What's Left Of The Fourth Ward Near Taft St. & W. Grey St.

[TonyM]

So no, you don't have any hard evidence that they don't have jobs, just that you see people during the day. You don't know if they work nights, if they're retired, or whatever? For the record, welfare is pretty hard for men without children to get, so I'm not sure what you think they're living on.

Judging by the 10 or so kids constantly around, and the handful of women, I certainly assume they only way they sustain themselves is welfare. Some of the houses these people live in should be condemned they're in such poor shape, derelict is a compliment.

But, they've got half decent cars and satellite dishes on the roof . . . and they're there every time I, you, or anyone else drives by.

Sometimes the observed evidence does exist to justify the assumption, kylejack.

[kylejack]

But, they've got half decent cars and satellite dishes on the roof . . . and they're there every time I, you, or anyone else drives by.

Sometimes the observed evidence does exist to justify the assumption, kylejack.

Perhaps they're gainfully employed, and don't bother checking in with you to let them know that they're headed off to work their night shift.

[TonyM]

Perhaps they're gainfully employed, and don't bother checking in with you to let them know that they're headed off to work their night shift.

Tell ya what, you move into the neighborhood and make the observations I do on a daily basis and we'll talk again sometime, haha.

Must be nice to be blissfully ignorant . . .

[kylejack]

I'm one of those "downtowner, young professional" types referred to by constlaw.

[TGM]

No need for a source when you drive through the area daily. Sometimes several times a day and see the same ol' people doing the exact same nothing all the time.

Maybe they're actively preserving history.

[TGM]

For the record, welfare is pretty hard for men without children to get, so I'm not sure what you think they're living on.

Probably change, and whatever remains of hope.

I'm going to call BS on your statement that it's hard for single men to get welfare. I really don't see today's government turning anyone down for any sort of dependance, um,err, assistance. If a person can some how eff-up getting on the government gravy train then there is little hope for them. For heavens sake, we fund groups like Acorn to insure everyone gets pie.

Edited July 11, 2012 by TGM

[RedScare]

Tell ya what, you move into the neighborhood and make the observations I do on a daily basis and we'll talk again sometime, haha.

Must be nice to be blissfully ignorant . . .

Must be nice to be blissfully narcissistic.

Am I correct in reading your posts that you are complaining about people relaxing on their front porch? Since we are making wildassed assumptions, let me assume that they were in the neighborhood first. What gives you the right to run them off, or to even suggest that they should be run off? Simply because you spent more money on your home? Did you not realize that there were colored people in the 4th Ward before you got there? You sound awfully jealous of those who don't have to work as hard as you do. Maybe if you weren't such a slave to consumer goods, you'd be able to relax on your porch a bit, too.

My initial reaction was that at least you are not as bad as my Heights neighbors who change the law to tell me what I could do with my house. But now I am thinking I shouldn't give you any ideas.

Just a head's up. I'm working from home tomorrow. Please don't spread any rumors that I am a deadbeat who gets welfare checks.

[kylejack]

I'm going to call BS on your statement that it's hard for single men to get welfare. I really don't see today's government turning anyone down for any sort of dependance, um,err, assistance. If a person can some how eff-up getting on the government gravy train then there is little hope for them. For heavens sake, we fund groups like Acorn to insure everyone gets pie.

You are? I will recommend reading up on Clinton's welfare-to-work reforms.

[RedScare]

Probably change, and whatever remains of hope.

I'm going to call BS on your statement that it's hard for single men to get welfare. I really don't see today's government turning anyone down for any sort of dependance, um,err, assistance. If a person can some how eff-up getting on the government gravy train then there is little hope for them. For heavens sake, we fund groups like Acorn to insure everyone gets pie.

Well, let's see your proof, then. Or, would you rather grumble on AM radio talk shows about things that are untrue? Which program is for single childless men, cuz I'm going to sign up and sit on my porch once I get it. I've worked hard enough for this life.

[infinite_jim]

Churches are probably be the only thing that could have been saved from Freedmen's Town.

Antioch Baptist is the only bldg left from the portion of the nab that was sliced off into downtown; the same will probably be true of the church park.

Edited July 11, 2012 by infinite_jim

[TGM]

Well, let's see your proof, then. Or, would you rather grumble on AM radio talk shows about things that are untrue? Which program is for single childless men, cuz I'm going to sign up and sit on my porch once I get it. I've worked hard enough for this life.

Red, I don't really get a chance to listen to radio during the work day. Could you provide a re-cap of today's grumblings. And since it sounds like you've worked hard for your money, how about helping me out with a loan. Four out of five of the window units the city gave me are on the fritz!

[HTX]

So no, you don't have any hard evidence that they don't have jobs, just that you see people during the day. You don't know if they work nights, if they're retired, or whatever? For the record, welfare is pretty hard for men without children to get, so I'm not sure what you think they're living on.

Sorry but that is just being naive. It may be more difficult for a man without children to qualify but not for the momma's of those children. Do you really not realize that they demand their 'cut' of that Lonestar Card?

[RedScare]

Red, I don't really get a chance to listen to radio during the work day. Could you provide a re-cap of today's grumblings. And since it sounds like you've worked hard for your money, how about helping me out with a loan. Four out of five of the window units the city gave me are on the fritz!

The true sign of a man who has lost a debate is when he attempts to change the subject. When you prove your previous post I'll join in on your jokes. Until then, I will lump you in with Limbaugh's listeners.

[constlaw]

Am I liberal? I don't think I've expressed any political opinions in this thread, and you might be surprised at my political alignment. As I said earlier in the thread, I've walked down that exact stretch of road later than 11:25 to get to bars such as Front Porch Pub, so yes, I would walk there.

I was assuming, which I thought was nicer than assuming that you are a dumb*ss.

[TGM]

The true sign of a man who has lost a debate is when he attempts to change the subject. When you prove your previous post I'll join in on your jokes.

We both know that's a suckers choice as you'll continue to move the goal posts with each example I cite and I'll never get to hear your jokes. Let's just say people I thought I knew have surprised me in their faking of of PTSDs, work-place injuries, actual job search efforts, and unreported sources of income that will allow them to qualify for "assistance".

Have you not noticed increased amounts of advertisements informing people of various benefits? They want to give away more money.

Until then, I will lump you in with Limbaugh's listeners.

So?

[RedScare]

No moving posts. Just waiting for you to tell us what programs are available to single childless males. Not a tough task. The fact that you cannot or will not name any seems to validate kylejack and I's point.

[woolie]

Wow, these guys are pretty butthurt about their elected officials representing the interests of their constituents. It must make you mad that they keep getting re-elected. Maybe you should move to Katy, where you won't be offended by any non-white people enjoying their porches during the day.

[woolie]

The best part is that they're not even complaining about any specific behavior that infringes on their property rights, or being harassed in the street, etc. They're just upset that they imagine someone is getting some kind of government assistance. Clearly, the posters have never taken any government assistance. Not student loans or grants, no public funding for universities, no mortgage interest deduction, nothing. And certainly without any help from parents or relatives. Totally by their own thousand dollarsing bootstraps.

[KinkaidAlum]

I love that it seems the "we're not racists" but all the blacks are unemployed and ruining our neighborhood folks generally agree that facts aren't needed when forming an opinion.

RedScare just blew the lid off of TonyM's claims but that didn't deter him from keepin' on keepin' on!

Another links to an article on a pro developer's website that I had to stop reading once I got to the part about Midtown being a one time run down warehouse neighborhood located to the EAST of the Third Ward. Seriously? Huh? Was it too hard to google a map before printing that garbage?

Also, history lesson for you young guns in the Fourth Ward, the Allen Parkway Village originally began as a place for veterans to move in to after the war. WHITE veterans. It was 100% off limits to blacks. Over the years, it did indeed transform into a public housing complex, but even then it was NEVER close to being 100% black. In fact, during the last few years after most of the others had moved on, many of the remaining families were actually Vietnamese.

Several historians have argued that placing an all white veterans housing project on the outskirts of Houston's thriving black community (Freedman Town)was just another in a long line of deliberate actions to cut through the heart of the black community and claim the very valuable land for white land brokers who wanted to expand their downtown footprint (Allen Center).

Allen Parkway, Allen Parkway Village, the Pierce Elevated, and the very purposeful neglect the city showed to that area over the years are what caused that community to rot. Houston lost a ton of history when the Pierce was built. It would blow your mind to see what was torn down, cut off, and killed off. What's truly amazing is that it took as long as it did for the neighborhood to completely disappear largely due to the oil bust in the 1980s that killed almost all large scale development in the city for nearly two decades.

edit to add-

I should have waited to respond after I had read the comments on the 2nd page of the thread. Hopefully this country will revert back to a point where knowledge and intellectualism are respected more than just shouting mistruths louder than the opposition.

Red, Kyle and others have asked a very simple question... can you provide a link to the program that allows single men to get welfare? You can't because there isn't one. Instead of admitting that you were wrong (or, rather, that you are a liar) you then change the conversation to talk about Acorn and baby daddy's.

You do realize that the Acorn video was a shameless smear job undertaken by political wannabes, right? You do realize that those two assclowns that dressed up as a hooker and pimp edited those videos beyond recognition and have been discredited by every reputable news organization and that even Fox had to recant (although you'd hardly have known it) the story?

And, as for baby Daddy's, you really should just shut the hell up. You do realize that we live in Texas, right? You do realize that programs like WIC, food stamps, and yes, even welfare, have been slashed since Clinton at the federal level and even more by our run of Republican governors in Texas, right?

And, funny that your complaint is that you see black men on their porches during the day and that that makes you upset because you work hard for the money. Well then, what the hell were you doing there during work hours? As has been pointed out, you have NO IDEA of whether or not any of those men work night shifts, are disabled, are returning home from a tour of duty, or are working from home. You just assume. That's intellectually lazy.

Edited July 12, 2012 by KinkaidAlum

[woolie]

I bought a book last week, "The Great Inversion and the Future of the American City" that has a chapter on Houston that is a slightly updated version of that article (which is from 2006).

But yeah, these guys are being willfully ignorant of Houston's history. "Queen Sheila" (a racist trope if there ever was one.) I wonder if a guy named "Tony" had ancestors piled into a Lower East Side tenement building -- which 100 years later is some very expensive housing. Somewhat ironic.

[woolie]

These may help clarify your mind.

Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/applicant_recipients/eligibility.htm

Temporary Assistance for Needy Families

http://www.dphhs.mt.gov/hcsd/tanf/tanfeligibility.shtml

Women, Infants, Children

http://www.fns.usda.gov/wic/howtoapply/eligibilityrequirements.htm

Housing Choice Vouchers

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/public_indian_housing/programs/hcv/about/fact_sheet

Edited July 12, 2012 by woolie

[TGM]

I love that it seems the "we're not racists" but all the blacks are unemployed and ruining our neighborhood folks generally agree that facts aren't needed when forming an opinion.

RedScare just blew the lid off of TonyM's claims but that didn't deter him from keepin' on keepin' on!

Another links to an article on a pro developer's website that I had to stop reading once I got to the part about Midtown being a one time run down warehouse neighborhood located to the EAST of the Third Ward. Seriously? Huh? Was it too hard to google a map before printing that garbage?

Also, history lesson for you young guns in the Fourth Ward, the Allen Parkway Village originally began as a place for veterans to move in to after the war. WHITE veterans. It was 100% off limits to blacks. Over the years, it did indeed transform into a public housing complex, but even then it was NEVER close to being 100% black. In fact, during the last few years after most of the others had moved on, many of the remaining families were actually Vietnamese.

Several historians have argued that placing an all white veterans housing project on the outskirts of Houston's thriving black community (Freedman Town)was just another in a long line of deliberate actions to cut through the heart of the black community and claim the very valuable land for white land brokers who wanted to expand their downtown footprint (Allen Center).

Allen Parkway, Allen Parkway Village, the Pierce Elevated, and the very purposeful neglect the city showed to that area over the years are what caused that community to rot. Houston lost a ton of history when the Pierce was built. It would blow your mind to see what was torn down, cut off, and killed off. What's truly amazing is that it took as long as it did for the neighborhood to completely disappear largely due to the oil bust in the 1980s that killed almost all large scale development in the city for nearly two decades.

edit to add-

I should have waited to respond after I had read the comments on the 2nd page of the thread. Hopefully this country will revert back to a point where knowledge and intellectualism are respected more than just shouting mistruths louder than the opposition.

Red, Kyle and others have asked a very simple question... can you provide a link to the program that allows single men to get welfare? You can't because there isn't one. Instead of admitting that you were wrong (or, rather, that you are a liar) you then change the conversation to talk about Acorn and baby daddy's.

You do realize that the Acorn video was a shameless smear job undertaken by political wannabes, right? You do realize that those two assclowns that dressed up as a hooker and pimp edited those videos beyond recognition and have been discredited by every reputable news organization and that even Fox had to recant (although you'd hardly have known it) the story?

And, as for baby Daddy's, you really should just shut the hell up. You do realize that we live in Texas, right? You do realize that programs like WIC, food stamps, and yes, even welfare, have been slashed since Clinton at the federal level and even more by our run of Republican governors in Texas, right?

And, funny that your complaint is that you see black men on their porches during the day and that that makes you upset because you work hard for the money. Well then, what the hell were you doing there during work hours? As has been pointed out, you have NO IDEA of whether or not any of those men work night shifts, are disabled, are returning home from a tour of duty, or are working from home. You just assume. That's intellectually lazy.

Wow, I think you've made the case that liberalism truly is a mental disorder.

[TGM]

No moving posts. Just waiting for you to tell us what programs are available to single childless males. Not a tough task. The fact that you cannot or will not name any seems to validate kylejack and I's point.

No, the burden is on Kyle to prove the difficulty of obtaining welfare as a single, childless male as he stated that this was in fact for the record.

For the record, welfare is pretty hard for men without children to get, so I'm not sure what you think they're living on.

[TonyM]

Must be nice to be blissfully narcissistic.

Am I correct in reading your posts that you are complaining about people relaxing on their front porch? Since we are making wildassed assumptions, let me assume that they were in the neighborhood first. What gives you the right to run them off, or to even suggest that they should be run off? Simply because you spent more money on your home? Did you not realize that there were colored people in the 4th Ward before you got there? You sound awfully jealous of those who don't have to work as hard as you do. Maybe if you weren't such a slave to consumer goods, you'd be able to relax on your porch a bit, too.

My initial reaction was that at least you are not as bad as my Heights neighbors who change the law to tell me what I could do with my house. But now I am thinking I shouldn't give you any ideas.

No, you are not correct. I associate that behavior (and it's constant) with not having a job which explains the derelict condition of their housing. I never made claims as to their race, there are folks of any and every color in the neighborhood that I take issue with on the condition of their homes.

People can do what they want with their homes, sure. But propping up relics that should have long been torn down or still living in homes that are an eyesore (and probably dangerous) is just silly, and doing it with taxpayer money bothers me. Thankfully the market is coming around and starting to improve what is, thanks to it's location and proximity to downtown, some very valuable real estate. However, there are plenty of folks (like Garnet Coleman) who are trying to keep the neighborhood from improving. I inquired about purchasing an empty lot in the 4th ward and the owner told me he would not sell to anyone white. His words, not mine. Which is within his right, sure. But I don't think with holding development is in the best interest of the neighborhood at this point. Just my opinion.

Not being narcissistic or anything, just having a discussion about my opinion on the 4th ward. Where it is now and where it's going. Guess this discussion got off track a bit.

Wow, these guys are pretty butthurt about their elected officials representing the interests of their constituents. It must make you mad that they keep getting re-elected. Maybe you should move to Katy, where you won't be offended by any non-white people enjoying their porches during the day.

What elected official? Sheila Jackson Lee? She hasn't done much for her "constituents" in the 4th ward, not by a long shot. Again, I never mentioned any race so I don't know where that's coming from.

I love that it seems the "we're not racists" but all the blacks are unemployed and ruining our neighborhood folks generally agree that facts aren't needed when forming an opinion.

RedScare just blew the lid off of TonyM's claims but that didn't deter him from keepin' on keepin' on!

Again, it isn't just blacks, it's quite a few people in the neighborhood. I never brought up race, you did.

And Red didn't blow the lid off any claims. I was stating my observations and assumptions and until somebody provides me proof that the people I see panhandling and generally doing much of nothing all day in the 4th ward have some sort of non-government provided income, I will hold my assumption. I realize it offends some people to assume the worst about people based only on observation, but sometimes it fits. I base my assumptions on what I personally see and observe, that's all I can do. I didn't single out anyone of particular race because it isn't a particular race, but you can believe what you'd like to believe and I'll believe what I see.

I bought a book last week, "The Great Inversion and the Future of the American City" that has a chapter on Houston that is a slightly updated version of that article (which is from 2006).

But yeah, these guys are being willfully ignorant of Houston's history. "Queen Sheila" (a racist trope if there ever was one.) I wonder if a guy named "Tony" had ancestors piled into a Lower East Side tenement building -- which 100 years later is some very expensive housing. Somewhat ironic.

"Queen Sheila" is hardly a racist trope, she's called that in many outlets. And given her complete ineptness as a Congressional Rep I don't know how anyone can defend her in anyway. She's hardly legislated anything in her nearly two decades in Washington and certainly hasn't done much in the interest of anyone but herself.

As for ancestry, I'm not entirely sure what you're going for there.

Edited July 12, 2012 by TonyM

[TonyM]

Heh. Quitter. Sure hope you aren't a lawyer. No one likes a lawyer who gives up when the facts are against him...especially your client.

Or any profession, haha.

[RedScare]

No, you are not correct. I associate that behavior (and it's constant) with not having a job which explains the derelict condition of their housing. I never made claims as to their race, there are folks of any and every color in the neighborhood that I take issue with on the condition of their homes.

...

Not being narcissistic or anything, just having a discussion about my opinion on the 4th ward. Where it is now and where it's going. Guess this discussion got off track a bit.

Yes, it did get off track, generally about the time that posters began deriding people for sitting on their porches. Getting back on track, I agree that propping up gutted church walls with government funds IS a waste of money. Unfortunately, we see these attempts at placating constituents from time to time. Of course, it happens with many other groups as well. In Congress, I believe they are called earmarks.

As for the neighborhood itself, this is the friction that gentrification causes. I certainly understand your point of view regarding derelict housing limiting growth of home values. However, I can very much see the other residents' point of view as well. From their perspective, they "were doing just fine in their unpainted houses until these uppity new homeowners built those townhomes smashed up against each other, and increasing traffic. NOW, those same newcomers are trying to push us out completely!"

I recognize that gentrification can be slower than you would like, especially when recessions hit. I do not begrudge your wish to see the neighborhood fully gentrify, as it will increase your home value, and bring more useful businesses to the area. I really only jumped into this thread when the tone moved toward complaining about how the residents enjoyed their properties. Property rights cuts both ways. The right to build townhomes in supposed historic neighborhoods coexists with the right to sit on one's porch all day or not paint the house, whether willfully or due to poverty. It seems hypocritical to only support one aspect of property rights. That is what drew my narcissism reference.

I've posted before that I worked summers for a construction company in the 4th Ward over 30 years ago. I dreaded driving through there at night. There was nothing historic about it then, and nothing now. The history of the 4th Ward is long gone. I do not mind its gentrification at all. But, I am opposed to running the original residents out. I do not mind letting market forces work. I do mind taking away one's right to enjoy their property.

[TonyM]

Yes, it did get off track, generally about the time that posters began deriding people for sitting on their porches. Getting back on track, I agree that propping up gutted church walls with government funds IS a waste of money. Unfortunately, we see these attempts at placating constituents from time to time. Of course, it happens with many other groups as well. In Congress, I believe they are called earmarks.

As for the neighborhood itself, this is the friction that gentrification causes. I certainly understand your point of view regarding derelict housing limiting growth of home values. However, I can very much see the other residents' point of view as well. From their perspective, they "were doing just fine in their unpainted houses until these uppity new homeowners built those townhomes smashed up against each other, and increasing traffic. NOW, those same newcomers are trying to push us out completely!"

I recognize that gentrification can be slower than you would like, especially when recessions hit. I do not begrudge your wish to see the neighborhood fully gentrify, as it will increase your home value, and bring more useful businesses to the area. I really only jumped into this thread when the tone moved toward complaining about how the residents enjoyed their properties. Property rights cuts both ways. The right to build townhomes in supposed historic neighborhoods coexists with the right to sit on one's porch all day or not paint the house, whether willfully or due to poverty. It seems hypocritical to only support one aspect of property rights. That is what drew my narcissism reference.

I've posted before that I worked summers for a construction company in the 4th Ward over 30 years ago. I dreaded driving through there at night. There was nothing historic about it then, and nothing now. The history of the 4th Ward is long gone. I do not mind its gentrification at all. But, I am opposed to running the original residents out. I do not mind letting market forces work. I do mind taking away one's right to enjoy their property.

Point taken and I don't have any disagreement with anything you posted there. Well said.

And I actually wouldn't mind the whole propped up church thing if we could horse trade for street improvements! They're getting really bad, really really bad. And even worse now that Camden is moving some fairly heavy loads over them. It's a shame too because the bricks on Andrews, Robin, etc. are historic (produced and laid by freed slaves). However, it's getting so bad now that some bricks are being damaged. There's a reluctance to tear them up due to calls for preservation, but I say that in order to truly preserve them before they're worn beyond preservable condition is imperative. I think taking all the bricks up and using them in crosswalks or intersection would be a really neat way to pay homage to the history while satisfying the need for improved streets.

[TGM]

Wow, these guys are pretty butthurt about their elected officials representing the interests of their constituents. It must make you mad that they keep getting re-elected. Maybe you should move to Katy, where you won't be offended by any non-white people enjoying their porches during the day.

No butthurt here. I quite enjoy the token bread and circuses that these career politicians offer their constituents in place of authenticity. And when someone special like the Yale-educated Shelia Jackson Lee comes around you stand back in awe at how cheap and easy it is to purchase a voters allegiance.

I want Shelia to stay because while anyone else can do the same inept job, no one can do it with the panache and spectacle that is Shelia Jackson Lee. Houston will be a dull place without her.

[TGM]

It's a shame too because the bricks on Andrews, Robin, etc. are historic (produced and laid by freed slaves). However, it's getting so bad now that some bricks are being damaged. There's a reluctance to tear them up due to calls for preservation, but I say that in order to truly preserve them before they're worn beyond preservable condition is imperative. I think taking all the bricks up and using them in crosswalks or intersection would be a really neat way to pay homage to the history while satisfying the need for improved streets.

100% agree. The only way to preserve is through action not inaction. I remember 5 or more years ago the very topic of the streets was on the evening news. I had (falsely) assumed that these streets had been restored and protected, but apparently that is not the case. This is pathetic. The church is private property, the streets public. Taxpayer monies should be spent on revitalizing a historic public street, rather than a private building. While both are prime examples of what happens when you defer maintainence, the onus is on the city for letting the brick streets fall into this state of disrepair. In essence, local government is the proverbial slumlord of the streets.

[TonyM]

100% agree. The only way to preserve is through action not inaction. I remember 5 or more years ago the very topic of the streets was on the evening news. I had (falsely) assumed that these streets had been restored and protected, but apparently that is not the case. This is pathetic. The church is private property, the streets public. Taxpayer monies should be spent on revitalizing a historic public street, rather than a private building. While both are prime examples of what happens when you defer maintainence, the onus is on the city for letting the brick streets fall into this state of disrepair. In essence, local government is the proverbial slumlord of the streets.

Agreed, action is needed. A proper roadbed would enable the bricks to live on, at present, things are crumbling, the bricks are shifting, it's tearing up vehicles, not good.

The church is city property now, per HCAD it's owned by the City of Houston. To me the onus isn't on the city, it's on the 4th ward TIRZ board of directors. It's their job to reinvest the incremental tax revenues in neighborhood improvements. Instead, we've got I-beams blocking Andrews St. I like the new library, it's very nice looking, we just need some better streets so people can get to it, haha.