be viewed as a good thing.

Imagine the resistance and roadblocks they'll get if they try to force this albatross on an area where people actually care about their neighborhood.

People in ghettos rarely if at all care about their surroundings.

People in neighborhoods usually do.

You diparage the location at the beginning of your post and show concern for the same location at the end.

So what's happening here? Are we invading a ghetto or a neighborhood?

Make up your mind.

[dalparadise]

People in ghettos rarely if at all care about their surroundings.

People in neighborhoods usually do.

You diparage the location at the beginning of your post and show concern for the same location at the end.

So what's happening here? Are we invading a ghetto or a neighborhood?

Make up your mind.

Bolderdash.

I don't think you read the whole thing. These are two separate thoughts. Perhaps you're only capable of one at a time.

More likely, judging from your name, you're in favor of this Grand Central Station because it might have a positive effect on the ghetto where you live. That's just the kind of thinking that has made Metro such a mess. When they make public projects cater to the interests of a few, everybody loses.

[nmainguy]

Bullshit.

I don't think you read the whole thing. These are two separate thoughts. Perhaps you're only capable of one at a time.

Of course I read the entire post.

How else do you think I noticed your condridiction?

Also, editor? I thought profanity was censored out?

[dalparadise]

Of course I read the entire post.

How else do you think I noticed your condridiction?

Also, editor? I thought profanity was censored out?

I haven't implemented some program to allow language that isn't filtered by this board. So, as far as I know, I am abiding by board guidelines. I'm not sure I can say the same about your discussions where you infer that you love sodomy.

Now, before you go calling me a Republican, please know that I nursed my uncle till his death of AIDS, donate to Bering Omega House frequently, have lived much of my life in Montrose and The Heights and...jeez, I can't believe I'm about to say this -- many of my best friends are gay. In fact, my best man in my wedding is gay. I mention this only because I am straight and though your discussion doesn't bother me, I believe your implication that you love male genitalia is specifically againt the board guidelines.

There is a language filter to catch what is deemed profanity. There is no way to filter out the things you say, but I am grown up enough not to get concerned about it...until you start crying about what I post when you are clearly antagonizing me by being consciously obtuse.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

Alright guys. Try to keep this discussion on topic. If y'all really want to continue this, I suggest you take it to the side and IM or email each other.

This has nothing to do with the train station.

[bachanon]

come on guys........simmer down!

[4thWardBoy]

how bout hiring metro drivers that don't keep all of houston drivers in a state of terror at all times.

[CE_ugh]

I haven't implemented some program to allow language that isn't filtered by this board. So, as far as I know, I am abiding by board guidelines. I'm not sure I can say the same about your discussions where you infer that you love sodomy.

Now, before you go calling me a Republican, please know that I nursed my uncle till his death of AIDS, donate to Bering Omega House frequently, have lived much of my life in Montrose and The Heights and...jeez, I can't believe I'm about to say this -- many of my best friends are gay. In fact, my best man in my wedding is gay. I mention this only because I am straight and though your discussion doesn't bother me, I believe your implication that you love male genitalia is specifically againt the board guidelines.

There is a language filter to catch what is deemed profanity. There is no way to filter out the things you say, but I am grown up enough not to get concerned about it...until you start crying about what I post when you are clearly antagonizing me by being consciously obtuse.

Wow, all this from talking about trains.

[dalparadise]

Wow, all this from talking about trains.

Some think-according to Freud-trains represent male genetalia.

[jdnn]

Unfortunately I too don't get the point...

An intermodal place would be good with the airport included, not only trains. If it only included trains, then whatever happened with the "train" intersection of Main and the new Galleria line being planned? Couldn't the intermodal be there instead? With buses too maybe?

So what's the point of the intermodal if most people don't take trains or buses (although I'll admit that they're cheaper than airfare as airfare can be ridiculously expensive from Houston -- Flying to Caracas, Venezuela is cheaper from Los Angeles, Miami and New York, even though we're closer than LAX). Thanks to Continental for having a monopoly.

Imagine a visitor wanting to go to the Galleria. He would visit Houston supposedly with Amtrak or Greyhound in order to reach the intermodal. And then he would have to take the metrorail and take another one to change lines. The only good thing I can see about this intermodal is some kind of touristy waterway transportation (if that's possible).

The only rationale I see for them making an intermodal this way is to unite various rail lines that are being planned, but I don't know if it does anything for urbanity for urbanity sake! METRO is just looking for a place to terminate their rail lines and just happened to think to make the most use of whatever downtown has (which unfortunately means bus and train services and nothing else). In a way, it might be a smart move, but I can't give a guarantee.

[nmainguy]

More ideas/examples

Wilkinson Eyre Architects

Dante Leonelli

Sheppard Robson