mfastx Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 "unsightly" areas of houston.That sort of terminology always concerns me. I've been to plenty of neighborhoods that were pretty, stale and dead. I can't speak for anyone else, but this is my problem with grand sets of zoning rules: the idea that there is some ideal aesthetic that all cities should aspire to.I'm all for regulations, as long as they're thoughtful, specifically targeted, and individually repealable if they prove damaging. A lot of it is totally subjective. Lack of zoning in Houston isn't a problem for the most part, so therefore there are no zoning laws. Possibly sometime in the future that will change, who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog08 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 We don't need zoning, we just need better urban infrastructure (streets, sidewalks, bike paths, parks, mass transit) and tweaks to parking requirements and setbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 "unsightly" areas of houston.That sort of terminology always concerns me. I've been to plenty of neighborhoods that were pretty, stale and dead. I can't speak for anyone else, but this is my problem with grand sets of zoning rules: the idea that there is some ideal aesthetic that all cities should aspire to.I'm all for regulations, as long as they're thoughtful, specifically targeted, and individually repealable if they prove damaging. What I have noticed is that those who call the loudest for zoning desire a code that sounds suspiciously like master planned neighborhoods. While forcefully defending their supposed urban cred, they subtlely demand the same things that suburban subdivision dwellers want....a master plan. New and shiny. No unwashed people. No poors. I do not trust the zoning fiends any more than I do the "historic preservationists". Their claims hide their true motivations. Control. There is a place for them. Let them go there. It is known as the Master Planned Community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 As well as restricting overhead power lines, sidewalks, heights of buildings, and even parking requirements. Can't all of that stuff be mandated uniformly across the city? Isn't most of it already mandated uniformly? Setbacks, and parking requirements at least. Zoning wouldn't necessarily introduce those things, and has been demonstrated by the city, isn't necessary to introduce those things. Think of all the cool bars, and other random things that gas stations have been turned into over the years, introduce zoning and things like that are likely not possible any more. Think of a lot of the residential downtown, it's in buildings that were originally office space, with zoning you can't change the designation to residential. Think of all the industrial warehouses in the near east end that are being ripped out and replaced with housing. Can't do that with zoning. It's industrial. Zoning doesn't allow for the organic way in which Houston has grown, and without zoning the things you reference can still be implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Where have you seen a premier high rise residential building next to a gasoline station? I cannot think of any... But even if such exists in Houston, there are plenty of similar situations in zoned cities. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=MacGregor,+Houston,+Harris,+Texas&hl=en&ll=29.713588,-95.381638&spn=0.00724,0.009645&sll=37.6,-95.665&sspn=53.177757,79.013672&geocode=FSpUxQEdmM1Q-g&hnear=MacGregor,+Houston,+Harris,+Texas&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=29.713553,-95.381542&panoid=SE5J3pfLufWtPPdhOzIyrw&cbp=12,27.67,,0,-9.21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Forgive me for being slow, but why is a gas station next to a residential building such a bad thing? My guess is that the density is relatively low in the area and that most people have cars which need gas. If it's in a high density area and very few people had cars, I would think that the law of supply and demand would adequately deal with the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=MacGregor,+Houston,+Harris,+Texas&hl=en&ll=29.713588,-95.381638&spn=0.00724,0.009645&sll=37.6,-95.665&sspn=53.177757,79.013672&geocode=FSpUxQEdmM1Q-g&hnear=MacGregor,+Houston,+Harris,+Texas&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=29.713553,-95.381542&panoid=SE5J3pfLufWtPPdhOzIyrw&cbp=12,27.67,,0,-9.21 Is this some sort of urban faux pas requiring citywide zoning? Why is mixed use, with a store on the first floor of that tower considered good, while a store next door to it considered bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I have to say, Starbucks is the one place that's in need of a little regulation (see Shepherd and West Gray). If you regulate one coffee shop, you have to regulate them all uniformly. How many coffee shops (places I can order a coffee and just relax on the porch with a book) are on Westheimer near the corner of Dunlavy? I can think of at least 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=MacGregor,+Houston,+Harris,+Texas&hl=en&ll=29.713588,-95.381638&spn=0.00724,0.009645&sll=37.6,-95.665&sspn=53.177757,79.013672&geocode=FSpUxQEdmM1Q-g&hnear=MacGregor,+Houston,+Harris,+Texas&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=29.713553,-95.381542&panoid=SE5J3pfLufWtPPdhOzIyrw&cbp=12,27.67,,0,-9.21+1! I got gas there the other night after taking the family to Hermann Park. It was a lifesaver since I was running on fumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Is this some sort of urban faux pas requiring citywide zoning? Why is mixed use, with a store on the first floor of that tower considered good, while a store next door to it considered bad?This is because urbanistas want everything to look like NYC instead of just biting the bullet and moving there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 duplicate post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 +1! I got gas there the other night after taking the family to Hermann Park. It was a lifesaver since I was running on fumes. Yeah, some of the bike rides I go on, we will stop there for Gatorade and etc., pretty handy location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I think Starbucks is egregious enough that it needs special rules. Mmmm...Agora. I might have to stop there today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Love Agora for ambiance, but they need to step up their game a little with the quality of their coffee. A lot of places have passed them from that aspect. We may need a coffee thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 We may need a coffee thread...I agree.http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/28011-favorite-coffee-houses/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfastx Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 We don't need zoning, we just need better urban infrastructure (streets, sidewalks, bike paths, parks, mass transit) and tweaks to parking requirements and setbacks. Completely agree with this. Zoning can be a tool to get that done, but you can do it without either. Can't all of that stuff be mandated uniformly across the city? Isn't most of it already mandated uniformly? Setbacks, and parking requirements at least. Zoning wouldn't necessarily introduce those things, and has been demonstrated by the city, isn't necessary to introduce those things. Think of all the cool bars, and other random things that gas stations have been turned into over the years, introduce zoning and things like that are likely not possible any more. Think of a lot of the residential downtown, it's in buildings that were originally office space, with zoning you can't change the designation to residential. Think of all the industrial warehouses in the near east end that are being ripped out and replaced with housing. Can't do that with zoning. It's industrial. Zoning doesn't allow for the organic way in which Houston has grown, and without zoning the things you reference can still be implemented. Those conversions happen in other cities too, and they all have zoning. So I'm not sure how that would be possible if what you're saying is true. I'd need to look into zoning laws in other cities, I'm sure they are more lax than one would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 https://maps.google.com/maps?q=MacGregor,+Houston,+Harris,+Texas&hl=en&ll=29.713588,-95.381638&spn=0.00724,0.009645&sll=37.6,-95.665&sspn=53.177757,79.013672&geocode=FSpUxQEdmM1Q-g&hnear=MacGregor,+Houston,+Harris,+Texas&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=29.713553,-95.381542&panoid=SE5J3pfLufWtPPdhOzIyrw&cbp=12,27.67,,0,-9.21 It appears we have a winner. Now that we have found a "premier residential high rise next a gasoline station", two questions: 1) Can the zoning enthusiasts confidently tell us that no such juxtaposition occurs in zoned cities? 2) As others have asked above, why is this juxtaposition a bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Completely agree with this. Zoning can be a tool to get that done, but you can do it without either. Those conversions happen in other cities too, and they all have zoning. So I'm not sure how that would be possible if what you're saying is true. I'd need to look into zoning laws in other cities, I'm sure they are more lax than one would think.I believe that happens elsewhere via re-zoning requests. Public hearings, payoffs, etc, depending on the players involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Here is another example of "awkward" juxtapositioning like the ones complained about earlier in the thread. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=dallas,+TX&hl=en&ll=32.794387,-96.802028&spn=0.003444,0.004823&sll=29.742758,-95.460992&sspn=0.001792,0.002411&t=h&hnear=Dallas,+Texas&z=18&layer=c&cbll=32.794387,-96.802028&panoid=nk4xDcjTds1hhsA8JtiXTA&cbp=12,230.28,,0,-13.43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarface Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Think of all the cool bars, and other random things that gas stations have been turned into over the years, introduce zoning and things like that are likely not possible any more. Think of a lot of the residential downtown, it's in buildings that were originally office space, with zoning you can't change the designation to residential. Think of all the industrial warehouses in the near east end that are being ripped out and replaced with housing. Can't do that with zoning. It's industrial. Zoning doesn't allow for the organic way in which Houston has grown, and without zoning the things you reference can still be implemented. I was not aware of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Here is another example of "awkward" juxtapositioning like the ones complained about earlier in the thread. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=dallas,+TX&hl=en&ll=32.794387,-96.802028&spn=0.003444,0.004823&sll=29.742758,-95.460992&sspn=0.001792,0.002411&t=h&hnear=Dallas,+Texas&z=18&layer=c&cbll=32.794387,-96.802028&panoid=nk4xDcjTds1hhsA8JtiXTA&cbp=12,230.28,,0,-13.43 WHOA! Next door to the Hotel Za Za? This cannot be allowed to happen. This would never happen in a city with zoning! BTW, Shell is the evil enemy of good urban planning, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Those conversions happen in other cities too, and they all have zoning. So I'm not sure how that would be possible if what you're saying is true. I'd need to look into zoning laws in other cities, I'm sure they are more lax than one would think. I imagine you're right and that nothing is impossible with a variance, but it would undoubtedly be more difficult. Rather than someone finding a long shut down gas station and turning it into an art gallery, or burger joint, the probability goes way up that it would either continue to sit fallow, or be razzed to put in a strip mall by some developer who is familiar with going through the red tape. Do you like Empire Cafe? With zoning it probably never would have been what it is. There's thousands (and that's being conservative) of places that under current rules have been easily transformed. Should zoning be implemented, yes, we would still see some of it, but it would not happen as often, and when it did happen it would be done by people that have the money to do it, or already know very well how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfastx Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 It appears we have a winner. Now that we have found a "premier residential high rise next a gasoline station", two questions: 1) Can the zoning enthusiasts confidently tell us that no such juxtaposition occurs in zoned cities? 2) As others have asked above, why is this juxtaposition a bad thing? First of all, I have nothing against gas stations next to highrises, lol. It was just an example of something I find awkward in a major metropolitan city, nothing more. There are other examples too. And it's not a bad thing at all, but it's just not something you would see in, say Boston (the city where I currently live). And I'm sure that such juxtaposition happens in zoned cities, just not as much. Personally, I like the look and feel of a city that has decent zoning laws than one that doesn't. Just a personal opinion guys, and a minor niggle that I have on an otherwise great city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trae Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 We don't need zoning, we just need better urban infrastructure (streets, sidewalks, bike paths, parks, mass transit) and tweaks to parking requirements and setbacks.Yeah this is all that matters. Houston is severely lacking in sidewalks, but that is getting better. Same thing with parks and the city landscaping. We don't need zoning. Getting along just fine imo. I much prefer the randomness in the loop over the planned sterile look of uptown Dallas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Personally, I like the look and feel of a city that has decent zoning laws than one that doesn't. Just a personal opinion guys, and a minor niggle that I have on an otherwise great city. Are you saying that you like the Shell station next to the Hotel Za Za better than the Shell station next to the condo tower? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 First of all, I have nothing against gas stations next to highrises, lol. It was just an example of something I find awkward in a major metropolitan city, nothing more. There are other examples too. And it's not a bad thing at all, but it's just not something you would see in, say Boston (the city where I currently live). And I'm sure that such juxtaposition happens in zoned cities, just not as much. Personally, I like the look and feel of a city that has decent zoning laws than one that doesn't. Just a personal opinion guys, and a minor niggle that I have on an otherwise great city. Understood. But given that Houston is more similar to Dallas and other essentially post-war zoned cities (and they to it) than any of them are to older cities (e.g., Boston, NYC, Chicago) tells us the differences probably have less to do with zoning or the lack thereof than with other factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfastx Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Are you saying that you like the Shell station next to the Hotel Za Za better than the Shell station next to the condo tower? Yes, Red, that is exactly what I am saying. We've already established that oddities can happen in cities with zoning too. Zoning is just one of many things that cities apply to help plan a little better. We all know you are vehemently opposed to zoning. We'll have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 http://blog.chron.com/thetexican/2013/05/should-houston-be-kept-a-secret/?cmpid=hpfsln That link is to an article on the front of the Chronicle website suggesting that Houston is already so successful at what we do that we risk out-of-towners coming here and ruining it. Back in the late 70s during our Boomtown days, we had a saying..."I don't care how you used to do it back home." The point was, then and now, that Houston is doing better than almost every other city. Perhaps some of them should ask US for tips on how we do things. This thread should have ended after post #32. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
editor Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Don't argue about arguing. Don't argue about each other. If you can't discuss this in a civil manner and stay on topic, the thread will be closed and some posters will have their posting privileges suspended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Back in the late 70s during our Boomtown days, we had a saying..."I don't care how you used to do it back home." That should be both the city's motto and also the answer to the zoning question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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