2727 Kirby: Condominium High-Rise At 2727 Kirby Dr.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Not a bad idea, Vic Man.

[houston-development]

i heard this weekend that they plan on charging $0.65 psf for hoa dues

[Gary]

i heard this weekend that they plan on charging $0.65 psf for hoa dues

Holy crap! That's $975.00 a month for 1500 square feet.

[jdbaker]

Holy crap! That's $975.00 a month for 1500 square feet.

And, they're asking $400-$800 psf. As a buyer you would get slammed in three ways. First, $.65 psf in HOA fees is way, way too much for a new building. You can purchase a lot of services ala carte for that money. Second, they're asking $400-$800 psf. These prices would be very competitive, in New York. Then as a reward for setting the new $ psf record for all Houston residential real estate you'll get to pay record taxes psf. Can you imagine paying $24 psf per year in property tax?

Edited November 27, 2006 by jdbaker

[houston-development]

And, they're asking $400-$1000 psf. As a buyer you would get slammed in three ways. First, $.65 psf in HOA fees is way, way too much for a new building. You can purchase a lot of services ala carte for that money. Second, they're asking $400-$800 psf. These prices would be very competitive, in New York. Then as a reward for setting the new $ psf record for all Houston residential real estate you'll get to pay record taxes psf. Can you imagine paying $24 psf per year in property tax?

what are you talking about $400 - $1,000 psf?

and just so everyone knows, $0.65 is not completely unreasonable going forward. assures buyers that the reserve will be flush and they dont have to worry about a reassessment any time soon.

and you cant find anything in nyc for $400 psf that would be comparable to 2727 kirby. would think easily $1,000+.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Regardless, too rich for my blood.

[JWW]

And, they're asking $400-$1000 psf. As a buyer you would get slammed in three ways. First, $.65 psf in HOA fees is way, way too much for a new building. You can purchase a lot of services ala carte for that money. Second, they're asking $400-$800 psf. These prices would be very competitive, in New York. Then as a reward for setting the new $ psf record for all Houston residential real estate you'll get to pay record taxes psf. Can you imagine paying $24 psf per year in property tax?

? Where did you get the number of $1000 psf being charged? The penthouse, somewhere around 10k sf is listed in the 8 million dollar range...nothing else on the floor plans comes near that psf. I don't know what the tax assessed value of the units will be but, hypothetically, should Harris county be able to charge up to 1percent of assessed value for annual property tax (down from 1.5 percent which Perry's awful bill lowered)? If so I'm confused how $24 psf per year in property tax can be charged...wouldn't the limit be $10 psf if your declaration of $1000 psf price stood? Also, $400-$800 psf competitive in NY? Are you out of your mind? Buildings similar to this (obviously a major height difference, but similar materials, amenities, etc) in nyc like www.orion42.com or others are going for at LEAST $1100 psf (as of last week) and easily past $1300 psf.

I will say $.65 psf for HOA in Houston is pushing it.....

[jdbaker]

? Where did you get the number of $1000 psf being charged? The penthouse, somewhere around 10k sf is listed in the 8 million dollar range...nothing else on the floor plans comes near that psf. I don't know what the tax assessed value of the units will be but, hypothetically, should Harris county be able to charge up to 1percent of assessed value for annual property tax (down from 1.5 percent which Perry's awful bill lowered)? If so I'm confused how $24 psf per year in property tax can be charged...wouldn't the limit be $10 psf if your declaration of $1000 psf price stood? Also, $400-$800 psf competitive in NY? Are you out of your mind? Buildings similar to this (obviously a major height difference, but similar materials, amenities, etc) in nyc like www.orion42.com or others are going for at LEAST $1100 psf (as of last week) and easily past $1300 psf.

I will say $.65 psf for HOA in Houston is pushing it.....

The $1000 psf was a typo, as you can see I corrected it later in the paragraph. $400-$800 is the correct figure according to har.com. As for the New York reference, I was being facetious. I'm well aware that comparable units in NYC would cost well in excess of $400-$800. However, I'm also aware that these prices are at least equally out of place in Houston as they would be in NY. Property is assessed at market value (i.e. purchase price) in Harris County. My understanding is that a typical homeowner is taxed at a little over 3% of the assessed value (w/o homestead exemption). So, assuming a purchase price of $800 psf at 3% yields $24 psf in yearly property taxes. Am I missing something?

Edited November 28, 2006 by jdbaker

[JWW]

The $1000 psf was a typo, as you can see I corrected it later in the paragraph. $400-$800 is the correct figure according to har.com. As for the New York reference, I was being facetious. I'm well aware that comparable units in NYC would cost well in excess of $400-$800. However, I'm also aware that these prices are at least equally out of place in Houston as they would be in NY. Property is assessed at market value (i.e. purchase price) in Harris County. My understanding is that a typical homeowner is taxed at a little over 3% of the assessed value (w/o homestead exemption). So, assuming a purchase price of $800 psf at 3% yields $24 psf in yearly property taxes. Am I missing something?

Yeah, wouldn't have expected one comment in your post to be facetious. And I don't see that you 'corrected' the $1000 psf number - I just saw you used a different one later. Not getting too much clarity with those 'points'.

I remember reading in the Chronicle a few years back that the architect for the (now defunct? I'm not sure) Riparian in Montrose claimed Houston would be able to fetch $1000 psf in a 'few years'. What a joke.

I know I have read after the recent propert tax reduction (and simultaneously screwing every business in Texas) law was enacted, the counties in Texas could tax at a maximum of 1% of assessed value (used to be 1.5 percent). Maybe that is with homestead exemption? Maybe not? Only thing I can think of is the school property tax cannot be higher than that 1%, maybe the other property taxes would add up to the 3%. But wouldn't one assume the vast majority of these units would be for primary homes, as we ALL know the market for second home condos in Houston vs. other cities. Atlas and Jerry definitely know that. Therefore, if the vast majority of units would be for primary homeowners (and again I am just assuming that), would they not be able to get a homestead exemption on those units?

Edited November 28, 2006 by JWW

[Dream]

I think we should all get behind this building and be positive. This is going to be the best address in the city and a very impressive building. I've had enough high rise dissappointments the last few years. GO ATLAS!

Remember, there are more super rich Americans and Houstonians today than ever before. There was an article on the front page of the NYTimes today about the VERY RICH leaving the Merely Rich Behind. The money and the buyers are out there and this development team keeps moving forward. I say, keep at it and I can't wait to see this building go up.

Dream

[JWW]

I think we should all get behind this building and be positive. This is going to be the best address in the city and a very impressive building. I've had enough high rise dissappointments the last few years. GO ATLAS!

Remember, there are more super rich Americans and Houstonians today than ever before. There was an article on the front page of the NYTimes today about the VERY RICH leaving the Merely Rich Behind. The money and the buyers are out there and this development team keeps moving forward. I say, keep at it and I can't wait to see this building go up.

Dream

Good article, or at least interesteing, in the NYTimes.... I wouldn't say that's the reason to risk so much, but in general I agree. I'm an extraordinary fan of this building and cannot wait to see Atlas and Jerry succeed..

[houston-development]

The $1000 psf was a typo, as you can see I corrected it later in the paragraph. $400-$800 is the correct figure according to har.com. As for the New York reference, I was being facetious. I'm well aware that comparable units in NYC would cost well in excess of $400-$800. However, I'm also aware that these prices are at least equally out of place in Houston as they would be in NY. Property is assessed at market value (i.e. purchase price) in Harris County. My understanding is that a typical homeowner is taxed at a little over 3% of the assessed value (w/o homestead exemption). So, assuming a purchase price of $800 psf at 3% yields $24 psf in yearly property taxes. Am I missing something?

oh dear..

if you look at har, a majority of the units are $400 - $500 psf. stop focusing only on the high end because it is not a representative sample.

2,000 sq ft sells for $450 / sq ft which equals $900,000. Assuming a full assessment, 3% is $27,000 which is $13.50 / sq ft.

big difference between my number and yours, eh?

[JWW]

Sounds a lot better, Houston Development...

Also, at least according to Atlas and the sales center, preconstruction prices were near $450 psf (for most units - 2 and 3 bedroom until the higher floors) and were to be raised to $550 psf by now.....

How great if all units got sold before construction ended?

[jdbaker]

oh dear..

if you look at har, a majority of the units are $400 - $500 psf. stop focusing only on the high end because it is not a representative sample.

2,000 sq ft sells for $450 / sq ft which equals $900,000. Assuming a full assessment, 3% is $27,000 which is $13.50 / sq ft.

big difference between my number and yours, eh?

Fair enough. I'm assuming that you have an interest in this development, and it was not my intention to criticize the validity of your project. I think it's a great looking building, and by all means, I wish you success. However, from a buyers perspective, I think it's more difficult to justify the cost of luxury high-rise condo ownership in Houston than in most other cities.

It will be interesting to find out whether there is a market for high-rise living at $400-$500 psf given the availability of nearby single family homes at less than $300 psf. With land prices generally under $200 psf (and more often under $100) in the most expensive parts of the city, it's going to be a while before land prices offset the cost of building up 20-30 stories. As a result, Houston buyers who choose high-rise living pay a substantial premium for their housing choice when compared to buyers of single family homes within the same neighborhood. This a big difference between Houston and Cities like NY, DC, or Boston, where building up dramatically lowers the cost psf of living space.

The other problem is that Houston's property taxing scheme amplifies the penalty imposed on those who pay a premium for housing. It's one thing to pay 1.5x to 2x more psf in terms of purchase price, as this is money the buyer could reasonably expect to recoup. I suspect this wouldn't deter most of those who have the money and the desire to live in a high-end high-rise. However, the burden of paying 3% in taxes on an assessment that is 1.5x-2.0x higher than a nearby single family home is significant, and I suspect this is where you start to significant portion of the potential market.

Edited November 28, 2006 by jdbaker

[txtrader]

I don't think a number of the posters on the board can relate to the person who's buying this kind of property. This building is offering location, security, excusivity and service. Money is not the issue. If you look at the Kirby district 5 years from now with the new Gables property, the planned esplanade for Kirby drive, along with other upscale developments, it probably be one of the most prestigious places to live in Houston.

People who join River Oaks Country Club or other high end clubs aren't deterred by the dues even though they could easily play golf and eat more cheaply somewhere else. They want exclusivity, and service.

Alot of these buyers are empty nesters who are going to shed their large homes. As a result they will get rid of the lawn service, pool service reduce there utility costs and so on. They will be gaining a concierge service, gym, resort pool etc.

I don't think the hoa is an issue.

As far a the cost per square foot, I think Houston is ready.

[TheNiche]

I don't think a number of the posters on the board can relate to the person who's buying this kind of property.

You and jdbaker are BOTH correct. Your comments apply very well to this building and a very few other buildings like it. These represent a niche market that either effectively has no budget constraints or that has a very very strong interest in not getting pestered (i.e. CEOs, celebrities, politicians, etc.).

But jdbaker's comments explain why this kind of housing option isn't something that most of us regular folks are willing to entertain in Houston. He's really very much on the mark.

[houston-development]

Fair enough. I'm assuming that you have an interest in this development, and it was not my intention to criticize the validity of your project. I think it's a great looking building, and by all means, I wish you success. However, from a buyers perspective, I think it's more difficult to justify the cost of luxury high-rise condo ownership in Houston than in most other cities.

It will be interesting to find out whether there is a market for high-rise living at $400-$500 psf given the availability of nearby single family homes at less than $300 psf. With land prices generally under $200 psf (and more often under $100) in the most expensive parts of the city, it's going to be a while before land prices offset the cost of building up 20-30 stories. As a result, Houston buyers who choose high-rise living pay a substantial premium for their housing choice when compared to buyers of single family homes within the same neighborhood. This a big difference between Houston and Cities like NY, DC, or Boston, where building up dramatically lowers the cost psf of living space.

The other problem is that Houston's property taxing scheme amplifies the penalty imposed on those who pay a premium for housing. It's one thing to pay 1.5x to 2x more psf in terms of purchase price, as this is money the buyer could reasonably expect to recoup. I suspect this wouldn't deter most of those who have the money and the desire to live in a high-end high-rise. However, the burden of paying 3% in taxes on an assessment that is 1.5x-2.0x higher than a nearby single family home is significant, and I suspect this is where you start to significant portion of the potential market.

please note that the following post should not be seen as arrogant. if it does, i apologize in advance because its not my intention and PLEASE do not take it that way. just telling it how it is...

obviously you havent read much of this thread. go see how critical and doubtful ive been of it

let me be perfectly clear, i have absolutely, positively ZERO interest in this project. promise.

condos historically command a higher price / sq ft compared to its single-family neighbors; however, the total price is significantly less. while i completely understand your argument, that, my friend, is the whole condo concept. we can agree to disagree but it is what it is.

im guessing that the average unit will go for $800,000 (please, someone correct me if im wrong). Compared to most of the homes in river oaks, you get more for less (ie new construction). and theres a couple of VERY rich houstonians who would love to say that they live in the best unit for only about $8M. thats their ego talking...

land prices, especially in the past 3 years, have gone bonkers (wish I were eloquent enough to acurately describe how nuts its been).you cannot find land on kirby for less than $100 psf. if you know of some and its at least 30k sq ft, please let me know and ill have a contract for you tomorrow. seriously. once you have breached $75 psf (a number that has been confirmed by many), you have to go vertical. tcr is going against this rule on post oak and i wish them the best of luck. hopefully their rents will justify that development.

[houston-development]

originally, there were going to be two deals on the tennis courts. one track was under contract for sale to hanover for a rental high-rise. the other was a 99-year lease to gables for a rental mid-rise. in order for hanover to make their numbers work based upon a HUGE land price, they were going to have numerous upcharges for premium views. everything was going well until gables came back and said they too were going to build a high-rise which would block a majority of hanovers views. this killed hanovers deal and they dropped the contract about 3 or 4 months ago.

i am not aware if gables will end up leasing the entire site or if part of it will be sold. i'm assuming that it will all be leased, but i could be mistaken.

regardless, the deal going up on the tennis courts is being built by an apartment developer and intended for apartments. if a condo converter comes to them on a pre-sale or if gables decides to convert themsleves, then its a different story. but as of a couple of weeks ago (or at least last i heard) it will be apartments.

ooops, edited to add, sorry, i missed velvet's original post. while i appreciate the *coughs*, they are not needed. more than happy to enlighten others when i can.

in regards to the kirby condos, i would give it better than a 50/50 chance. atlas has dropped a pretty sum in the deal and is currently negotiating with the existing tennants. i would say kirby is more realistic than shamrock; however, that's not saying too much as i said earlier, he is moving forward on oak lane which he did as a jv (regardless of what he says to others). so he is getting more experience and a presence within the immediate vicinity.

i was just skimming through the first page and this one caught my eye.

note the date it was written.

hanover could have bought that land for $72 and passed. ask them today what site they regret most passing on, in all of their years as a company. bet you $100 they say kirby/westheimer.

[houston-development]

note to self.

dont feed the troll.

[houston-development]

Hanover has no regrets about not building on that property. They were on the back side of the lot and gables had the front. Hanover backed out b/c the gables buildings would block all hanover views to downtown. Hanover has bigger and better thigs happening. They are going to build two towers at san felipe and post oak. Where the eatzis currently resides. That whole strip center will be demolished and turned in to a 78,000sqft Whole Foods and then hanover will build the towers. Hanover also tried to buy the page parks land from atlas but atlas turned them down.

im going to comment on this once and only once. if you want to flame or continue to troll, more power to you. i just wont participate in it.

first off, you essentially copy and pasted everything i said before.

secondly, if you talked to anyone that was higher up in hanover, they will all tell you they regret not moving forward on dickey site.

thirdly, they are not going to build 2 towers where eatzis is. they are going to build 1 tower and its where the palm reader currently resides.

and finally, hanover did not try to buy page parkes from atlas. tried buying the left over phase of oak lane, in which they passed and zom took it down.

[ricco67]

thirdly, they are not going to build 2 towers where eatzis is. they are going to build 1 tower and its where the palm reader currently resides.

so she saw it coming and she's going to get a nice sum, eh?

[houston-development]

I didn't copy or paste anything. I know for a fact that a HIGHER UP approached atlas for the page parks site. In the pre-development stages of the post oak site, there where going to be 2 towers. If hanover regrets anything about the dickey site, it is that they didn't buy the front piece of the property or that they didn't buy the whole thing. Hanover has Riverway, which is by far the nicest apartment high-rise living in houston. Why are you so mean. I am not trolling. I know what I am talking about. I was simply responding to the first post I read which happened to be yours. Geez, man. Lighten up.

okay, im going to go back on what i said only to show that you dont know what you are talking about. after this, im done.

hanover does not participate in leased land. the site they were going to take down is the only piece that was available for sale of the dickey site, not for lease.

i wont be "mean" if you stop acting like you know facts when you clearly dont.

have a wonderful day and stay warm.

Edited November 30, 2006 by houston-development

[nmainguy]

have some respect

Speaking of respect, how did you come about the name "kirbyhater"?

[houstonfella]

so she saw it coming and she's going to get a nice sum, eh?

Yeah buddy. A palm reader. Can't fool 'em.

[dbigtex56]

First of all, I said nothing about leased land other than hanover would have liked to have the whole thing. I know hanover. You need to get off your little high horse and have some respect for others. And please, don't put words in my mouth.

And.....curtain.

If either of you feel the need to pursue this further, please do it by personal messenger.

[houstonfella]

im going to comment on this once and only once. if you want to flame or continue to troll, more power to you. i just wont participate in it.

first off, you essentially copy and pasted everything i said before.

secondly, if you talked to anyone that was higher up in hanover, they will all tell you they regret not moving forward on dickey site.

thirdly, they are not going to build 2 towers where eatzis is. they are going to build 1 tower and its where the palm reader currently resides.

and finally, hanover did not try to buy page parkes from atlas. tried buying the left over phase of oak lane, in which they passed and zom took it down.

This is where the palm reader comes in.

[houston-development]

let me clear up some misconceptions.

the site that hanover wanted to purchase was the only land available that was for sale (i believe it was 3 acres). anyone can confirm this with ken katz, who brokered the dickey track. since hanover does not develop on leased land, that one piece was the only one they pursued. it has nothing to do with what they wanted, it wasnt available for ANY price, period. the dickey trust is flush with cash (understatement).

i try to show respect to everyone, regardless of their number of posts. every person here started off at 0 however, if someone comes on here and spreads lies, acts like they are talking about when they dont, or calls me out, im going to call a spade a spade.

i try not to portray myself as arrogant but i can see how someone may see me that way. hence the reason i will occasionally even apologize in advance, just in case. if i have come across that way, again, i apologize. ive been wrong before and will admit to it without hesitation.

i speak with the higher ups more than i care admitting to. its my business and what i do, in addition to other "stuff", day to day. i have never lied, misrepresented, nor elaborated on any information i have passed along onto this forum. sometimes i get bad info, it happens.... if i get 2nd hand intel, i will state it (ie from a source i deem reliable) but otherwise, its 1st hand.

honest.

please dont confuse knowledge with arrogance.

stay warm, its chilly out there.

edited to add: that high-rise across san felipe from 4-leaf is hanovers (back and top right). there is a street between it and where eatzis was. notice, one tower only.

Edited December 1, 2006 by houston-development

[bkjones98]

Don't know if anyone posted this yet, but they started installing the foundation for the crane.

[BOI]

Yes, the crane will start going up Monday!!!! They still don't have the construction loan though. Still need a few more sales.

The crane is in the air, sitework is underway, the basement is excavated, shoring is in progress along the North Wall.

A constuction loan commitment has been made and executed. Please refer to the above; which could not happen otherwise.

Yes, there was unsolicited interest in purchasing Paige Parks some time ago in addition to the Dicky site and Oaklane.

Sales- it depends on the exact nature-of the gentlemen's statement- dolars, sf, av. sales price, and quantity. Several purchases are combinations of units which doesn't tell the whole story; i.e a whole floor/ half etc if I correctly understand the meaning of "few". Units which are under purchase agreement are confidential and not disclosed to the general public.

HOAs are similar to 3 other full service buildings in Houston. There are other building charging less less; but presumably you get what you pay for and ultimately the owners will decide what services they require or desire and the costs.

[jdbaker]

HOAs are similar to 3 other full service buildings in Houston. There are other building charging less less; but presumably you get what you pay for and ultimately the owners will decide what services they require or desire and the costs.

You have a great deal more faith in HOA's than I do.