The SOB may finally get executed today

[wernicke]

But for the record of the 410 people executed since the reinstatment of the death penalty the numbers are:

180 Black

162 White

62 Hispanic

Just for the sake of arguments based on sound logic, you do realize that absolute numbers don't mean a thing...

State of Texas Demographics

White 82.7% (Includes Hispanic/Latin at 35% and White non-Hispanic at 48%)

Black 11.9%

[memebag]

Medellin shouldn't have been here to begin with! That's the big white elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about.

Uh, what planet are you on? I can't go a day without hearing someone talk tough on immigration.

Yes, I am for shipping em out and building a wall to rival the Great Wall of China!

And I'm proud of it!

Who's gonna pick your veggies?

[Mark F. Barnes]

Just for the sake of arguments based on sound logic, you do realize that absolute numbers don't mean a thing...

State of Texas Demographics

White 82.7% (Includes Hispanic/Latin at 35% and White non-Hispanic at 48%)

Black 11.9%

Not sure what your link and numbers correlate to in regards to my point, which is, Texas is an equal opportunity executioner. Race has nothing to do with it. You do the crime you get the juice, simple as that. Over all demographics of the state has what bearing on that? If you want to compare demographics, narrow it down to the prison population, or convicted felons, or something more relevant.

In short I think absolute numbers do mean something. it means that out of the 410 people executed since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 180 were Black, 162 were White, and 62 were Hispanic. That's it in a nutshell, was it suppose to mean something else?

[Disastro]

Uh, what planet are you on? I can't go a day without hearing someone talk tough on immigration.

Who's gonna pick your veggies?

Here's an idea: Create an environment in the country where legal citizens who NEED those jobs will do them. Get rid of all this unconditional welfare and make picking veggies part of the condition for receiveing the bennies. How about about getting prisoners to pick them?

Oh, there's all kinds of ways to make our society work...if only people had the will.

This country, over 200 years, wasn't built on the backs of illegals. How did we make that happen?

[memebag]

In short I think absolute numbers do mean something. it means that out of the 410 people executed since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 180 were Black, 162 were White, and 62 were Hispanic. That's it in a nutshell, was it suppose to mean something else?

It sure looks like your chances of being executed are much higher if you're black.

Here's an idea: Create an environment in the country where legal citizens who NEED those jobs will do them. Get rid of all this unconditional welfare and make picking veggies part of the condition for receiveing the bennies. How about about getting prisoners to pick them?

Oh, there's all kinds of ways to make our society work...if only people had the will.

This country, over 200 years, wasn't built on the backs of illegals. How did we make that happen?

You're right, it was built by people who made up their own laws so that they would be her legally and get all the land. Well, them and their slaves.

You really think US citizens were better off when they did all their own migrant farm work? You don't see how your plan would fuel inflation by raising the cost of food production?

[cottonmather0]

It sure looks like your chances of being executed are much higher if you're black.

I think the missing link here is a.) the crime rate and b.) the conviction rate, which aren't necessarily the same thing and statistically have nothing to do with the demographics of the general population.

If blacks are truly committing capital crimes at a higher rate than whites, then the execution rate isn't necessarily out of whack, but it's very hard to prove that they're not being disproportionately convicted - or even charged - compared to whites and other groups.

I personally have faith that our justice system is "equal opportunity," as Mark says, and that the disproportionate conviction rate is just an illustration of a disproportionate crime rate between blacks and other groups, but that is my personal opinion and I know that there are plenty of data and good faith believers on the other side.

[Fringe]

It sure looks like your chances of being executed are much higher if you're black.

Look at the demographics in Houston and see what areas have the most crime. Easy to spot. Just look and see what areas have the most burglar bars.

[Daniepwils]

personally have faith that our justice system is "equal opportunity," as Mark says, and that the disproportionate conviction rate is just an illustration of a disproportionate crime rate between blacks and other groups, but that is my personal opinion and I know that there are plenty of data and good faith believers on the other side.

I agree I don't think it is racial, it is more financial. The better off you are the better your chances are in our legal system, and also who you know helps too.

[Disastro]

It sure looks like your chances of being executed are much higher if you're black.

You're right, it was built by people who made up their own laws so that they would be her legally and get all the land. Well, them and their slaves.

You really think US citizens were better off when they did all their own migrant farm work? You don't see how your plan would fuel inflation by raising the cost of food production?

I'll overlook the cheapshot with regard to the slaves comment as I don't have time to write a full essay on this subject right now, but nations are always stronger when they manufacture their own steel (for example) and grow their own food.

I just strongly believe this country should be self-reliant and not give those who have no allegiance to this country (or desire to become Americans) in.

At the least, it's a security risk.

[memebag]

I'll overlook the cheapshot with regard to the slaves comment as I don't have time to write a full essay on this subject right now, but nations are always stronger when they manufacture their own steel (for example) and grow their own food.

It wasn't a cheap shot. This nation was built in large part with slave labor. We got rid of slavery, but not the need for cheap labor.

I just strongly believe this country should be self-reliant and not give those who have no allegiance to this country (or desire to become Americans) in.

OK, let's say we block all illegal immigration and deport all illegals tomorrow. How do you think business will respond? They currently rely on cheap labor to compete with foreign products and offer good at prices US consumers can afford. Do you think they will raise prices? Move production out of the US? Close up shop?

[Orikal]

He's been on death row longer then one of the girls he savagely tortured lived her life. Thank god we have a governor with some balls that recognized the UN as the joke that they are. Now let's get it over with so the victim

[Rammer]

I ride in the park most mornings, and I've always wondered what those 2 memorials were.

Yesterday evening, my wife and I stopped by them to pay our respects. There were flowers and lit candles everywhere.

How very, very sad.

Info: The memorial is NOT located at the site of the rapes or murders.

The rapes occurred near the train tracks on the WEST side of the bayou.

The girls were then murdered about 10 yards north (in the woods) on the WEST side of the bayou.

This is why it took so long to find them...the bodies were NOT located along the shortcut.

The memorial was located on the EAST side of the bayou so that more people could view it from TC Jester park.

[Orikal]

Info: The memorial is NOT located at the site of the rapes or murders.

The rapes occurred near the train tracks on the WEST side of the bayou.

The girls were then murdered about 10 yards north (in the woods) on the WEST side of the bayou.

This is why it took so long to find them...the bodies were NOT located along the shortcut.

The memorial was located on the EAST side of the bayou so that more people could view it from TC Jester park.

Thanks for the info.

[Disastro]

It wasn't a cheap shot. This nation was built in large part with slave labor. We got rid of slavery, but not the need for cheap labor.

OK, let's say we block all illegal immigration and deport all illegals tomorrow. How do you think business will respond? They currently rely on cheap labor to compete with foreign products and offer good at prices US consumers can afford. Do you think they will raise prices? Move production out of the US? Close up shop?

Well, there's more to it than just de portation and blocking. Some things would have to change culturally for those left behind as well. If we just deported and put up the wall, yeah, production might move out of the US. However, I'll gladly go on the record as saying I'd be willing to pay more to have an all-legal workforce here (I know I am not alone).

How about you?

Maybe if they put high school kids and people sitting around doing nothing into these jobs then the price may not be as high as you think it would be.

[memebag]

How about you?

I think we need to fix our immigration policy. We need to drastically increase the quotas, make it easier to get work visas and all that jazz. Once that's done, I'm OK with stepping up enforcement.

Maybe if they put high school kids and people sitting around doing nothing into these jobs then the price may not be as high as you think it would be.

They'd still have to pay minimum wage, and that's why prices would go up. Illegal labor is cheap labor, and that's at the foundation of our economic system. My company doesn't hire illegal aliens, but it uses services and products from companies that do. Start paying minimum wage for all of that and my company would have to raise its prices. So would all of them.

I don't have a solution for that. I think eventually we'll see a big decline in our standard of living, one way or the other. Work is going to go where muscles and brains are cheap, and it isn't going to respect national boundaries.

[Vertigo58]

Public castration...Hellooooo!

Use a guillotine.

Then toss them into a hardcore jail cell full of desperate "love hungry" cons.

That's a start.

[Disastro]

I think we need to fix our immigration policy. We need to drastically increase the quotas, make it easier to get work visas and all that jazz. Once that's done, I'm OK with stepping up enforcement.

They'd still have to pay minimum wage, and that's why prices would go up. Illegal labor is cheap labor, and that's at the foundation of our economic system. My company doesn't hire illegal aliens, but it uses services and products from companies that do. Start paying minimum wage for all of that and my company would have to raise its prices. So would all of them.

I don't have a solution for that. I think eventually we'll see a big decline in our standard of living, one way or the other. Work is going to go where muscles and brains are cheap, and it isn't going to respect national boundaries.

"it isn't going to respect national boundaries."

Yeah, that's the problem.

All things change...all this cheap labor isn't necessarily going to stay cheap once these workers figure out they're getting screwed on minimum wage, bennies and such. Eventually, they'll want those too.

So, we might as well figure out a way to maximize the employ-ability of those who are legal citizens of this country.

I haven't even touched on the danger of "Balkanization" -- and the goals of groups like Azatlan, La Raza...and the like.

I don't think the US owes it to the world (Mexico) to be their employment agency or be an international "purge valve" for Mexico's corruption and inability to keep it's people gainfully employed (which is truly mind-boggling considering how rich Mexico is in oil and natural resources).

Public castration...Hellooooo!

Use a guillotine.

Then toss them into a hardcore jail cell full of desperate "love hungry" cons.

That's a start.

What...thaaaaa....???

[memebag]

All things change...all this cheap labor isn't necessarily going to stay cheap once these workers figure out they're getting screwed on minimum wage, bennies and such. Eventually, they'll want those too.

They want them now, they just can't get them because of our immigration quotas.

So, we might as well figure out a way to maximize the employ-ability of those who are legal citizens of this country.

What does that mean?

I don't think the US owes it to the world (Mexico) to be their employment agency or be an international "purge valve" for Mexico's corruption and inability to keep it's people gainfully employed (which is truly mind-boggling considering how rich Mexico is in oil and natural resources).

Who said the US owed that to Mexico?

[RedScare]

"it isn't going to respect national boundaries."

Yeah, that's the problem.

Only a problem for Nationalists and xenophobes, not for Capitalists. In a free market, barriers to trade...including borders...are lowered. Strict immigration policy is the enemy of free markets. It is precisely this concept that makes the immigration debate largely a debate within the GOP, as opposed to nationwide. The nationalist faction of the GOP is at odds with the pro-business faction of the GOP. Witness GWB and John McCain's support for new immigration policies that allowed workers to stay versus Tom Tancredo and others screaming that it was "Amnesty".

[Disastro]

Only a problem for Nationalists and xenophobes, not for Capitalists. In a free market, barriers to trade...including borders...are lowered. Strict immigration policy is the enemy of free markets. It is precisely this concept that makes the immigration debate largely a debate within the GOP, as opposed to nationwide. The nationalist faction of the GOP is at odds with the pro-business faction of the GOP. Witness GWB and John McCain's support for new immigration policies that allowed workers to stay versus Tom Tancredo and others screaming that it was "Amnesty".

Yeah, well, I'm not a globalist. Capitalism can thrive within the borders of the US. All this globalism is a bunch of bunk with a darker agenda in mind. It doesn't end with "trade".

America first -- always!

Tancredo is/was right. Where does it end? There's always going to be an excuse why we should keep the floodgates open. I'm for closing them. And for lots of good, valid reasons.

It's got to end. But, I would be willing to bet we see armed insurgencies from Mexico in the Southwest US before it does. Come to think about it...how about those Mexican soldiers crossing the border and holding border agents at gunpoint?

Oh yeahhhh...let's have more of THAT! Or worse.

[wernicke]

Not sure what your link and numbers correlate to in regards to my point, which is, Texas is an equal opportunity executioner.

It seems rather obvious, to me at least, that when a segment represents 11% of the general population and accounts for 44% of executions that some bias exists in the system.

I do agree that the bias is primarily financial (think OJ), less racial, in terms of capital murder cases.

But everyone is fooling themselves if they think the police and justice system in general is not tilted against blacks (ie. racial profiling by police, treatment of white collar crime vs. drug-related offenses, crack vs. cocaine offenses, people receiving probation vs. jail time for similar crimes, substance abuse program enrollment disparities, etc). Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice site, with statistics.

[RedScare]

Yeah, well, I'm not a globalist. Capitalism can thrive within the borders of the US. All this globalism is a bunch of bunk with a darker agenda in mind. It doesn't end with "trade".

That is very much a plank of the Democratic Party. The GOP powers that be (and John McCain) support free trade and NAFTA, which requires open borders. This is precisely why immigration is a "GOP problem", not a Democratic one. I suppose you should re-examine your political beliefs, and decide which party "really" supports your views.

[Disastro]

That is very much a plank of the Democratic Party. The GOP powers that be (and John McCain) support free trade and NAFTA, which requires open borders. This is precisely why immigration is a "GOP problem", not a Democratic one. I suppose you should re-examine your political beliefs, and decide which party "really" supports your views.

Oh, there are some things I agree with Democrats on...no doubt...

I can't say "Democrat bad. Republican good." The lines have actually blurred quite a bit.

But, I don't hear Obama or Pelosi, et. al...talking about doing anything about illegal immigation though.

[RedScare]

Oh, there are some things I agree with Democrats on...no doubt...

I can't say "Democrat bad. Republican good." The lines have actually blurred quite a bit.

But, I don't hear Obama or Pelosi, et. al...talking about doing anything about illegal immigation though.

Exactly. They don't have a dog in this hunt. The general Democratic view is interesting, as well, since there is some anti-free trade sentiment and pro-immigration stance...exactly opposite the competing GOP views. However, Democratic emotions on immigration and free trade are not as strong as on the Republican side. The Democrats have wisely decided to sit on the sideline while the Republicans eat their own.

As is often the case, the best solution is a combination of the various views. There are WAY too few visas being issued, and they take WAY too long to get, causing problems for agricultural and construction interests. "Border security" without visa reform will only harm the economy further. But, the xenophobic faction (Lou Dobbs) of the "border security" crowd is drowning out the legitimate and rational concerns, making a comprehensive solution difficult. For all of my gripes about Bush...and I am one of his biggest critics...his proposal was fairly balanced, which is precisely why it was shouted down.

[TheNiche]

This country, over 200 years, wasn't built on the backs of illegals. How did we make that happen?

Abject poverty, and slavery before that.

[TheNiche]

Yeah, well, I'm not a globalist. Capitalism can thrive within the borders of the US. All this globalism is a bunch of bunk with a darker agenda in mind. It doesn't end with "trade".

America first -- always!

America should come first. Therefore we must ensure that globalization can progress unencumbered by those ignorant of the fact that capitalism and free trade is not zero-sum.

[TheNiche]

There are WAY too few visas being issued, and they take WAY too long to get, causing problems for agricultural and construction interests.

More than that, its a problem in higher-wage sectors such as engineering and medicine, where qualified foreign labor is abundant but can't be efficiently imported because visas are so difficult to obtain. More than even the unskilled labor, we need those people in order to grow our economy.

[RedScare]

More than that, its a problem in higher-wage sectors such as engineering and medicine, where qualified foreign labor is abundant but can't be efficiently imported because visas are so difficult to obtain. More than even the unskilled labor, we need those people in order to grow our economy.

Agree completely. I merely focused on the lower end migrant visas, since that is the sector populated by low skill Mexicans that are the face of the immigration debate. Once again, buzzword politics corners the political debate, and pragmatism gets the short shrift. I guess the good news is that none of the xenophobes got nominated, so either candidate might suggest a pragmatic approach. Kinda depends on whether the new McCain or the old one takes office, and whether Obama is for free trade or against it.

[cottonmather0]

I agree I don't think it is racial, it is more financial.

Agreed to a point when it comes to "minor" crimes, but I don't know if it's the case that capital crimes are committed equally across income groups. It's not like there are gang raping murdering CEO's in River Oaks right now who aren't on death row just because they were able to afford a good lawyer (although this being HAIF, I'm sure someone will post a link to one ).

If you do something that horrific it kind of doesn't matter how good your lawyer is. Certainly there are poor people who serve more time for DWI's and the like than people who can afford expensive trial lawyers, but I'm not sure if that disparity carries over to capital crimes.

[RedScare]

Agreed to a point when it comes to "minor" crimes, but I don't know if it's the case that capital crimes are committed equally across income groups. It's not like there are gang raping murdering CEO's in River Oaks right now who aren't on death row just because they were able to afford a good lawyer (although this being HAIF, I'm sure someone will post a link to one ).

If you do something that horrific it kind of doesn't matter how good your lawyer is. Certainly there are poor people who serve more time for DWI's and the like than people who can afford expensive trial lawyers, but I'm not sure if that disparity carries over to capital crimes.

The unequal application of the death penalty is not alleged simply because of the number of Blacks on Death Row. In any given crime that meets the definition of Capital Murder, the DA has two choices, to ask a jury for a death sentence, or to proceed as a "non-death" capital murder, where the maximum penalty is life in prison. Numerous studies of all cases where the death penalty COULD have been sought suggest that DAs decide to seek death far more often against Blacks than against Whites.

There are numerous reasons why a DA would not seek the death penalty. The most common is the massive expense incurred by a county that seeks the death penalty against a defendant. Much more investigation, preparation and time must be invested in death cases, swelling the cost considerably. The type of capital murder, and the facts of the case also come into play. Some murders just turn the stomach more than others. Finally, the prior criminal history of the defendant is considered.

Since a racist prosecutor would never admit to being racist, one must look elsewhere to find the tendencies. The simple facts are that prosecutors make the decision...for whatever reason...to seek death against Blacks far more often than against Whites. To claim that there is never consideration of race in deciding to seek the death penalty flies in the face of these facts. It is certainly not the case in every prosecution, and there are certainly DAs who apply the law evenly. But, just as surely as there are dedicated and colorblind DAs, there are also some racist ones who apply the law unevenly. To suggest otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest.