Higher Density does not equal less driving

[lockmat]

Take the feather out greenies ;p hehe

Pushing high density living may seem like a good way to get people out of their cars—saving them money, curbing emissions, and reducing oil dependence—but densification may not be a silver bullet, according to one recent study.

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The inflexibility of our automobile usage boils down to a few factors, with work being the most important. The more workers in a household, the more drivers, and the more drivers, the more miles. A one-driver household, as noted above, tallies 10,100 miles per year; a two-driver household racks up 18,800 miles; three drivers, 33,900; four drivers, 47,700.¹ We are, by and large, beholden to our cars because we are beholden to our jobs. After that, driving increases as a result of income (richer people drive more), number of children (more and larger cars), education (higher education means more cars), and people’s life stage (households with older children have more cars.

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One of the main arguments behind higher density living is that it will reduce our carbon footprint. While density may be a better long term solution, right now the most expeditious approach is to increase fuel economy.

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It would be great if everyone had access to mass transit, but for many, mass transit isn’t just a poor option, it isn’t an option at all. Those who do travel by bus or train today may only be a job change away from having to drive. Modern life demands mobility, and few things are better at providing that than the automobile.

http://persquaremile...ot-be-to-blame/

[samagon]

so, in order for density to work, we need to stop driving as much? um, no duh, comes to mind.

[TheNiche]

so, in order for density to work, we need to stop driving as much? um, no duh, comes to mind.

straw man

[samagon]

I guess, but whether someone lives in high or low density, if their goal is to reduce consumption, they will reduce consumption. It's the first "R" of the three "Rs" of conservation. Reduce.

[Nate99]

so, in order for density to work, we need to stop having to go anywhere? um, no duh, comes to mind.

[Specwriter]

so, in order for density to work, we need to stop having to go anywhere? um, no duh, comes to mind.

Sort of, Nate. I believe the best result of increased density, leaving aside the work place/home relationship, would be the opportunity to walk to the grocery store, dry cleaners, restaurant, etc. instead of drive there. The grocery store near my house is literally a few minutes away by car. To walk however, I would have to negotiate about a mile of winding streets in my subdivision then another half mile of major thoroughfare, albeit with a nice sidewalk, but no trees for shade. If I could walk three of four blocks, or even a few more, to the local store I wouldn't mind doing that twice as often as I drive to the store now. Also, once I get home, I am very reluctant to get back in the car and run some minor errand. I think I would be much more likely to come home, change into some more comfortable shoes, and walk around my neighborhood to get what I need.

When gasoline prices went so crazy in 2008 I decided I could justify renting an apartment near my office and avoid my daily 80-mile round-trip commute. The savings in fuel costs did not pay my rent entirely of course but the extra two hours I added to my day (every day) made the cost a bargain. Further, I got more exercise because I had more time to work out (the apartment had a fitness room) and I walked from place to place in the evenings. Granted I lived in the sort of neighborhood that was more conducive to walking but that too seems to follow along with increased density.

Alas, I let my apartment go when the lease expired this last December. The continuing poor economy was the reason. One, I thought it would be prudent to save the cash and two, it just wasn't seemly to be maintaining two residences when some of my colleages have been out of work for year or longer. That said, I certainly plan to return to "in-town living" as soon as the climate seems right.

[totheskies]

Agreed this is COMPLETELY skewed logic. Higher density would equate to less driving if the neighborhood is sufficiently populated with retail to where to you don't need to drive as much. I recently moved from Eastwood to Montrose. Now I live within 3 mins walk from Kroger, several very nice restaurants, the dry cleaners, music stores, radio shack, you name it. It's literally MORE of a hassle to get in the car and rangle around for parking than it is to just walk to these areas. The only life activity I'm further away from now is my work, but the buses on this side of town are far more reliable than in Eastwood, so I've stopped taking the car to work entirely as well.

So far my money savings in gas have been huge... like $50 less last month than the month before. Also extending the life of my vehicle by the savings of wear and tear, along with more exercise for me.

This article is silly.

[samagon]

another agreed.

while as totheskies points out, eastwood (and east end in general) isn't the most walkable place, there are convenience stores pretty much everywhere within walking distance. If I lived in eastwood proper, the kombat kroger would be walkable (as it is, it is bicyclable), there aren't any music stores in the area though, and I'm still scared to go to the kombat kroger, mostly because I have no idea how big the rats are that hide behind the cereal boxes.

[Nate99]

Are there music stores anywhere anymore?

[kylejack]

As a one member household that racks up 0 miles of driving per year, I heartily disagree.

[LTAWACS]

another agreed.

while as totheskies points out, eastwood (and east end in general) isn't the most walkable place, there are convenience stores pretty much everywhere within walking distance. If I lived in eastwood proper, the kombat kroger would be walkable (as it is, it is bicyclable), there aren't any music stores in the area though, and I'm still scared to go to the kombat kroger, mostly because I have no idea how big the rats are that hide behind the cereal boxes.

I went there the other day to get a flyer and kroger card... and everyone just stared at me...

[ricco67]

I went there the other day to get a flyer and kroger card... and everyone just stared at me...

That's pretty much our reaction when we see you post on here.

[VicMan]

another agreed.

while as totheskies points out, eastwood (and east end in general) isn't the most walkable place, there are convenience stores pretty much everywhere within walking distance. If I lived in eastwood proper, the kombat kroger would be walkable (as it is, it is bicyclable), there aren't any music stores in the area though, and I'm still scared to go to the kombat kroger, mostly because I have no idea how big the rats are that hide behind the cereal boxes.

I've been to Battle Kroger. It's not bad.

A relative who lived in Houston shopped there all the time. He walked from his house.

[lockmat]

An interesting article:

It's true - Houston doesn't have the best commute, but new data shows that a majority of Houstonians could make it to work in 30 minutes or less.

...

The New York City area had America’s longest commutes with 31.4 percent of its workers taking 45 minutes or more to make their way from home to work. In Houston, just 18.8 percent have a commute that long, according to the data.

Other metros with substantial percentages of long-distance commuters are Washington (29.5 percent in the 45-plus club), Poughkeepsie, N.Y. (26.5 percent), and Chicago (24.9 percent).

http://www.bizjourna...rk.html?ana=twt

Takes me about 30 mins to get to work.

Maybe it's better that we're so spread out and have multiple employment centers?

[The Pragmatist]

I've been to Battle Kroger. It's not bad.

A relative who lived in Houston shopped there all the time. He walked from his house.

It definitely beats the crappy selection and "wall-o-40's" at the Scott Street HEB.

[TheNiche]

another agreed.

while as totheskies points out, eastwood (and east end in general) isn't the most walkable place, there are convenience stores pretty much everywhere within walking distance. If I lived in eastwood proper, the kombat kroger would be walkable (as it is, it is bicyclable), there aren't any music stores in the area though, and I'm still scared to go to the kombat kroger, mostly because I have no idea how big the rats are that hide behind the cereal boxes.

Are you kidding me? The East End is so walkable that people actually do so...and not just because walking makes the whiney people amongst them think that they're solving the world's "problems," or because they think it's good for their "health," or because it makes them "feel good" about themselves. They walk because walking is practical (at their income level).

Back when I was flat-out broke, Kombat Kroger was a twice-weekly one-kilometer walk each direction to buy frozen pizza and malt liquor. It was open late, which was fantastic. And it carried everything I needed. There's nothing that I buy now at the Garden Oaks Kroger that I didn't buy at Kombat Kroger for the same price. Plus, the older store is laid out more efficiently, lines are usually very manageable, and the prices are exactly the same. Everything about it is better. Especially the people that are willing to shop there, as they are either willfully or cluelessly unfashionable. I never had to worry about being judged for having a deoderant-encrusted gaping hole in the armpit of my t-shirt. They were my people. I miss it.

And now, here, at either the Garden Oaks or Heights Krogers (neither of which I can walk to, and nary a liquor store), I am confronted with...a vast quantity of plastic people. It sucks.

[KinkaidAlum]

I've been back in Boston this week to sell my condo. I've been here all week and haven't been in a car yet. I've visited friends, my old workplace, my lawyer's office, my realtor's office for the closing, to the DMV in Chinatown, to multiple restaurants, and even to Fenway for a game.

There's a part of me that misses it.

That said, I walk in Houston too. I can't reach the number of places I can in Boston by foot, but I still prefer Houston more. Why? Because having personal auto access allows me to have MUCH great mobility. There are so many places in Boston I simply stopped going to because they were too far to walk to (or the snow/rain/sleet/heat- yeah, it hit 103 here last week persuaded me to stay in) or there'd be no parking (or valet for the cost of a meal in Houston).

I like having the option. I can walk to Rice Village or Hermann Park/Museums or I can drive to anywhere else I'd want to go. POINT: HOUSTON.

[editor]

The entire argument is flawed because it assumes that in high density areas, people continue to live far away from their jobs, as they do in low density areas.

The more workers in a household, the more drivers, and the more drivers, the more miles.

This is inherently untrue. The greater the density, the greater the opportunities for people to live close enough to their jobs that they can walk and get rid of their cars.

You should see 5:00pm in downtown Chicago. Thousands of people streaming across the bridges on foot and bicycle to get to their homes in nearby neighborhoods. It looks like one of those nature films of zebra herds crossing the African savannah.

If the author's premise was correct, there wouldn't be 90,000+ working adults in Chicago who don't own a car. Probably hundreds of thousands more in New York (I have a couple of relatives in New York who have never needed to get a drivers license), and millions in Tokyo and other large cities. I can think of 11 people off the top of my head who are suit-and-tie kind of office workers who don't own a car.

[The Pragmatist]

I saw this on a Yahoo article, and it seemed relevant to this thread. It's a website that gives a score for the "walkability" of cities in the US.

http://www.walkscore.com/rankings/?page=1

[Utinga]

http://www.thumbprojects.com/index.php?/recent/ring-roads-of-the-world/

FYI

[fatesdisastr]

http://www.thumbproj...s-of-the-world/

FYI

I'm can't quite understand what the ring roads survey is actually saying about Houston. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[TheNiche]

I'm can't quite understand what the ring roads survey is actually saying about Houston. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Yes, I sure can. It is a graphic created by local architecture students. It is pretty and Houston's is biggest. That is the point. (It does not matter that their list is incomplete.)

[editor]

I saw this on a Yahoo article, and it seemed relevant to this thread. It's a website that gives a score for the "walkability" of cities in the US.

http://www.walkscore.com/rankings/?page=1

I have found that Walkscore can be wildly inaccurate. It will sometimes count porno galleries as bookstores and many times businesses that are long gone will still count toward a neighborhood's score. Worse, it doesn't take into account topography, weather, obstacles (freeways, train tracks, canals) or other very significant factors.

I've lived in places that have gotten Walkscores in the 90's, but I would never dream of living without a car in them.

[samagon]

Technically, I think they are called graphic novels ...

[The Pragmatist]

I have found that Walkscore can be wildly inaccurate. It will sometimes count porno galleries as bookstores and many times businesses that are long gone will still count toward a neighborhood's score. Worse, it doesn't take into account topography, weather, obstacles (freeways, train tracks, canals) or other very significant factors.

I've lived in places that have gotten Walkscores in the 90's, but I would never dream of living without a car in them.

Haha. Forget Barnes & Noble and Borders (RIP). Walkscore already knows that all the greatest literary minds the world over demonstrate their prowess at 24/7 Adult Megaplexxx.

[samagon]

Are you kidding me? The East End is so walkable that people actually do so...and not just because walking makes the whiney people amongst them think that they're solving the world's "problems," or because they think it's good for their "health," or because it makes them "feel good" about themselves. They walk because walking is practical (at their income level)

wasn't trying to say ee isn't walkable, because it is very mobile for walking, cycling, and other forms of non car transit. was just saying, the kroger is out of my walkable distance, but that is ok, cause there's lots of other options.

[Utinga]

Yes, I sure can. It is a graphic created by local architecture students. It is pretty and Houston's is biggest. That is the point. (It does not matter that their list is incomplete.)

Sorry about not qualifiing. The only rings (it is pretty huh? lol) I was interested in were Houston's compared to Cities with same or larger populations and their footprints. e.g. Tokyo. Not aware of any fully complete study on any thing, as history is still being written.

[Utinga]

Haha. Forget Barnes & Noble and Borders (RIP). Walkscore already knows that all the greatest literary minds the world over demonstrate their prowess at 24/7 Adult Megaplexxx.

This is a great example of how studies (numbers) can make outcomes look. I also saw one that had Houston beat-out Denver. Weather was never taken into account. Plug that into the equation and there may be a different outcome. Not sure if they were using downtowns tunnel system either. I suspect if we were to take only the tunnel into account, we may be the most walkable city anywhere.

[Utinga]

This is a great example of how studies (numbers) can make outcomes look. I also saw one that had Houston beat-out Denver. Weather was never taken into account. Plug that into the equation and there may be a different outcome. Not sure if they were using downtowns tunnel system either. I suspect if we were to take only the tunnel into account, we may be the most walkable city anywhere.

Oops, sorry editor, didn't see your comment about the weather. So true.

[WesternGulf]

These days there are forces that create density rather than the necessity for it that existed in pre war times. Zoned and regulated land use that creates higher land value forces developers to make the most use of their footprint. That usually means incorporating and mixing recreation, housing, work or any other activity that subsidizes the expense of their available land. If this concept is repetitive in a certain area, density will follow and so will congestion and more drivers. In a perfect world, in an urban planning sense, more vehicular congestion will increase the demand for alternative transportation which surfaces more pedestrians in an environment and hopefully more sustainable modes of transport become more efficient and practical.